FireChans Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: This will be my one, and only post to you. If you truly have no idea of what systemic racism means, or what the concepts of white privilege are, then I'm going to assume a certain amount of willful ignorance on your part. But, to answer your assertion of "no evidence of systemic racism," here are several links, which took me all of ten seconds to find: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-04/Numbers-behind-anger-U-S-racism-inequality-in-stats-R39PKBLwty/index.html https://inequality.org/facts/racial-inequality/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/ Honestly, considering the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to take a single one of these seriously. But, I didn't want your cherry-picked, context-lacking "evidence" to be anywhere near the last word, just for the sake of the otherwise rational discussion that has been occurring on this thread. This is an aside, but I gotta be honest. I REALLY REALLY hate the use of relative risk in all statistics. 3.7 times more likely can easily mean 1/100000 and 3.7/100000. Which is a disparity but doesn’t sound quite as stark as 3.7 x more likely. It’s the same kinda nonsense the drug companies push on drugs that are really only mildly more effective. 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: Isn't it hard to argue that it's just 'a few bad cops' ruining the rest's reputation when 57 of them from one unit resign in solidarity with the two who shoved the guy to the ground? What % of cops do you believe are bad?
GoBills808 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, FireChans said: What % of cops do you believe are bad? 117%
Sig1Hunter Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: This will be my one, and only post to you. If you truly have no idea of what systemic racism means, or what the concepts of white privilege are, then I'm going to assume a certain amount of willful ignorance on your part. But, to answer your assertion of "no evidence of systemic racism," here are several links, which took me all of ten seconds to find: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-04/Numbers-behind-anger-U-S-racism-inequality-in-stats-R39PKBLwty/index.html https://inequality.org/facts/racial-inequality/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/18/theres-overwhelming-evidence-that-the-criminal-justice-system-is-racist-heres-the-proof/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/ Honestly, considering the tone of your posts, I don't expect you to take a single one of these seriously. But, I didn't want your cherry-picked, context-lacking "evidence" to be anywhere near the last word, just for the sake of the otherwise rational discussion that has been occurring on this thread. My tone? Seriously? I’m sorry I hurt your feelings too I guess. However, I appreciate the rest of your post. Interesting that you aren’t willing to further discuss the evidence you provided, but That’s the country we live in. I’m not trolling. I’m open to discussion / debate. I haven’t called anyone names. I’ve been respectful ( as far as I can tell). My only crime has been going against the flow of the majority in this thread. I haven’t read through all of your links yet, but I will agree that there are portions of the larger CJ system that disproportionately effects minorities. I’ve seen with my own two eyes how poor suspects convicted of crimes tend to get much harsher penalties than do suspects with more money. Poor suspects are often stuck with an over loaded public defender bent on clearing his docket, while more well to do suspects can afford a private attorney that is willing to devote time to actually defend them. Those private attorneys also have personal relationships with judges (most of whom were also private attorneys before being judges) and those relationships can lead to lighter sentences, it seems to me. We all know that minorities tend to have a lower overall income than whites. This is where I think the conversation needs to start. Why is this? In my view, lower income tends towards a higher probability of criminal behavior. A higher probability of criminal behavior would seem to mean a higher probability of search and arrest. 1
FireChans Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: 117% I liked you better when you were from Dallas.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 3 hours ago, HamSandwhich said: Shouldn’t be here I guess whatever floats your boat, but to me it's a bit much to tell the guy who supports and runs the board what should or shouldn't be here. Scott's house, Scott's rules.
Happy Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 27 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Isn't it hard to argue that it's just 'a few bad cops' ruining the rest's reputation when 57 of them from one unit resign in solidarity with the two who shoved the guy to the ground? You know the guy the Buffalo cops shoved to the ground was an Antifa member and professional agitator...right? Details are often left out of agendas. 1
K-9 Posted June 7, 2020 Author Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sig1Hunter said: Ok. So no evidence of systemic racism. I gave you evidence that directly refutes the idea that blacks are even contacted more by law enforcement. I gave you direct evidence that blacks commit more violent crime than other races. I gave you direct evidence that this boogeyman that you keep referencing of unarmed black men getting gunned down on the street does not actually exist. And, you have nothing. Got it. Keep marching! Night night! You seem to enjoy pissing contests more than anything else as your refusal to address my other points suggests. Like the historical context I mentioned for instance. Have unarmed black men been gunned down or not? Was excessive force used against black men or not? Recently? Ever? Do people have a legit reason to be suspicious because of our history or not? Spouting numbers as a defense against those abuses does little to bolster your case. Seems more like a deflection in an attempt to avoid the subject. You can spout all the statistics you want, but the stink of systemic oppression of black people is still in the air. No direct evidence to be sure, but the circumstantial evidence overwhelms. The stench is inescapable. Your posts suggest these protesters have no legitimate reason to complain. Why? I suspect it’s personal with you given your previous post referencing black people having their feelings hurt when being pulled over only because they’re black. Has a black person actually said that to you when you pulled them over? Have they said worse things? Did they provoke an outrage in you that you had to choke down? 38 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said: So cops during your grandfathers and uncles time are now the model? Those were the racist cops from the Jim Crow era that you referenced earlier in your argument that centered around the belief that “cops were racist 60 years ago, so they have to be racist now”. Which is it? Or is everything just subjective belief? These are just rhetorical questions for you to ponder. The model my grandfather and uncles represented is still the model to strive for today. They were as far from Jim Crow cops as can be. Serving in Buffalo, they weren’t subject to Jim Crow era laws, anyway. They served and protected in the communities they lived in. Took pride in their jobs and enjoyed being positive role models in the community. Your bullcrap attempt at conflating their era to today is pitiful. Insult me all you want, but there was no need to insult them or their fine records as police officers. Edited June 7, 2020 by K-9
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Beast said: I don’t think it is some secret that Universities across this country are breeding grounds for tomorrow’s Liberals, so that examination shouldn’t be shocking to anyone. The interesting stat I take out of that is the more experiences one has in life the more likely they were to vote for Donald Trump. Just a little note that there will still be some guidelines and that general political discussion outside the context of the current protests, NFL reactions etc will be politely escorted to PPP 1 1
SDS Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 25 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said: My tone? Seriously? I’m sorry I hurt your feelings too I guess. However, I appreciate the rest of your post. Interesting that you aren’t willing to further discuss the evidence you provided, but That’s the country we live in. I’m not trolling. I’m open to discussion / debate. I haven’t called anyone names. I’ve been respectful ( as far as I can tell). My only crime has been going against the flow of the majority in this thread. I haven’t read through all of your links yet, but I will agree that there are portions of the larger CJ system that disproportionately effects minorities. I’ve seen with my own two eyes how poor suspects convicted of crimes tend to get much harsher penalties than do suspects with more money. Poor suspects are often stuck with an over loaded public defender bent on clearing his docket, while more well to do suspects can afford a private attorney that is willing to devote time to actually defend them. Those private attorneys also have personal relationships with judges (most of whom were also private attorneys before being judges) and those relationships can lead to lighter sentences, it seems to me. We all know that minorities tend to have a lower overall income than whites. This is where I think the conversation needs to start. Why is this? In my view, lower income tends towards a higher probability of criminal behavior. A higher probability of criminal behavior would seem to mean a higher probability of search and arrest. You didn’t vote the source of your numbers. It has been debunked. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/05/larry-elder/larry-elder-mislabels-statistics-fatal-shootings-p/ I can not find a source that makes any of the claims you made. It also doesn’t address all those interactions that do not include death. This stuff has been studied to the moon and back. They have tried to compare outcomes of similar crimes between whites and minorities. I have yet to see a serious study, that takes an honest look at the situation, that suggests what you claim.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 12 minutes ago, Happy said: You know the guy the Buffalo cops shoved to the ground was an Antifa member and professional agitator...right? Details are often left out of agendas. Actually I know of no evidence that Martin Gugino is an "Antifa member" (whatever does that mean anyway?) nor "professional agitator". He's retired (no surprise age 75) and self describes as a "peace activist". https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/05/martin-gugino-pushed-ground-buffalo-police-known-peaceful-man/3160820001/ https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/human-interest/2020/06/05/-more-than-an-injured-protester----martin-gugino--an-activist there's a TBN article but every time I try to get the link it asks me to log in again ?♂️ Anyway I find no evidence that he's an "antifa member", which seems to have become a convenient bucket to use to discredit anyone at a protest. I suppose you could call him a "professional agitator" but what makes a protestor, someone who is passionate about causes and likes to exercise his constitutionally guaranteed free speech rights, distinct from a "professional agitator" - professional usually means paid, what is the evidence of that.
Sig1Hunter Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 10 minutes ago, K-9 said: You seem to enjoy pissing contests more than anything else as your refusal to address my other points suggests. Like the historical context I mentioned for instance. Have unarmed black men been gunned down or not? Was excessive force used against black men or not? Recently? Ever? Do people have a legit reason to be suspicious because of our history or not? Spouting numbers as a defense against those abuses does little to bolster your case. Seems more like a deflection in an attempt to avoid the subject. You can spout all the statistics you want, but the stink of systemic oppression of black people is still in the air. No direct evidence to be sure, but the circumstantial evidence overwhelms. The stench is inescapable. Your posts suggest these protesters have no legitimate reason to complain. Why? I suspect it’s personal with you given your previous post referencing black people having their feelings hurt when being pulled over only because they’re black. Has a black person actually said that to you when you pulled them over? Have they said worse things? Did they provoke an outrage in you that you had to choke down? The model my grandfather and uncles represented is still the model to strive for today. They were as far from Jim Crow cops as can be. Serving in Buffalo, they weren’t subject to Jim Crow era laws, anyway. They served and protected in the communities they lived in. Took pride in their jobs and enjoyed being positive role models in the community. Your bullcrap attempt at conflating their era to today is pitiful. Insult me all you want, but there was no need to insult them or their fine records as police officers. Insulting them? I love them! I was just trying to get a grasp on the seemingly duplicitous nature of your post. And yes, of course I’ve been accused of being a racist cop...for the sole reason that I’m white and I’m a cop. The same way that you are doing directly and indirectly. I attempted to educate those people in the same way I am trying to educate you...by engaging in dialogue and showing them that I’m not racist, and neither are the overwhelming majority of my law enforcement brethren. It’s funny that almost every time I had similar discussions with minorities I’ve gotten much less vitriol than I have from you. I also got a much more well thought out response to why it is they they feel/felt the way to do/did. And, I’ve addressed every single one of your “points”. You just don’t like my responses, and keep replying with “but, they feel this way...” or some other such nonsense. As if feelings matter more than actual fact. As far as the protesters, protest. No issue. My issue lies with the mob mentality where dissenting voices are shouted down and people are expected to blindly follow the narratives spoonfed to them by their media and political overlords. That is why I initially responded to your post. Ive repeatedly acknowledged that unarmed black people have died at the hands of law enforcement officers. You keep saying that, and I keep acknowledging it. 1 is “too many” and things can certainly get better. My point is that there are so few of these incidents that it does not go anywhere near showing that there is systemic racism in law enforcement. Chauvin is not an example of cops - including your relatives, including me (despite your nasty - yet not unsurprising - attempt at intimating that I’m a racist) and including those cops that are getting bottles of urine, bleach, and burning fuel thrown on them or at them. PS if you believe that racist cops only existed in the south during the 60s, you need to go read a history book. 2
Sig1Hunter Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 14 minutes ago, SDS said: You didn’t vote the source of your numbers. It has been debunked. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jun/05/larry-elder/larry-elder-mislabels-statistics-fatal-shootings-p/ I can not find a source that makes any of the claims you made. It also doesn’t address all those interactions that do not include death. This stuff has been studied to the moon and back. They have tried to compare outcomes of similar crimes between whites and minorities. I have yet to see a serious study, that takes an honest look at the situation, that suggests what you claim. Debunked? Debunked because the WaPo only collects info on shooting? Interesting that the WaPo is now adjusting those numbers since the riots have begun to redefine what unarmed means. Media overlords indeed...I would be interested to see what “new facts emerged”. Did a gun the suspect was holding turn out to be fake? That’s considered “unarmed” by the WaPo. As far as where I’ve gathered my numbers here: https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/chi-fact-checker-police-killings-20150110-story.html https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said: Hell, I’ll take almost any evidence. Just so long as it isnt based solely on the color of ones skin. Do you have any evidence? You are making the claim that it exists. In 2015, there were 53,469,300 law enforcement - civilian contacts which is 21.1% of the total population. Whites were contacted 37,334,200 times, which is 22.7% of the white population. Blacks were contacted 6,146,600 times, which is 19.8% of the black population. So, white people are more likely to be contacted by police. I’ve already quoted the statistics for unarmed law enforcement deaths. Nine unarmed black people were killed last year. 7 were actually attacking the officer, grabbing for the officers gun, or trying to run the officer over with a vehicle. 2 officers were criminally charged. I'd appreciate the source on the 2015 "contacts" thing. Thanks. With regard to the statistics for "nine unarmed black people", I think you're not properly qualifying that number. Per WaPo, that is 9 unarmed black people who were shot by active-duty police officers. The "mapping police violence" project gives the number of unarmed blacks shot by police officers as 23. If we included the categories "allegedly armed" (not necessarily proven) or "unclear", the number jumps to 232 police shootings And here we are, protesting the death of a man because a police officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes. So if we included "beaten/restrained, taser, vehicle, and other" it rises to 259. Again all just last year. I'm afraid saying only nine unarmed black people were killed last year is true only if one places a large number of caveats: the person was proven to be unarmed, not "unclear" etc, the cause of death is limited only to shooting, officer on active duty (not simply acting in a LE capacity) Essentially, it's limiting the definition of what counts until there are very few cases, and then saying "look! very few cases", which is chill I guess if you're out to support a point, but not so much if you're trying to get an accurate picture of what's actually happening? Here's some more information on the sources of data "mapping police violence" uses. It does not include data from security guards or civilian militias
SDS Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'd appreciate the source on the 2015 "contacts" thing. Thanks. With regard to the statistics for "nine unarmed black people", I think you're not properly qualifying that number. Per WaPo, that is 9 unarmed black people who were shot by active-duty police officers. The "mapping police violence" project gives the number of unarmed blacks shot by police officers as 23. If we included the categories "allegedly armed" (not necessarily proven) or "unclear", the number jumps to 232 police shootings And here we are, protesting the death of a man because a police officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes. So if we included "beaten/restrained, taser, vehicle, and other" it rises to 259. Again all just last year. I'm afraid saying only nine unarmed black people were killed last year is true only if one places a large number of caveats: the person was proven to be unarmed, not "unclear" etc, the cause of death is limited only to shooting, etc. Essentially, it's limiting the definition of what counts until there are very few cases, and then saying "look! very few cases", which is chill I guess if you're out to support a point, but not so much if you're trying to get an accurate picture of what's actually happening? Here's some more information on the sources of data "mapping police violence" uses. That was sort of my point. That Fox news commentator is not discussing things in a serious manner. He’s just a guy manipulating things to appease the audience. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, SDS said: That was sort of my point. That Fox news commentator is not discussing things in a serious manner. He’s just a guy manipulating things to appease the audience. I appreciate that. I thought it was useful to provide a source and some data. I suppose I wish to add that the whole armed/unarmed thing - as far as I know, the civilian is counted as "armed" if he has a firearm in his possession, not drawn or pointed at the police. For example, in 2011, Anthony Lamar Smith would be listed as "armed" even though there's question as to how the gun got in his car; Philando Castile was listed as "armed" although he was reaching for his license and registration and simply acknowledged being licensed to carry a weapon; etc etc.
Sig1Hunter Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'd appreciate the source on the 2015 "contacts" thing. Thanks. With regard to the statistics for "nine unarmed black people", I think you're not properly qualifying that number. Per WaPo, that is 9 unarmed black people who were shot by active-duty police officers. The "mapping police violence" project gives the number of unarmed blacks shot by police officers as 23. If we included the categories "allegedly armed" (not necessarily proven) or "unclear", the number jumps to 232 police shootings And here we are, protesting the death of a man because a police officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes. So if we included "beaten/restrained, taser, vehicle, and other" it rises to 259. Again all just last year. I'm afraid saying only nine unarmed black people were killed last year is true only if one places a large number of caveats: the person was proven to be unarmed, not "unclear" etc, the cause of death is limited only to shooting, etc. Essentially, it's limiting the definition of what counts until there are very few cases, and then saying "look! very few cases", which is chill I guess if you're out to support a point, but not so much if you're trying to get an accurate picture of what's actually happening? Here's some more information on the sources of data "mapping police violence" uses. I linked it in my response to SDS. I noticed that the stats include death by vehicle in your post. Is that to say that if a cop accidentally crashes into a black person and kills them, that is included? I mean, we can all agree that traffic crashes are one of the major killers of innocent people in this country. But is it an indicator of racist police? What are the numbers for other races? Edit: I see the answer to my question in your link. Edited June 7, 2020 by Sig1Hunter
FireChans Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'd appreciate the source on the 2015 "contacts" thing. Thanks. With regard to the statistics for "nine unarmed black people", I think you're not properly qualifying that number. Per WaPo, that is 9 unarmed black people who were shot by active-duty police officers. The "mapping police violence" project gives the number of unarmed blacks shot by police officers as 23. If we included the categories "allegedly armed" (not necessarily proven) or "unclear", the number jumps to 232 police shootings And here we are, protesting the death of a man because a police officer knelt on his neck for 8 minutes. So if we included "beaten/restrained, taser, vehicle, and other" it rises to 259. Again all just last year. I'm afraid saying only nine unarmed black people were killed last year is true only if one places a large number of caveats: the person was proven to be unarmed, not "unclear" etc, the cause of death is limited only to shooting, officer on active duty (not simply acting in a LE capacity) Essentially, it's limiting the definition of what counts until there are very few cases, and then saying "look! very few cases", which is chill I guess if you're out to support a point, but not so much if you're trying to get an accurate picture of what's actually happening? Here's some more information on the sources of data "mapping police violence" uses. It does not include data from security guards or civilian militias The Philly police study had a neat little category for TPF, which meant threat perception failure. Basically, anybody who reached for their waistband or something similar, but didn’t actually have a weapon, counted. I’d like to see that level of categorization used more often. 1
Happy Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Actually I know of no evidence that Martin Gugino is an "Antifa member" (whatever does that mean anyway?) nor "professional agitator". He's retired (no surprise age 75) and self describes as a "peace activist". https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/05/martin-gugino-pushed-ground-buffalo-police-known-peaceful-man/3160820001/ https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/human-interest/2020/06/05/-more-than-an-injured-protester----martin-gugino--an-activist there's a TBN article but every time I try to get the link it asks me to log in again ?♂️ Anyway I find no evidence that he's an "antifa member", which seems to have become a convenient bucket to use to discredit anyone at a protest. I suppose you could call him a "professional agitator" but what makes a protestor, someone who is passionate about causes and likes to exercise his constitutionally guaranteed free speech rights, distinct from a "professional agitator" - professional usually means paid, what is the evidence of that. https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/06/06/buffalo-officials-duped-by-professional-antifa-provocateur-arrest-and-charge-two-police-officers-righteous-police-team-stand-together-and-walk-out/ This is a conservative media link, because the mainstream media won't cover it honestly; they do not want it disclosed that these protests are ripe for far left organizations to infiltrate and use for a completely different purpose than what was intended. Look at his twitter profile, which is linked in the article and pretty telling.
Sig1Hunter Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: The Philly police study had a neat little category for TPF, which meant threat perception failure. Basically, anybody who reached for their waistband or something similar, but didn’t actually have a weapon, counted. I’d like to see that level of categorization used more often. Suicide by cop.
JoPoy88 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 7 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Do you have anything specious mind? [Edit: did you mean, "do you have anything specific in mind?" -Talking paperclip] I don’t and as a white person I would not even attempt to try because it’s not my place to determine appropriate responses to this issue. Goodell and the league need to work with its black players and leaders to determine what’s appropriate.
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