Goodell Admits NFL Was Wrong Not to Listen

[Gineric]

32 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I’m sure that the intent is good here; the issue I have with your post is that the two facts presented are simply incorrect.

 

It isn’t mainly African Americans killed by police (though on a per-million-people basis AAs make up a disproportionately high percentage of victims), and a very quick google search shows multiple 10+ year sentences for white officers convicted of murdering unarmed black people within the last calendar year.

 

None of that is to say that police violence or racial inequities aren’t an issue that deserves attention, but rather to say that the argument has more staying power when the facts presented are accurate.

I’m not excusing the assault, but standard protocol is apparently to secure the area and not touch the victim until the med team arrives (have to find the source of that but I read it yesterday)

 

I don't need stats, especially those same stats that are documented and can be skewed to fit whatever or whoever's narrative.  I've lived police abuse and know MANY, many people who have lived it.  I have been racially profiled and pulled over many times because of the pricey vehicles I own.  During those stops, I was told I was pulled over because my tail light was out or my license plate light was too dim....   I knew these were lies because both of my vehicles at that time were brand new.  At those times weapons were placed at my back, I was handcuff ("for their safety and mine") and my vehicle was searched with a dog...  all this because of a supposed tail light that miraculously was working fine when they brought me to the back of my car????  Yeah ok, stats....

 

When I first purchased my new home in Falls Church, VA....  I got pulled over 3 times within the first month, in my neighborhood for the "dim license plate light", supposedly not coming to a complete stop at a Stop sign and a "a vehicle like this was described in an previous altercation"....   they asked who's vehicle I was driving, what was I doing in that neighborhood that time of night (around 8pm which isn't late at all) and what is it exactly I do for a living....   now out of all those times pulled over in my neighborhood, my vehicle was searched, I was placed in cuffs but wasn't arrested, and never ticketed for these made up infractions....   so I don't really give a damn about these stats that you speak of because situations like this is EXACTLY why people get shot for no reason.  I, like many others should have never been pulled over based on the worth of the vehicle I OWN or the neighborhood in which I OWN a home.  This is America....  supposedly the home of the free.  Anybody can create stats to support THEIR argument.  But I lived and live it.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Gineric

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

you really don't understand the issue with the old man Martin Gugino

 

They are cops. Why didn't they just arrest this dangerous and infamous agitator on the spot?   

 

That's what the prosecutor is going to ask them on the witness stand.

 

Why make this man an "antifa" martyr?  Wouldn't capturing this scourge be a huge prize for law and order?

 

 

 

 

[thebandit27]

Just now, Gineric said:

 

I don't need stats, especially those same stats that are documented and can be skewed to fit whatever or whoever's narrative.  I've lived police abuse and know MANY, many people who have lived it.  I have been racially profiled and pulled over many times because of the pricey vehicles I own.  During those stops, I was told I was pulled over because my tail light was out or my license plate light was too dim....   I knew these were lies because both of my vehicles at that time were brand new.  At those times weapons were placed at my back, I was handcuff ("for their safety and mine") and my vehicle was searched with a dog...  all this because of a supposed tail light that miraculously was working fine when they brought me to the back of my car????  Yeah ok, stats....

 

When I first purchased my new home in Falls Church, VA....  I got pulled over 3 times within the first month, in my neighborhood for the "dim license plate light", supposedly not coming to a complete stop at a Stop sign and a "a vehicle like this was described in an previous altercation"....   they asked who's vehicle I was driving, what was I doing in that neighborhood that time of night (around 8pm which isn't late at all) and what is it exactly I do for a living....   now out of all those times pulled over in my neighborhood, my vehicle was searched, I was placed in cuffs but wasn't arrested, and never ticket for these made up infractions....   so I don't really give a damn about these stats that you speak of because situations like this is EXACTLY who people get shot for no reason.  I, like many others should have never been pulled over based on the worth of the vehicle I OWN or the neighborhood in which I OWN a home.  This is America....  supposedly the home of the free.

I don’t doubt any of that and like I said: I believe that the sentiment you’re expressing is valid and appropriate. It’s beneficial for people to hear your testimony about your experience.

 

I simply figured that I’d point out that including statements that don’t appear to be factually accurate leaves room for people to pick nits, but that’s up to you to decide how to convey your message.

[Sig1Hunter]

2 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

Appreciate your point of view.  To save me the need to look through 20+ pages, you do admit that there is a problem with how black Americans and other people of color are treated?  (by individuals and institutions across our country)

Yes. I just don’t believe that law enforcement is the root of it, and I don’t believe the evidence supports systemic racism in law enforcement. I believe to the contrary that things are the best they have ever been, in that regard, and we are continuing to get better. And I’m concerned that all of this mess is just going to set everything back. Two steps forward, five steps back so to speak. I believe that the mechanisms in place to perpetuate injustice and unfairness reside at much higher levels, and that is what we should be protesting against.  Who stands to gain from minority communities remaining crime infested and in poverty?  The cops? Every cop I know would love it if those communities prospered and crime became non existent. A safer community means more cops going home safely. And no cop is gonna turn that down as the end goal of their shift. 

 

[Happy]

47 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

They are cops. Why didn't they just arrest this dangerous and infamous agitator on the spot?   

 

That's what the prosecutor is going to ask them on the witness stand.

 

Are you a law man?  I would bet that if the cops could have arrested him, they would have.  How would you know what the prosecutor will ask them?

 

47 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why make this man an "antifa" martyr?  Wouldn't capturing this scourge be a huge prize for law and order?

 

He's not a martyr...he didn't die.  His intent was to 'skim' the cops radio communication signal as well as set the cops up to give an appearance of brutality.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Happy said:

 

Are you a law man?  I would bet that if the cops could have arrested him, they would have.  How would you know what the prosecutor will ask them?

 

 

He's not a martyr...he didn't die.  His intent was to 'skim' the cops radio communication signal as well as set the cops up to give an appearance of brutality.

 

"Could have"? Why couldn't they?

 

The prosecutor will ask them because that's the most obvious question.  A jury would want to know that.

 

"Appearance of brutality"?  Well then this guy is totally METHOD.....even producing blood from his ear on cue!  Man---you sure have him "dead to rights"!

[stuvian]

Kaepernick's coming back. Nothing else will suffice. These protests will spill over into the season. A sea change is at hand. Business as usual won't cut it.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, stuvian said:

Kaepernick's coming back. Nothing else will suffice. These protests will spill over into the season. A sea change is at hand. Business as usual won't cut it.

Political movements aside, Kaep coming back to play may not be in the cards given the time he’s been out and his age. It would be nice if he got a legitimate tryout, though. But the fact Goodell didn’t even mention his name in his announcement on Friday is very telling. 

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Happy said:

He was inciting the crowd all day long, was provoking the cops, then attempted to skim their police radio signals with an app on his cell phone (when approached by police) while his antifa buddy filmed the entire incident.

 

You should source this information but that would still be beside the point. It is not illegal to gather with a crowd, film police officers, or use an app to listen to a police scanner. None of that excuses the police officer that pushed the unarmed elderly man as hard as he could. We can both agree that if the cop had pulled out his gun and shot the man in the head that would have been undue force. Which means we can both agree there is some level of undue force to use in that situation. What makes you think shoving the elderly man backwards on the pavement is legitimate force to use in that situation?

[Happy]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Which means we can both agree there is some level of undue force to use in that situation. What makes you think shoving the elderly man backwards on the pavement is legitimate force to use in that situation?

 

Because he didn't listen to the initial order to back away and held his ground.  The mayor justified the police response.

 

Here is a source of reference:  https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/06/buffalo-mayor-knocked-down-elderly-man-agitator-martin-gugino-cops/

[Rocky Landing]

13 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

Because he didn't listen to the initial order to back away and held his ground.  The mayor justified the police response.

 

Here is a source of reference:  https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/06/buffalo-mayor-knocked-down-elderly-man-agitator-martin-gugino-cops/

And did you not listen to the press conference by Erie County District Attorney John Flynn on the top of the very page that you linked? I suggest you do.

 

At one point during the press conference, which is not included in your TMZ clip, Flynn states very directly that if the guy had broken the law, then you arrest him, and what you don't do is hold your baton out, and knock him to the ground. He considers this case against the cops quite obvious.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Rocky Landing

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, Happy said:

Because he didn't listen to the initial order to back away and held his ground.

 

Lol the frail 75 year old man "held his ground." Luckily the tough police officers were there to knock him on his ***. Sorry but that's not a justification. That's just a pathetic excuse.

 

Most people the police interact with are going to be committing some kind of crime, or at least accused of one. Even George Floyd was accused of using counterfeit money. But that doesn't mean the police can do whatever they want to those people. They still have to make sound judgments. Forcefully shoving an elderly nonviolent man is not a sound judgment. In this case it rises to the level of assault.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Lol the frail 75 year old man "held his ground." Luckily the tough police officers were there to knock him on his ***. Sorry but that's not a justification. That's just a pathetic excuse.

 

Most people the police interact with are going to be committing some kind of crime, or at least accused of one. Even George Floyd was accused of using counterfeit money. But that doesn't mean the police can do whatever they want to those people. They still have to make sound judgments. Forcefully shoving an elderly nonviolent man is not a sound judgment. In this case it rises to the level of assault.

We'll see if they are convicted, I guess.

 

Is every cop who shoves a protestor back on the street committing assault?  I mean, we've seen 100s of videos of a line of cops pushing back when protestors encroach, at the WH, at other police lines, etc. Are they all guilty of assault?

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[HappyDays]

15 minutes ago, Happy said:

The mayor justified the police response.

 

If you just take Byron Brown at his word you must find him extraordinarily truthful for a politician. I trust he has your vote at the next mayoral election? Do you typically agree with Byron Brown on other issues, or just this one in the face of no evidence? The only evidence we have is two videos that both show the same thing.

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Lol the frail 75 year old man "held his ground." Luckily the tough police officers were there to knock him on his ***. Sorry but that's not a justification. That's just a pathetic excuse.

 

Most people the police interact with are going to be committing some kind of crime, or at least accused of one. Even George Floyd was accused of using counterfeit money. But that doesn't mean the police can do whatever they want to those people. They still have to make sound judgments. Forcefully shoving an elderly nonviolent man is not a sound judgment. In this case it rises to the level of assault.

George Floyd was never given the chance to be accused of anything. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

16 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

Because he didn't listen to the initial order to back away and held his ground.  The mayor justified the police response.

 

Here is a source of reference:  https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/06/buffalo-mayor-knocked-down-elderly-man-agitator-martin-gugino-cops/

This isn't some neo-liberal vs. right-wing issue, this is basic humanity and common sense......you are way off kilter with this and other responses. I'm guessing you don't think you'd ever be in that position yourself but if you were you'd expect to be treated in a similar fashion as you espouse- by law enforcement. That was sarcasm. You should reevaluate and soon.

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Is every cop who shoves a protestor back on the street committing assault?  I mean, we've seen 100s of videos of a line of cops pushing back when protestors encroach, at the WH, at other police lines, etc. Are they all guilty of assault?

 

This is like asking "is every drunk driver committing vehicular manslaughter?" No, only the ones that happen to hit someone while they're driving. In this case it was a single elderly man who was not being even remotely violent. That is why these police officers in particular were charged with assault. Because anyone watching the video with unbiased eyes can see that they took it too far.

 

By the way I don't expect them to get convicted, it is notoriously difficult to get juries to convict police officers in these situations. But charging them was the right decision. Police officers have a very difficult job and they have to make split second decisions, I appreciate that more than you might think. But that doesn't excuse everything they do. There still has to be accountability somewhere.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is like asking "is every drunk driver committing vehicular manslaughter?" No, only the ones that happen to hit someone while they're driving. In this case it was a single elderly man who was not being even remotely violent. That is why these police officers in particular were charged with assault. Because anyone watching the video with unbiased eyes can see that they took it too far.

 

By the way I don't expect them to get convicted, it is notoriously difficult to get juries to convict police officers in these situations. But charging them was the right decision. Police officers have a very difficult job and they have to make split second decisions, I appreciate that more than you might think. But that doesn't excuse everything they do. There still has to be accountability somewhere.

Absolutely agree.

 

They shoved him back once, after he failed to obey orders. If the cops at the White House who formed a line blocking pushing protestors and one shoved back a young  protester who tripped and cracked his head open, is he committing assault? If he doesn't trip and crack his head, is it not assault?

 

The questions above are why they won't be convicted. Everyone sees the state of these protests, and no one is assuming a shove of a protestor who gets in a cops face is assault.  No one.

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Absolutely agree.

 

They shoved him back once, after he failed to obey orders. If the cops at the White House who formed a line blocking pushing protestors and one shoved back a young  protester who tripped and cracked his head open, is he committing assault? If he doesn't trip and crack his head, is it not assault?

 

The questions above are why they won't be convicted. Everyone sees the state of these protests, and no one is assuming a shove of a protestor who gets in a cops face is assault.  No one.

 

The big difference in this case, aside from the man's age, is that it's just one man. He's not at the front of a crowd of protestors. He's not pushing any cops. He slowly walked up to them. If you watch the video he's actually starting to back up as the police officers move towards him. While he's stepping backwards the two officers push him. You can't draw any comparisons to that. Take the case on its merits.

 

No one thinks a police officer in crowd control who pushes someone should be arrested. In the hypothetical you raise maybe the family of the victim would sue the city, but that's as far as it would possibly go.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The big difference in this case, aside from the man's age, is that it's just one man. He's not at the front of a crowd of protestors. He's not pushing any cops. He slowly walked up to them. If you watch the video he's actually starting to back up as the police officers move towards him. While he's stepping backwards the two officers push him. You can't draw any comparisons to that. Take the case on its merits.

 

No one thinks a police officer in crowd control who pushes someone should be arrested. In the hypothetical you raise maybe the family of the victim would sue the city, but that's as far as it would possibly go.

He started to step backwards BECAUSE 2 other cops are converging on him AFTER they told him to get back and he disobeyed, then they push him.

 

What happened to that guy is sad. But 99% of people get shoved back and then that's the end of the exchange. And no one would have considered anyone's actions assault.