Motorin' Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Chef Jim said: Well I don’t understand this. Not only is there still a Camden NJ police department but there are more officers than before it was disbanded. This article explains. Reading between the lines, disbanding the police department breaks the back of the unions that stand in the way of reform and accountability. Camden disbanded their department and reconstructed a new one. Minneapolis city council is planning on disbanding the current police force and following a similar path as Camden: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ 3 1
Reality Check Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 I fully support Sheriff's departments as they are Constitutional Officers. The rest, I don't care about them. I will enjoy from a safe distance these new social experiments. Let the games begin!
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Motorin' said: This article explains. Reading between the lines, disbanding the police department breaks the back of the unions that stand in the way of reform and accountability. Camden disbanded their department and reconstructed a new one. Minneapolis city council is planning on disbanding the current police force and following a similar path as Camden: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ 2019’s reigning murder capital of New Jersey *winning* 1
billsfan1959 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, meazza said: Are we against unions now ? Apparently, only police unions 1
Tiberius Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 5 hours ago, Motorin' said: This article explains. Reading between the lines, disbanding the police department breaks the back of the unions that stand in the way of reform and accountability. Camden disbanded their department and reconstructed a new one. Minneapolis city council is planning on disbanding the current police force and following a similar path as Camden: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ When Camden, New Jersey’s Chief of Police J. Scott Thomson joined the Camden police force as an officer 25 years ago, there were 175 open-air drug markets lining just nine square miles of streets. The murder rates in this city of 75,000 just across the Delaware River from Philadelphia regularly climbed to more than six times the national average. “Criminals operated with impunity,” Thomson said. After a particularly deadly year in 1995, Camden’s Cathedral of Immaculate Conception began illuminating one candle for each homicide victim. In 2012, the year ended with 67 candles—a rate of about 87 murders per 100,000 residents, which ranked Camden fifth nationwide. But on New Year’s 2018, just 22 candles were lit: The city’s murder rate fell to its lowest since 1987. The number of annual killings has been in decline since 2012; so have robberies, aggravated assaults, violent crimes, property crimes, and non-fatal shooting incidents. So what’s happening in this city, which for many years has been deemed among the dangerous in America? Thomson, who took the helm of the Camden police force in 2008, says the biggest factor may have been the change in structure of the department itself. In 2013, the Camden Police Department was disbanded, reimagined, and born again as the Camden County Police Department, with more officers at lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.” That meant focusing on rebuilding trust between the community 1
Tux of Borg Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 Disbanding the Camden police department was union busting. Nothing more, nothing less. Camden County Police is what covers the area now. The neighboring agencies simply refer to it as “the metro”. They have such a high turn over that their training officers (FTOs) only have 6 months on the road. Their crime stat reporting is suspect as best, changing domestics into “property removal” calls. All this to say, this isn’t a real solution. 1 1
GG Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 8 hours ago, Margarita said: I can’t speak to that I know they had horrible crime issues before if it’s not worse now that’s an improvement right? The article explains what they did and it shows positive reviews. If what they did worked in a place like Camden I don’t know why it couldn’t be replicated. Did you read the link? Did you & the other disband/defund police proponents read the article? Everyone is applauding the precedent, but it was more of an administrative move to disband the union and get MORE cops on the street. Here are the operative punchlines: Quote The following year, the city's police department was disbanded and replaced with a new one covering Camden County that had more officers, but on lower pay, according to a City Lab report. Thomson said the focus was on rebuilding trust between the city's residents and officers. He told Bloomberg that increasing the number of officers on the city's streets had been a "trust-building tactic." As well as a rise in the number of non-crisis interactions between police and residents, he said officers also underwent de-escalation training and got body cameras. 1
Johnnycage46 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 54 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Apparently, only police unions For now... 1 1
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Capco said: They fired all of the officers via abolishing their department, then allowed all of the former officers to apply to be rehired under new, more selective criteria. This allowed them to snuff out the bad officers and hire new ones. In the process, their police force served the community better and expanded at the same time. A reduction in law enforcement isn't always what "abolish the police" actually means. If only people knew more... I understand the process they used My point is they have MORE police than before the restructure. Do you think maybe that’s why crime is down? And I love how the progressives are redefining words. Newspeak at it’s finest. Restructuring equals defunding. Not protesting equals racist. 6 hours ago, Motorin' said: This article explains. Reading between the lines, disbanding the police department breaks the back of the unions that stand in the way of reform and accountability. Camden disbanded their department and reconstructed a new one. Minneapolis city council is planning on disbanding the current police force and following a similar path as Camden: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/ Then why do they call it defunding? 2
SoCal Deek Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, meazza said: Are we against unions now ? You gotta love it when these newly minted woke little communists riot (I mean peacefully protest)against organized labor. They’re so cute, you just wanna hug ‘em! 2
Doc Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 Get rid of the bad police officers and maybe the union? Go for it. I doubt many, other than those who are pro-union, will disagree with it. 1 1
Gary M Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said: Apparently, only police unions Well Cuomo is doing his best to piss off the teachers also. 1
billsfan1959 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: When Camden, New Jersey’s Chief of Police J. Scott Thomson joined the Camden police force as an officer 25 years ago, there were 175 open-air drug markets lining just nine square miles of streets. The murder rates in this city of 75,000 just across the Delaware River from Philadelphia regularly climbed to more than six times the national average. “Criminals operated with impunity,” Thomson said. After a particularly deadly year in 1995, Camden’s Cathedral of Immaculate Conception began illuminating one candle for each homicide victim. In 2012, the year ended with 67 candles—a rate of about 87 murders per 100,000 residents, which ranked Camden fifth nationwide. But on New Year’s 2018, just 22 candles were lit: The city’s murder rate fell to its lowest since 1987. The number of annual killings has been in decline since 2012; so have robberies, aggravated assaults, violent crimes, property crimes, and non-fatal shooting incidents. So what’s happening in this city, which for many years has been deemed among the dangerous in America? Thomson, who took the helm of the Camden police force in 2008, says the biggest factor may have been the change in structure of the department itself. In 2013, the Camden Police Department was disbanded, reimagined, and born again as the Camden County Police Department, with more officers at lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.” That meant focusing on rebuilding trust between the community - When Camden "reconceptualized" their police force, the PRIMARY change they made was to increase the number of officers by 56% - Community policing has been going on in communities across this country for years - Most officers on the street across the country are in their regular uniforms, not riot gear - Officers have always been "trained to use handguns and handcuffs only as tools of last resort" - The crime rate across the country has been decreasing for years - This is a chart of the violent crime rate per 100,000 people for Camden, from 2012-2017 (the year the article speaks of): https://www.nj.com/camden/2018/01/camdens_2017_murder_rate_was_the_lowest_in_decades.html - They stayed fairly steady from 2014 - 2017. 2018- 2019, while not on the chart, are in the same range. - They talk about how the number of murders dropped; however, they failed to mention that the murder rate is still much higher than the national average. - They talk about how the violent crime rate has dropped; however, they failed to mention that the violent crime rate is the highest of any city in NJ and almost 4 times the national average For example, the violent crime rate, per 100,000 people: Camden US 2012 1992 388 2013 1950 379 2014 1550 372 2015 1520 384 2016 1571 397 2017 1467 394 Your chance of being a victim of a violent crime in Camden has been, and remains, higher than most places in this country. The article references Camden's standing on NeighborhoodScout’s Most Dangerous Cities, which is a website ranking the dangerousness of cities over 25,000 people. Here is Camden's rankings for 2012-2020 2012 5 2013 2 2014 3 2015 1 2016 2 2017 4 2018 4 2019 8 2020 10 (projected) Edited June 9, 2020 by billsfan1959 1
Tiberius Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 15 hours ago, Capco said: I believe the key to fixing black-on-black violence and crime in black communities is to fix black poverty. The poverty rate for the whole country is 11.8%. For whites, the rate is 8.1%, and for blacks, the rate is a whopping 20.8%. http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html Some might say "well the reason so many blacks are in poverty is because so many are committing crimes and spending time in jail" but in fact the opposite is true. The reason so many blacks commit violent crime is because so many are trapped in poverty because of systemic, passive racism. Remember in our country that public school districts are locally funded. If your community is dirt poor, your high school is almost certain to become a drop out factory. This can affect Americans of all colors, but again due to decades of system racism in the economy, this ends up disproportionately affecting black economic outcomes in predominantly black communities. One thing I would like to see is to replace school taxes with a system of federal funding for all public school districts. Each student in the country should be allotted the same amount of funding with respect to regional cost-of-living differences or Purchasing Power Parity. There shouldn't be such massive public education outcome differences in an egalitarian country like our own. Otherwise, you are left in the situation we are currently in that is more akin to "quasi-public" schools. Imagine there's an excellent school district in your locale with fantastic outcomes. It's public, which means it's free at the point of delivery to all those who attend. But what's the caveat to attend? Well, you have to live in the district... and in this case living in the district almost invariably means owning a +$1 million home. Combine the property tax method with the value of those all those million dollar homes, and you might have several times the amount of money to spend per student than those districts that are dirt poor. The public school system in America as it stands today has financial barriers to entry, which runs counter to why public education was conceived in the first place (i.e. the Enlightenment philosophes believed that education was for everyone, not just the rich). tl;dr: Poverty causes crime. Education lifts people out of poverty. Eliminating/reducing poverty lowers crime rates, increases tax revenues, lowers the need for lifelong public assistance, decreases the need for militarized police, and can help put an end to active racial discrimination. And I didn't blame any one side or political party. Thanks for this. So true that education resources are not equal. But I can't say that fixing that will be a magic bullet that solves poverty. All problems and solutions start in the home. If a child grows up around violence, ignorance and substance abuse then the chances of that child growing into a solid citizen diminish greatly. The black experience in America has not been one to foster healthy social environments. The weight of history on the backs is pretty heavy and you don;'t just unring the bell of oppression overnight. The racist love it that blacks have so many social problems and want to use their favorite ploy of blaming the victim. Hopefully the times are changing and there will be more room for trial and error where every failure won't automatically be a successful tool for the right to scream their heads off and have people listen to them. Let them scream, but ignore them. But how the hell do you break the cycle of poverty? Education is important, yes. So is decent affordable housing which is a situation wildly difficult to deal with for so many reasons in a city. The countryside can just lay out some more trailer parks. The war on drugs has been a disaster for many Americans. Once you have a police record many doors for advancement are closed to that person. More experimentation with dealing with the drug problem needs to happen. Every child born in America needs to a healthy and safe environment to grow. That is not happening right now. There should be a New Deal for children and have a huge investment in social services. This would not be easy or clear cut, but through trial and error they could create a system that could do a better job of keeping an eye on children at risk, promoting reading, nutrition, exercise and better parenting practices. The military has been a great anti-poverty program. Over the last five decades or so millions of young people have left home to see a new world and gained mightily from the experience. There should be something else like a jobs corp to get at the young people and do the same building a better America. 3
Tiberius Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: - When Camden "reconceptualized" their police force, the PRIMARY change they made was to increase the number of officers by 56% - Community policing has been going on in communities across this country for years - Most officers on the street across the country are in their regular uniforms, not riot gear - Officers have always been "trained to use handguns and handcuffs only as tools of last resort" - The crime rate across the country has been decreasing for years - This is a chart of the violent crime rate per 100,000 people for Camden, from 2012-2017 (the year the article speaks of): https://www.nj.com/camden/2018/01/camdens_2017_murder_rate_was_the_lowest_in_decades.html - They stayed fairly steady from 2014 - 2017. 2018- 2019, while not on the chart, are in the same range. - They talk about how the number of murders dropped; however, they failed to mention that the murder rate is still much higher than the national average. - They talk about how the violent crime rate has dropped; however, they failed to mention that the violent crime rate is the highest of any city in NJ and almost 4 times the national average For example, the violent crime rate, per 100,000 people: Camden US 2012 1992 388 2013 1950 379 2014 1550 372 2015 1520 384 2016 1571 397 2017 1467 394 Your chance of being a victim of a violent crime in Camden has been, and remains, higher than most places in this country. The article references Camden's standing on NeighborhoodScout’s Most Dangerous Cities, which is a website ranking the dangerousness of cities over 25,000 people. Here is Camden's rankings for 2012-2020 2012 5 2013 2 2014 3 2015 1 2016 2 2017 4 2018 4 2019 8 2020 10 (projected) Sounds like they fired the bad cops the union protected and rehired the good ones back. Seems to have made a major impact 1
Tiberius Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Jaraxxus said: They've tried that. It didn't work. Why? No discipline. No disincentive for quitting. No ironclad commitments. That's precisely why the military works for so many people, myself included. When I was a kid, I needed that structure, and that discipline set me up to have a life that's far better tahn it would have been had I not enlisted. Yes, it would have to be done with the power the military has to kick the bad apples out. How many people did you know in the military that were kicked out? I knew a bunch, and we were all better for it.
billsfan1959 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Sounds like they fired the bad cops the union protected and rehired the good ones back. Seems to have made a major impact I don't have a problem with that. I would love to see the Dems support the same thing with the Teacher's Union... Camden is no beacon of "transformative thinking." They essentially increased the police force by 56%.The violent crime rate fell from 2012-2014 and has remained fairly constant since then. However, that violent crime rate is awful.
Tiberius Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jaraxxus said: Not a lot, actually. Maybe one or two in my enlistment. I knew a bunch who got busted down to E-0, though. E-0??? I never heard of that. E-1 was the lowest I knew about, lol. E-0 is pretty funny, though. What a zero!
Chef Jim Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 37 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Sounds like they fired the bad cops the union protected and rehired the good ones back. Seems to have made a major impact So unions are bad now? Dammit where's that ***** playbook?!?!
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