LeviF Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Warcodered said: I guess you just meant the part about the link but you quoted this so I thought you were answering it. Oh ok, if you’re not familiar with UCR it’s a data capture program run by the justice department. It collects data on a multitude of different crimes and gets published by the FBI every year. One of the data sets is LEOKA - Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. Law enforcement agencies (18,000+ participating) report line of duty deaths and assaults to UCR and the program follows up to get as much info as possible. For example they publish data on what weapon was used to kill the officer, was the officer responding to a call or were they doing tactical or special duties etc.
Warcodered Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, LeviF91 said: Oh ok, if you’re not familiar with UCR it’s a data capture program run by the justice department. It collects data on a multitude of different crimes and gets published by the FBI every year. One of the data sets is LEOKA - Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. Law enforcement agencies (18,000+ participating) report line of duty deaths and assaults to UCR and the program follows up to get as much info as possible. For example they publish data on what weapon was used to kill the officer, was the officer responding to a call or were they doing tactical or special duties etc. Right though the original question still stands. 16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So @LeviF91: how is every killing by a police officer tracked and where is that data kept, Nationally?
LeviF Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Right though the original question still stands. Holy ***** I've been reading it wrong this whole time. I thought it said "Of" a police officer and not "by," because that was my original point @Hapless Bills Fan Anyway several organizations have dedicated resources to collecting that data. The Washington Post actually does a pretty good job of it, then there's the NVSS, the Cato Institute, CDC, etc.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, LeviF91 said: Holy ***** I've been reading it wrong this whole time. I thought it said "Of" a police officer and not "by," because that was my original point @Hapless Bills Fan Anyway several organizations have dedicated resources to collecting that data. The Washington Post actually does a pretty good job of it, then there's the NVSS, the Cato Institute, CDC, etc. So just to be sure I'm getting the flick - is the situation, there isn't a National law or justice department database that collects and tracks information on citizens actually killed by police (or injured, or excessive force complaints)? The situation is that it's "left to" a newspaper, and several private organizations - to whom police departments presumably have no mandate or obligation to provide data? Do I have this correct? That seems like a gap to me. Does it seem like a gap to you? I apologize for not addressing your point about LEO killed in the line of duty, which is obviously a very serious point and deserving of attention, but I'd like to understand and discuss the citizen concern for excessive police force and the perception of racial bias in policing, and how that might be addressed here and now.
LeviF Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So just to be sure I'm getting the flick - is the situation, there isn't a National law or justice department database that collects and tracks information on citizens actually killed by police (or injured, or excessive force complaints)? The situation is that it's "left to" a newspaper, and several private organizations - to whom police departments presumably have no mandate or obligation to provide data? Do I have this correct? That seems like a gap to me. Does it seem like a gap to you? I apologize for not addressing your point about LEO killed in the line of duty, which is obviously a very serious point and deserving of attention, but I'd like to understand and discuss the citizen concern for excessive police force and the perception of racial bias in policing, and how that might be addressed here and now. Some law requires law enforcement agencies to report such instances to the justice department. The law escapes me at the moment but the departments’ federal bux are tied to it. What the justice department does with that data...? Last I checked the CDC isn’t a private organization. I brought that up here because if “facts and info” were actually welcomed in this discussion (in general) differential outcomes in crime rates wouldn’t be either A: dismissed out of hand as irrelevant to the point of use of force incidents or B: dismissed as prima facie evidence that the police are racist. Because when you control for violent crime arrests white people (4 in 10,000) are killed more often by police than black people (3 in 10,000). Disproportionate use of force is predicted by disproportionate crime. Full stop. What causes disproportionate crime? A bunch of things that need a lot of work but as law enforcement officers cops are literally just there to enforce laws. Many departments also try to reduce crimes before they happen but strictly speaking that isn’t their responsibility. Law enforcement is reactive by definition. But if someone is going to tell me that racist policies are the cause of disproportionate crimes then you also have to tell me which policies cause 6.5% of the population to be responsible for 38% of murdered cops because I would be extremely interested in dismantling those policies. Literally benefits everyone. So let’s out with it already. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 On 6/9/2020 at 7:58 AM, LeviF91 said: So people can vote their way into a mess, but g-d forbid we make them vote their way out of it? We need unilateral executive action? Is that the argument here? Because, again, that's not how our government works - it being slow is a feature, not a bug. I think the point of current demonstrations and riots are a symptom of frustration at slow (or perception of no) change. What do you think is the point? If people are angry about the horrible death of George Floyd and they perceive it to be a particularly egregious incident caught on tape, but part of a widespread problem they're 'sick and tired of being sick and tired' about....is it appropriate (or justice) to tell them "go back to your homes and vote your way out of it, being slow is a feature"? On 6/9/2020 at 7:58 AM, LeviF91 said: And understand - the "abolish police" crowd is the same crowd that specifically does not want private business to establish their own standards. They're the exact same people that were policing businesses - through naming and shaming - who dared defy the executive authorities when it came to masks, social distancing, etc not even a month ago. See, this is what they really mean by "abolish police" - nobody is accountable except for anybody who stands in the way of their ideology. I have no evidence that this is correct. I think there are a lot of people out in the streets who didn't GAF about whether or not businesses were closed or open. I doubt you have more evidence that these are the "exact same people". On 6/9/2020 at 7:58 AM, LeviF91 said: We have "fix-it tickets" in NY where if you get cited for something like a broken tail light, you get until sundown the next day to fix it. You can either take a receipt from an auto shop showing completed work to your court date or you can go to any police station and ask whoever is at the desk to inspect your vehicle and sign off on the ticket. That sounds like a good system to build on. On 6/9/2020 at 7:58 AM, LeviF91 said: Look, I'm not going to deny that your neighbor or his friends or family have been treated poorly by a cop at one point or another. This isn't necessarily about an excessive force complaint(s), where I would agree with you - and one reason why the LEO's I know are in favor of body-cams!!! but about a lifetime experience of different treatment. The black neighbor I speak of is always employed, auto repair on the side, been married to the same woman since I've known him, has lived across the street from us for 30 some years, raised his kids, now watching his grandkids. He's a good man, mows his neighbor's grass My experience is I can count on one hand the number of times I've been pulled over by police around here, and it's always been no big deal. I got a ticket or a warning or no action at all and went on my way. I think maybe once I got asked a few questions - where I was coming from, where I was going, that kind of thing. One time I was driving with expired tags but actually had the new tags with me in the console and the officer actually put them on for me. My spouse gets pulled over even less often - I was often driving to work or home at 2-3 am which I guess is prime-time for pullovers. Our neighbor's experience is he gets pulled over about 6-7x a year even though he's careful not to speed, and it's always a long drawn out affair with questioning, being told he's not free to go, requests to search the car, been put on the ground and cuffed a couple times. Just very different experience. He's got carseats in his car, baby stuff, no room for a gang of 4 who just robbed a convenience store. When I told him about the tags he laughed (wry "you totally gotta be having me on" laugh) and said "that's Some *****".
LeviF Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think the point of current demonstrations and riots are a symptom of frustration at slow (or perception of no) change. What do you think is the point? If people are angry about the horrible death of George Floyd and they perceive it to be a particularly egregious incident caught on tape, but part of a widespread problem they're 'sick and tired of being sick and tired' about....is it appropriate (or justice) to tell them "go back to your homes and vote your way out of it, being slow is a feature"? So we should bypass the standards of government that are long-held and -established in our nation's heritage because some people are mad that - checks notes - someone got killed? Well, that's what the criminal justice system is for. Justice is this country works a certain way; when the people who are supposed to be agents of that justice do something wrong, they are then subject to the same system they were charged to uphold. The system worked. An accused murderer will get his day in court. I will concede nothing regarding any perceived "problem" in this nation with regard to the way our criminal justice system operates. Here's a doc from one FOP in a particularly awful county - what seems to be a bigger problem here? http://foplodge4.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Presidents-Statement-on-Professionalism.pdf
LeviF Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I have no evidence that this is correct. I think there are a lot of people out in the streets who didn't GAF about whether or not businesses were closed or open. I doubt you have more evidence that these are the "exact same people". Donations to BLM go straight to ActBlue - a Democrat PAC. So, yeah, same people. Also explains why the managing director of blacklivesmatter.com answered exactly zero questions in her AmA about the funds they receive. I didn't mention other things - baking cakes, for example - because they aren't as recent but yeah.
Niagara Bill Posted June 11, 2020 Posted June 11, 2020 So in an effort to help me ( and maybe others), understand the criteria and sensitivity, what is the difference between the movement to ban Gone with the Wind, and period movie, in which the actress playing the maid won the Oscar (first for an African American woman) and the exaltation of Roots? I know Roots showed the struggle from a different perspective, but both showed slavery, and in the case of Roots showed black vs black fighting over the issue. We watch the Ten Commandments and the Egyptians depicts slaves building pyramids. This is a genuine question. Just trying to gain knowledge.
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