Fixing the System - Systemic Racism, the CJ system, Profiting off of incarceration, etc thread - (facts & info for real discussion only)

[Westside]

23 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

Education need not be a PHD.

Smart is not the question, smart in what area is the key, engineer, plumber, 

Store mgr. Trucker, teacher, printer, programmer, farmer, 

Drugs and gangs are easy money and recognition for all youth. 

We need to bring back blue collar work. Add more trade schools and make it easier to join them. 

Stop sending people to prison over petty crimes, like weed. I believe in rent control, make it affordable for a family to have a good, clean safe place to raise their kids. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:59 PM, LeviF91 said:

Tbh I’d rather just be beaten with a nightstick once in a while if it’s all the same 

 

Perhaps this "kink" explains some excessive police use of nightsticks?  That's the personal kink of those officers, so they think they're getting the people they beat off? ?

 

Seriously, I'm not clear how to interpret this.  You'd rather not discuss the "Fixing the System" topic and this is one of those drive-by's where someone comes into a thread just to say "this is a stupid thread that doesn't interest me"?  You'd rather be beat with a nightstick than read the proposals Reed put up? 

 

I'd say "your kink is OK" but at this point, I think people are not going to settle down until some kind of change occurs, and I think change is more likely to be productive when we hear from all viewpoints of people who actually know something - police AND people in the communities

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, westside2 said:

We need to bring back blue collar work. Add more trade schools and make it easier to join them. 

Stop sending people to prison over petty crimes, like weed. I believe in rent control, make it affordable for a family to have a good, clean safe place to raise their kids. 

 

These are very good points.  Infrastructure like public transportation (Washington DC subway) find it hard to hire skilled mechanics.  I've heard the same of other trades - plumbing, wiring, machining, woodwork.  But not sure what you mean by "trade schools".  At least around here, vocational education in HS has become scarce and hard to access, but there are plenty of "technical colleges" which will offer training - for high tuition.  So kids who used to be able to learn auto mechanics or electrical work in school, now have to go into debt for it.

100% agree that stop sending people to prison for petty crimes (weed is the least of it - traffic and civil infractions can become criminalized, jailable offenses if a court date is missed.  Stop sending people to prison for the follow-on to stupid ***** like driving with a busted taillight.

 

Rent control in a vaccum can be problematic, though.  If there are soaring maintenance costs due to vandalism or destructive tenants, it can result in delapidated, unlivable properties.  Pruitt-Igoe here in St Louis was not designed to be a squalid rat-trap

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_110314.html

[Westside]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

These are good points.

 

Rent control in a vaccum can be problematic, though.  If there are soaring maintenance costs due to vandalism or destructive tenants, it can result in delapidated, unlivable properties.  Pruitt-Igoe here in St Louis was not designed to be a squalid rat-trap

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_110314.html

I didn't think of that, I believe in my heart that we as Americans can do something so every family, every person who wants a safe place to live and raise their children. We have to do better as a country. If we can teach kids while they are young what is right and wrong,  that will go a long way to reducing crime, racism and every other ism out there. 

I truly believe we can do it

We have to do it

[Westside]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

These are very good points.  Infrastructure like public transportation (Washington DC subway) find it hard to hire skilled mechanics.  I've heard the same of other trades - plumbing, wiring, machining, woodwork.  But not sure what you mean by "trade schools".  At least around here, vocational education in HS has become scarce and hard to access, but there are plenty of "technical colleges" which will offer training - for high tuition.  So kids who used to be able to learn auto mechanics or electrical work in school, now have to go into debt for it.

100% agree that stop sending people to prison for petty crimes (weed is the least of it - traffic and civil infractions can become criminalized, jailable offenses if a court date is missed.  Stop sending people to prison for the follow-on to stupid ***** like driving with a busted taillight.

 

Rent control in a vaccum can be problematic, though.  If there are soaring maintenance costs due to vandalism or destructive tenants, it can result in delapidated, unlivable properties.  Pruitt-Igoe here in St Louis was not designed to be a squalid rat-trap

https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_110314.html

I agree 100%

You definitely said it much better than I did.

As far as trade schools, growing up (many many years ago) high schools offered classes on everything from becoming a electrician to becoming a mechanic. We need more of that. Not everyone is college material. I know I wasn't. Let's make it easier for the younger generation to succeed and become valuable members of society. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, westside2 said:

I didn't think of that, I believe in my heart that we as Americans can do something so every family, every person who wants a safe place to live and raise their children. We have to do better as a country. If we can teach kids while they are young what is right and wrong,  that will go a long way to reducing crime, racism and every other ism out there. 

I truly believe we can do it

We have to do it

 

So my little story.  When I was a grad student, parking was problematic - distant lots and the neighborhood bad.  The U offered a shuttle service, so if I arrived early or left after most people I would ride the shuttle.  Got to know the am shuttle driver pretty well 'cuz at 6 am we were often the only ones on the bus.

 

She was a single mother of 2, raising her kids alone.  I don't know the back-story there.  Boy of 9, girl of 6.  To make ends meet, she was working 2 jobs and also going to community college trying to better herself.

 

But that meant she would get up at 4 am every day to be on duty at 5 am.  Her 9 year old was in charge of getting his sister up and dressed and ready for school.  She would call them to be sure they were up, and a neighbor would check in and walk them to the bus stop. When they came home, they were on their own until she got off her second job at 6 pm.  Then she'd see them for an hour or so before going to school.

 

I learned all this after I overheard her side of a conversation about a rock.  A rock.  I asked her, if it's not too nosy, would you mind telling me what that was all about?  Evidently the 6 year old had a homework assignment to bring a rock to school for some kind of craft project that, like lots of kids of all economic status all across America, the parent hadn't heard about until the morning just before school.  Except where two-parent homes who are working 1 job apiece have "backup" and someone there with the kids, here this lady was trying to coach the kid on maybe where he could find a rock for his sister without getting into some kind of trouble.  I mean, black child, maybe he's big for his age and looks like a youth, picking up a landscaping rock in front of your yard or maybe on a construction site, the potential for being perceived as bent on vandalism is clear.

Two points:

1) the whole low wage/lack of full time work cycle minimizes the ability of responsible people who are trying to do right by their kids to actually teach and raise them

2) ditto lack of support structure around childrearing in this country.  we depend upon a family structure that's just absent in some communities, especially poor ones

[Westside]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So my little story.  When I was a grad student, parking was problematic - distant lots and the neighborhood bad.  The U offered a shuttle service, so if I arrived early or left after most people I would ride the shuttle.  Got to know the am shuttle driver pretty well 'cuz at 6 am we were often the only ones on the bus.

 

She was a single mother of 2, raising her kids alone.  I don't know the back-story there.  Boy of 9, girl of 6.  To make ends meet, she was working 2 jobs and also going to community college trying to better herself.

 

But that meant she would get up at 4 am every day to be on duty at 5 am.  Her 9 year old was in charge of getting his sister up and dressed and ready for school.  She would call them to be sure they were up, and a neighbor would check in and walk them to the bus stop. When they came home, they were on their own until she got off her second job at 6 pm.  Then she'd see them for an hour or so before going to school.

 

I learned all this after I overheard her side of a conversation about a rock.  A rock.  I asked her, if it's not too nosy, would you mind telling me what that was all about?  Evidently the 6 year old had a homework assignment to bring a rock to school for some kind of craft project that, like lots of kids of all economic status all across America, the parent hadn't heard about until the morning just before school.  Except where two-parent homes who are working 1 job apiece have "backup" and someone there with the kids, here this lady was trying to coach the kid on maybe where he could find a rock for his sister without getting into some kind of trouble.  I mean, black child, maybe he's big for his age and looks like a youth, picking up a landscaping rock in front of your yard or maybe on a construction site, the potential for being perceived as bent on vandalism is clear.

Two points:

1) the whole low wage/lack of full time work cycle minimizes the ability of responsible people who are trying to do right by their kids to actually teach and raise them

2) ditto lack of support structure around childrearing in this country.  we depend upon a family structure that's just absent in some communities, especially poor ones

That's so sad, but unfortunately it's a way of life for millions of single parents. There has to be a better way. I know I'm not smart enough to figure it out, but I know there are plenty of people who are. That's were our tax dollars should go, helping americans have a good life. That story has made me so sad. 

[Gray Beard]

19 minutes ago, westside2 said:

I agree 100%

You definitely said it much better than I did.

As far as trade schools, growing up (many many years ago) high schools offered classes on everything from becoming a electrician to becoming a mechanic. We need more of that. Not everyone is college material. I know I wasn't. Let's make it easier for the younger generation to succeed and become valuable members of society. 

High schools have dropped most technical or vocational programs. In NY, there are technical courses offered at regional high schools (BOCES, Board of Cooperative Ed Services) which some kids have used successfully.  Also in NY there are a lot of community colleges that offer trade school types of programs.  The tuition is affordable for most, there are many opportunities to get assistance, and there is talk of making it free.  I would start there if the goal is to create a workforce capable of handling blue collar jobs.  

[Westside]

Just now, Gray Beard said:

High schools have dropped most technical or vocational programs. In NY, there are technical courses offered at regional high schools (BOCES, Board of Cooperative Ed Services) which some kids have used successfully.  Also in NY there are a lot of community colleges that offer trade school types of programs.  The tuition is affordable for most, there are many opportunities to get assistance, and there is talk of making it free.  I would start there if the goal is to create a workforce capable of handling blue collar jobs.  

I agree 100%

We have to make younger generations our top priority. I'm so tired of hearing kids getting caught up in gangs and drugs because they don't see any other way out. No more kids dieing in the streets. 

 

[LeviF]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 the people they beat off? ?

 

 

Are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

 

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Seriously, I'm not clear how to interpret this.  You'd rather not discuss the "Fixing the System" topic and this is one of those drive-by's where someone comes into a thread just to say "this is a stupid thread that doesn't interest me"?  You'd rather be beat with a nightstick than read the proposals Reed put up? 

 

I'd say "your kink is OK" but at this point, I think people are not going to settle down until some kind of change occurs, and I think change is more likely to be productive when we hear from all viewpoints of people who actually know something - police AND people in the communities

 

"Abolish police" is not "fixing the system."  "Abolish police" turns America into a series of checkpoints, like any place in Africa with natural resources that developing nations are interested in (South Africans and the French will be able to make big money consulting on this).  And we all know how well that's going.  "Abolish police" = rise in private security for the wealthy, cost shifted to the evaporating middle class (whose security will be eroded quicker than their wealth), and gang rule of the urban poor.  And people who say "abolish police" will accept nothing less than exactly that, making it impossible to discuss things with them.  Functionally these people are anarcho-capitalists, whether they realize that or not, so any crying about "corporations" is laughably disingenuous.  Considering all that, yeah I'll take the beating instead of "green zone" America.

 

If someone regularly uses terms like "institutional-" or "systemic racism" and believes law enforcement constitutes an omnipotent bloc distinct from other public institutions, they don't live in the real world.  Which means I'm never going to end up in the same neighborhood, idea-wise, as them.

 

Is policing in America currently the best it could be?  Not if you ask me.  Shoutbox denizens can testify to what ideal policing consists of, philosophically, in my mind.  But someone who wants to throw out the baby instead of the bathwater has no interest in discussing real solutions.  

[Gray Beard]

9 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

 

 

"Abolish police" is not "fixing the system."  "Abolish police" turns America into a series of checkpoints, like any place in Africa with natural resources that developing nations are interested in (South Africans and the French will be able to make big money consulting on this).  And we all know how well that's going.  "Abolish police" = rise in private security for the wealthy, cost shifted to the evaporating middle class (whose security will be eroded quicker than their wealth), and gang rule of the urban poor.  And people who say "abolish police" will accept nothing less than exactly that, making it impossible to discuss things with them.  Functionally these people are anarcho-capitalists, whether they realize that or not, so any crying about "corporations" is laughably disingenuous.  Considering all that, yeah I'll take the beating instead of "green zone" America.

 

If someone regularly uses terms like "institutional-" or "systemic racism" and believes law enforcement constitutes an omnipotent bloc distinct from other public institutions, they don't live in the real world.  Which means I'm never going to end up in the same neighborhood, idea-wise, as them.

 

Is policing in America currently the best it could be?  Not if you ask me.  Shoutbox denizens can testify to what ideal policing consists of, philosophically, in my mind.  But someone who wants to throw out the baby instead of the bathwater has no interest in discussing real solutions.  

 

The progressives, or left wingers are shooting themselves in the foot with these “abolish” slogans.  Abolish ICE, Abolish Police, Abolish Gun Laws, etc. just turn off most people.  I know it’s more impactful to say Abolish rather than Tweak, but it is just dumb.

[Seasons1992]

Beats.............get police back into neighborhoods ON FOOT, and interact with people and businesses. 

[KD in CA]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

One of the most destructive things overall has been allowing businesses to avoid offering healthcare or benefits to workers who aren't full-time.

 

Go further.  Why is healthcare the responsibility of employers?  I have literally picked health plans for the employees at my companies several times.  I'm an accountant by trade.  How does that make sense?   People should purchase health insurance individually with appropriate government oversight to prevent cherry picking.   Gov't plans can pick up the slack for those who fall between the cracks (which they already do in huge numbers for the unemployed, non-FTEs, etc).   Putting further burden on private employers is a band-aid, not a cure.

 

Also, police unions are a popular target these days and rightly so.  Again, go further.  Why do we have public unions at all?  Their main purpose is to perpetuate the cycle of corrupt money flowing between entrenched government officials and giant organizations that put their own needs far ahead of the public.  I bring this up because, as noted above, the core issue here is deeper than just race, it's about poverty.  If you really want to reduce poverty, you must teach people how to overcome it.  Our education system doesn't make any attempt to do that.   If it did, financial literacy would be taught in every grade from Kindergarten through Senior year.  But no one wants that because an intelligent populous threatens entrenched powers.  So what will we do for poor people out of all this?  Probably give them a bigger child tax credit, which will lift no one out of poverty.  Another band-aid instead of a cure.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I know, just raggin' ya. 

 

Hopefully most can understand that if there are 6x as many white people as black people in this country (~250M and ~44M) that means 1 in 5 blacks lives in poverty, and 1 in every 17 whites lives in poverty.

hence my, “I understand the percentages” comment.
 

white is about 9%, black 20%, Latino 18% Asian about 10% In the link I attached if I recall. 
 

With the biggest risk for poverty 24% is single parent, female head of household and poverty’s. 

but yet it is disproportionate.
 

I wish I could conclude myself if systemic racial inequity is a root cause or is it a symptom...  

 

At some point I’d want to dive into the Jewish case and compare history and trends. They were targets of a less protracted racial injustice, but similar concept of enslavement with mass killing as well but did lose at least a generation of potential wealth and prejudice certainly remained for some time after the war, assuming systemic racism as well. 
 

I’m curios particularly in Germany how they fared over the past two or three generations, and if similar themes are found, or Lessons on how things were made better. 

[Just Joshin']

2 hours ago, westside2 said:

We need to bring back blue collar work. Add more trade schools and make it easier to join them. 

Stop sending people to prison over petty crimes, like weed. I believe in rent control, make it affordable for a family to have a good, clean safe place to raise their kids. 

The actual consequence of rent control are negative.  Two things occur:

1.  The landlord stops improving the existing spaces because their revenue is called while expenses increase (taxes, other services).  The units degrade and become less desirable.

2.  New construction will stop.  The cost to build and maintain will be in excess of the return.

 

The solution is actually the opposite.

1.  Reduce taxes.  These costs either get passed along to the renters.

2.  Reduce the paperwork and regulations.  The cost to build in very much in excess of the physical cost.  It adds time and money which increase the cost which increases the rent.

3.  Increase the places where new construction can occur.  Zoning limits and NIMBY activists keep new construction down.

 

In short, reduce the costs and barriers to new construction.  This will increase the supply and reduce total costs which reduce rents.

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Are we not doing "phrasing" anymore?

 

 

"Abolish police" is not "fixing the system."  "Abolish police" turns America into a series of checkpoints, like any place in Africa with natural resources that developing nations are interested in (South Africans and the French will be able to make big money consulting on this).  And we all know how well that's going.  "Abolish police" = rise in private security for the wealthy, cost shifted to the evaporating middle class (whose security will be eroded quicker than their wealth), and gang rule of the urban poor.  And people who say "abolish police" will accept nothing less than exactly that, making it impossible to discuss things with them.  Functionally these people are anarcho-capitalists, whether they realize that or not, so any crying about "corporations" is laughably disingenuous.  Considering all that, yeah I'll take the beating instead of "green zone" America.

 

If someone regularly uses terms like "institutional-" or "systemic racism" and believes law enforcement constitutes an omnipotent bloc distinct from other public institutions, they don't live in the real world.  Which means I'm never going to end up in the same neighborhood, idea-wise, as them.

 

Is policing in America currently the best it could be?  Not if you ask me.  Shoutbox denizens can testify to what ideal policing consists of, philosophically, in my mind.  But someone who wants to throw out the baby instead of the bathwater has no interest in discussing real solutions.  

defund ≠ abolish

[Niagara Bill]

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm pulling out this little point.  I don't think law enforcement can stop the drug problem.  I think the only way to reduce the drug problem is to reduce demand.  To do that, focus on treatment and opportunity.

I agree with you but I said police need to stop the problem but I also said it was a societal issue causing  untold problems. Treatment is an issue but the growing numbers is like the covid19, we must stop the growth as well have treatment. 13 year old making money selling dope...ouch...how to stop,  I have no idea...but it must.  I have been taught this, society has taught me.It is one of the big roots of racism and stereotyping.  

In the parking lot in Paris Tenn. sits a Prius, Camry, Honda Accord, Ford Escape, and 2010 Ford pickup. Walk into the bar and a guy with t-shirt, dusty ball cap, jeans, and a long neck Bud is leaning against the bar,.

Stereotypically which vehicle is his. 

I don t want to be prejudice but I have been taught..TV, music, movies, etc.

 

The good guy wears a white cowboy hat, 

 

[LeviF]

41 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

defund ≠ abolish

 

Can you please inform me where in the OP the word "defund" appears?

Edited June 8, 2020 by LeviF91
nicer

[Warcodered]

12 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Sorry, I'm an illiterate pig, can you please inform me where in the OP the word "defund" appears?

Defund is the term I've seen thrown around more commonly but I guess you're right the op and the the article he referenced did use the term abolish.

 

I don't really get why as it doesn't eliminate the police, restructure/reorganize would of made more sense to me but I guess they went with abolish to emphasize the significance of changes it represented. But the green part of the chart is what they meant and it isn't the total elimination of the police like you seem to think.

On 6/6/2020 at 12:27 AM, Reed83HOF said:

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Warcodered

[LeviF]

11 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Defund is the term I've seen thrown around more commonly but I guess you're right the op and the the article he referenced did use the term abolish.

 

I don't really get why as it doesn't eliminate the police, restructure/reorganize would of made more sense to me but I guess they went with abolish to emphasize the significance of changes it represented. But the green part of the chart is what they meant and it isn't the total elimination of the police like you seem to think.

 

 

Then why does their website call them "abolitionist steps?"

 

I'll give you a hint: the green part of the chart isn't an endgame.

 

In any case, all these represent steps towards anarcho-tyranny.  Police abolition at any level means that violent crime will not be patrolled for or acted against while armed state agents will harass business owners who commit whatever the crime du jour is: violation of mask edicts, refusal to bake a cake, etc.

Edited June 8, 2020 by LeviF91