Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) These topics are creeping up in many threads and a lot of different viewpoints are out there on this. There are a lot of knowledgeable posters on this board and I think we can have some good discussion on the issues affecting our black brothers and sisters (as well as others) in this country. There will be a lot of discussion points throughout the year(s) to come that will affect the sports world as well. I am hope we can have a civil thread where we can learn, challenge each other and express the viewpoints associated with some hot button topics that are all intertwined - it isn't just a stop killing black people issue: For some reason, this entire situation has affected me and I have been trying to listen and learn as much as I can, never really expected to ever become this guy, but anyways here goes... Systemic Racism Before you can even touch the policing issue, this entire wheel and system needs to be broken: The redlines, the lack of loans, lack of education, the turning to hustling to make ends meet, turning to drugs to drown the pain of being kept down by the machine and the damage to your psyche of self worth as a person solely because the color of your skin put you in a system that was designed to do just this. Fine you want equal rights, you can have it, but we will Fugg you a different way. You have to have a real discussion as to what do you do with the generations of black people who are stuck cycling around or or stuck in specific areas of the cycle. How do you lift them out? The term everyone hates, reparations, does to a degree change this - injecting money to stabalize 13% of the US population which should to a degree end some of the illegal hustling that occurs in those communities. You have to understand that the hustling is a result of low wages, which comes from a worse education experience, not everyone is able to pull themselves out. This somehow has to be addressed. How do you assist the person who has become addicted to drugs due to the depression they encounter in life for not being able to provide for their family, those who did not have a fair chance in America, who didn't receive a good education, who grew up in a broken home from parents who were incarcerated for hustling etc. This is not easy by any means to help shore up such a weak part in society. How do you help the psyche of everyone, who has to plan every interaction every day and every minute of their lives? You can't address the policing issue without creating a new foundation. The Criminal Justice System On the policing side of things there are basically 2 options: 1.) reform 2.) abolition Reform works good when you have a functioning system that is just and ours isn't. Our system functions exactly as it was designed. To encourage some discussion and to be provocative, my view tends more toward abolition. Here is a great website that discusses these 2 topics:http://criticalresistance.org/abolish-policing/ Edited June 6, 2020 by Reed83HOF 3 1
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Posted June 6, 2020 But there is more to than just the simple policing aspect of it. There are police unions (who were formed with good intent), but like everything can become corrupted over time. If you have a force that has enough "bad apples" they will chose a "bad apple leader". You have DAs who won't bring charges, the coroners (Minny ruled G. Floyd was natural causes), mayors and governors are scared to act against the police industry because of the veiled threat of have a great community of crime without us. You have non violent offenders who have been incarcerated due to the system racism above, how do you handle rehabilitating the people who are serving 10 years for dealing weed? How has prison changed them? Can they become functioning citizens again? How do you handle all of the mental issues that will have to be overcome to build trust and establish new patterns of behavior? It's all of this and it isn't a simple quick fix... and finally The Corportations Industries and people profit off of all of this. There are lobbyists, private companies, publicly traded companies and employees who feed their families off of it, so dismantling this to ensure truly colorblind and just system, will affect this group as well. Here is a graphic I found: This is not something that will get addressed over night and it will be very painful and tedious... 1 1
Warcodered Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 Moving from a punitive prison system to a more reformative one could also do wonders. 1
Reed83HOF Posted June 6, 2020 Author Posted June 6, 2020 13 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Moving from a punitive prison system to a more reformative one could also do wonders. so how do you go about it and what kind of reform are you thinking of? If you take funds from let's say police and reallocate it over here, how do you deal with the system upfront that is "creating the criminals" in the first place? What do you do with the ones who are too far gone?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 I'll put it out there: while I'm horrified by the death of George Floyd and David McAtee and Breonna Taylor and I'm sure there are many more of which I'm not aware, I also see the police as a necessary stabilizing force in most communities. So unless I just don't understand what it means, I'm not "down there" with "defund the police" campaigns. If it means scrap the current police force, what fills that function? Mothers being shaken down by their druggie sons for their social security $$ need someone to call. Ditto stores and banks being robbed. The police do a lot of good, too. Police forces did arise for good reason. In 2016, in the wake of protests, several activists including Stanford grad and activist Samuel Sinyangwe came up with a plan called "Campaign Zero" (for zero unnecessary deaths). I admire Sinyangwe because he tries to collect data, determine what seems to have an effect, and what doesn't, and be data driven. Here's their original plan. The website has details on each of the 10 points. (It should be noted this is from August 2016 and the "President's Task Force" refers to Obama) https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions#solutionsoverview I don't know how professional police feel about these things; perhaps some of our officers or former officers such as @Bangarang @LeviF91 and @BillfromNYC would be generous enough to spend some time reading and tell us how they think (I will step on anyone who goes after you just for offering your perspective. I have big feet.) From the little I know I think police are generally not fond of "broken windows policing" eg arrest or issue citations for minor crimes such as loud music, jaywalking, sagging, driving with a tail light out, and would generally prefer to cultivate non-adversarial relations with the community, not pursue "for profit policing" (the two being often related) or have ticket quotas and the like. I'm not sure what the police-side viewpoint is on body cams and demilitarization. I think "community oversight", "community representation", and "independently investigate and prosecute" lead to police concerns about having civilians second-guess a very dangerous job and the split-second judgements and decisions it demands of them. I think feelings about union contracts are more mixed than one might think - I have been told of cases where the union has forced re-instatement of cops that fellow officers don't have much use for as officers and really don't want to work with. On the other hand the protections union contracts with cities afford are welcome and valued wrt protection from reprisals by police chiefs and protection from politically motivated actions. Anyway, a different substrate from that which @Reed83HOF put up. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 Twitter thread from Sinyangwe explaining the research behind their current initiative #8cantwait He and his campaignzero collaborators are being criticized by people pushing de-funding of the police as "wanting to improve policing's war on us" His point is he wants to find immediate, actionable changes that have data to support a positive effect He is also a pragmatist and I think, realizes that things like #defundpolice may not have enough support to achieve at this time (certainly not without a better explanation to the general public just what does that mean and just what would be the impact) Here is the threadreader version https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1269298269055856641.html
LeviF Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 Tbh I’d rather just be beaten with a nightstick once in a while if it’s all the same 1
Niagara Bill Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 I do not have the opinion that this should be anti police. Frankly it may mean a refocus. 1. Police need to be close to the community. All citizens need not fear the police. I am not smart enough to know how, but I do know the criminal element will replace the police if they do not fix the relationships. Example, the mafia developed in Sicily because the government was so untrustworthy the mafia created a protection and aid for those in need. Today the drug gangs are doing similar activities but with more intimidation. There was a time when cops did not carry guns...now today that is impossible but weapons create opportunities for violence, but cops should be problem solvers first, not force first, not tickets and not arrests first... 2. Law enforcement must stop the drug problem. Now I know it is not just the police, but society has a huge unspoken plague that is a root evil creating conflict and stereo types. The underprivileged see that business as a way out of their situation when racism is holding them down. This circumstance now creates systemic stereotypes...it has got to be fixed. 3. Education...good education, equal education, more education, a reason for education, new methods of education, with opportunity not handouts. 4. Mandatory anti racism training for every employed person...there is a difference between overt racism and systemic...People must understand it. I have been involved in helping develop and implement this type of initiative and helps people see how they contribute to the ongoing systemic problems. People do not need to be chastised, just educated. 200 years of racism is not my fault, the future is our responsibility. 5.There is nothing wrong with a global anti racism symbol, and kneeling seems to be catching on..why not. 6. Any public employee who demonstrates racism....termination, period. Without a doubt I am part of the historic problem, I am listening and trying. This list likely shows my built in prejudices, sorry for that, sincerely! And many more initiatives...
Gray Beard Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 30 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said: I do not have the opinion that this should be anti police. Frankly it may mean a refocus. 3. Education...good education, equal education, more education, a reason for education, new methods of education, with opportunity not handouts. And many more initiatives... I think education is key... If you got to school If you try hard If you are smart enough If you get good grades If you can somehow go to college If you can find a job in your field If you can avoid layoffs ... you can get a mortgage! ... or you can hangout with your buddies, have fun right now, and not plan or worry about the future 3
Niagara Bill Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 19 minutes ago, Gray Beard said: I think education is key... If you got to school If you try hard If you are smart enough If you get good grades If you can somehow go to college If you can find a job in your field If you can avoid layoffs ... you can get a mortgage! ... or you can hangout with your buddies, have fun right now, and not plan or worry about the future Education need not be a PHD. Smart is not the question, smart in what area is the key, engineer, plumber, Store mgr. Trucker, teacher, printer, programmer, farmer, Drugs and gangs are easy money and recognition for all youth. 1
JohnC Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 A positive story of a good young man having his good deeds acknowledged in the midst of an environment of conflict. This link was taken from cnn.com. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/teen-cleans-buffalo-protest-rewarded-with-car-scholarship-trnd/index.html 1
Niagara Bill Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 18 minutes ago, JohnC said: A positive story of a good young man having his good deeds acknowledged in the midst of an environment of conflict. This link was taken from cnn.com. https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/teen-cleans-buffalo-protest-rewarded-with-car-scholarship-trnd/index.html Feel compelled say that his love and respect is incredible. For those who returned it, superb. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 11 hours ago, Niagara Bill said: 2. Law enforcement must stop the drug problem. Now I know it is not just the police, but society has a huge unspoken plague that is a root evil creating conflict and stereo types. The underprivileged see that business as a way out of their situation when racism is holding them down. This circumstance now creates systemic stereotypes...it has got to be fixed. I'm pulling out this little point. I don't think law enforcement can stop the drug problem. I think the only way to reduce the drug problem is to reduce demand. To do that, focus on treatment and opportunity.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 Regarding systemic racism and a concept of reparations. I was shocked to know these numbers: Count of Americans below poverty line by demographics: - Asian 2 million - black 9 million - Hispanic 10 million - white 16 million I understand percentages, etc. but still, these groups are all filled with hopeless vicious cycles that are almost inescapable irrespective of What you look like. On the rates two most eye popping: -poverty rate for people who work full time year round is 2% - poverty rate for family with one parent head of house, female is 24% https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/40546247
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 46 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Regarding systemic racism and a concept of reparations. I was shocked to know these numbers: Count of Americans below poverty line by demographics: - Asian 2 million - black 9 million - Hispanic 10 million - white 16 million I understand percentages, etc. but still, these groups are all filled with hopeless vicious cycles that are almost inescapable irrespective of What you look like. On the rates two most eye popping: -poverty rate for people who work full time year round is 2% - poverty rate for family with one parent head of house, female is 24% https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/40546247 Oh shoot now you've done it. We're gonna have folks in here saying there's almost 2x as many whites below the poverty line than blacks so clearly this whole racism thing is Fake. One of the most destructive things overall has been allowing businesses to avoid offering healthcare or benefits to workers who aren't full-time. So now many of them have employee hours management programs that carefully ensure that employees stay below the threshold for being considered full time and receiving benefits, and many people work 2-3 jobs to put together enough hours. They have more complicated scheduling, more travel time and expense, expanded overall time spent on the job, and less total compensation. Plus their jobs are less secure. 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Oh shoot now you've done it. We're gonna have folks in here saying there's almost 2x as many whites below the poverty line than blacks so clearly this whole racism thing is Fake. I wasn’t trying to go there, just that the numbers are shocking and hopelessness is pervasive.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: I wasn’t trying to go there, just that the numbers are shocking and hopelessness is pervasive. I know, just raggin' ya. Hopefully most can understand that if there are 6x as many white people as black people in this country (~250M and ~44M) that means 1 in 5 blacks lives in poverty, and 1 in every 17 whites lives in poverty. 1
Gray Beard Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Oh shoot now you've done it. We're gonna have folks in here saying there's almost 2x as many whites below the poverty line than blacks so clearly this whole racism thing is Fake. One of the most destructive things overall has been allowing businesses to avoid offering healthcare or benefits to workers who aren't full-time. So now many of them have employee hours management programs that carefully ensure that employees stay below the threshold for being considered full time and receiving benefits, and many people work 2-3 jobs to put together enough hours. They have more complicated scheduling, more travel time and expense, expanded overall time spent on the job, and less total compensation. Plus their jobs are less secure. I feel that taking the healthcare responsibility away from business is a good idea. ObamaCare for everybody with a lot of subsidies would be my choice. Initially healthcare was offered as a perk, then it became standard procedure, then it became mandated. Rather than having the government spend a trillion dollars in tax cuts for the rich with some phony trickle down explanation, spend that money subsidizing healthcare. What many people don’t factor into the equation is that employees and employers are paying that trillion dollars now anyway, it’s just not as obvious since it’s split up over so many people and so many pay periods. It would be a huge benefit to smaller businesses if the burden of healthcare is removed, and it would allow for more jobs to be available; for example, rather than 60 hours/week from one employee, you could split that time among two employees. I apologize if I’ve strayed too far from the intention of this thread.
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