Max Fischer Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 20 hours ago, K-9 said: Fair points, all. And well stated. I wonder if Goodell senses a shift in the sensibilities of America given the last 10 days. I wonder if the networks do as well even if the current broadcast deal still has a few seasons to run. I agree with the idea of pulling the plug in the NA at the beginning of games. It’s been a farce for a long time given the amount of disrespect I’ve witnessed long before Colin Kaepernick as well as since. Fair point. The NFL, like now the majority of Americans, are getting the right side of history. While it's possible some players (and fans) are *trying* to "disrespect" the flag, nearly all are using the moment to express their Constitutional right to free speech. And that speech means little if it doesn't have an audience and/or impact. To me, and a growing number of Americans, the flag symbolizes those unique Constitutional freedoms that so many have sacrificed to preserve. The protest illustrates the strength of our nation and we should all embrace it. To me, it would be a disturbing sign of weakness to "pull the plug" on the National Anthem and everything our Country stands for around the world. 1
ColoradoBills Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 27 minutes ago, thunderingsquid said: Wise words. My opinions have changed greatly on a number of issue since I was a teenager in the 70's. 2
K-9 Posted June 6, 2020 Author Posted June 6, 2020 51 minutes ago, westside2 said: Why don't you answer the question? Instead of trying to insult. Ok, since my previous answer got deleted by a mod, I’ll try again. No. I don’t have “white guilt” and I’m highly suspicious of anyone who would even use the term. I’ve spent years seriously researching the Civil War; both the lead up to it and, more importantly, the aftermath and the politics it created. Those years included visits to many southern libraries, state houses, and other repositories of archived information to study speeches, letters, etc. by confederate politicians that drove policy. Again, both before and after the civil war. I’ve never suffered from “white guilt” (whatever tf that is) but I realized I suffered from great ignorance of certain events and the people who shaped them. Let’s just say that in educating myself through that exhaustive research, I’ve come to understand a certain level of romanticism and mythology had impacted my understanding of things. It’s about shedding ignorance and race has nothing to do with it. There is no such thing as white guilt, imo. Only ignorance and that holds no race in favor of another.
thebandit27 Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 16 minutes ago, Logic said: I respectfully disagree. I’ll use myself as an example. I have seen countless instances of police brutality against black people over the years. I have not lifted a finger to protest, I have not donated money to any causes that work toward fighting systemic racism, I have not written to politicians about it. Simply posting on social media about it or saying “I don’t support that” isn’t enough. I have a voice, and I haven’t chosen to use it for allyship, and that makes me (inadvertently) complicit. Not any more. I will never fail to use my voice or open up my wallet to be an ally to my black brothers and sisters again. White silence is violence. I admire your introspection. I don’t believe that it qualifies you to say that literally everyone is either racist or complicit. I will simply leave it at that. 2 1
FireChans Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Logic said: If folks don't like the beer ad comparison, how about the "support our troops" week? If people feel that football is not the right forum for political/social issues and the league should "stick to sports", shouldn't we stop with the military flyovers, camouflage gear, and troops at games? Do you believe honoring individual military members at pro sports games is disrespectful?
ColoradoBills Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Logic said: If folks don't like the beer ad comparison, how about the "support our troops" week? If people feel that football is not the right forum for political/social issues and the league should "stick to sports", shouldn't we stop with the military flyovers, camouflage gear, and troops at games? Exactly was I posted about an hour ago. It's up to the NFL to decide what it wants to do. If it wants to be politically and socially relevant than it needs to be that way across the board. Personally I think they should ease back and just concern themselves with sports but that just my opinion.
Happy Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 9 minutes ago, SDS said: They are both messages. What is for the social good the other is to get you drunk. Why is one offensive and one not noticed? Most people do not view a beer ad as offensive, there has been ads for as long as games have been on TV. There are people who do view kneeling during the NA as offensive and disrespectful to the flag/country/vets, etc. Why is it so that beer ads are not noticed and kneelers offensive? Most people don't want to deal with social issues and protests on Sunday afternoons and just want to watch the game.
K-9 Posted June 6, 2020 Author Posted June 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, Max Fischer said: The NFL, like now the majority of Americans, are getting the right side of history. While it's possible some players (and fans) are *trying* to "disrespect" the flag, nearly all are using the moment to express their Constitutional right to free speech. And that speech means little if it doesn't have an audience and/or impact. To me, and a growing number of Americans, the flag symbolizes those unique Constitutional freedoms that so many have sacrificed to preserve. The protest illustrates the strength of our nation and we should all embrace it. To me, it would be a disturbing sign of weakness to "pull the plug" on the National Anthem and everything our Country stands for around the world. Outstanding food for thought here and it illustrates why I feel those protests during the anthem were so powerful; that juxtaposition of the great idea America represents and the very symbol of it. I don’t conflate anthem with flag, though. The idea of America was hatched, it’s tenets put in writing, and blood shed for its birth to take hold well before Francis Scott Key penned his poem.
Happy Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 16 minutes ago, Logic said: Thats literally my point. People who find Kaep’s protest disrespectful seem to feel that his using captive NFL viewership as an audience to his social justice message is wrong. “Stick to sports!”, they say. Meanwhile, Anheuser-Busch uses captive NFL viewership as a way to sell a product that is linked to 88,000 deaths a year in our country, and the same people don’t find THAT disrespectful. Kneeling to bring attention to a cause that wants to SAVE lives is enough to get people to want to turn off their TVs and swear off the NFL. Meanwhile, the constant barrage of ads during an NFL broadcast for a product linked to 88,000 deaths a year doesn’t make them bat an eye. Where’s the “stick to sports!” Cry then? I don't believe most people view kneeling as an act that wants to save lives, as a matter of fact, few probably do. Most people don't view beer ads as something that is trying to kill us, most view enjoying a beer as complimentary to watching a football game. Not once have I turned on a game and said "I can't wait to see who is protesting the NA, should be fun!" I do, however, enjoy a beer during a game. You make some really good posts, but your point here is missing the mark.
Cripple Creek Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 56 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said: Better late than never. I wish it was years ago but I'm glad that Goodell was as clear and direct as he was and that he admitted that the league had gotten it wrong. But you admit they ain’t done nothing yet except provide lip service, right? If nothing in the NFL (or society) changes we’ll be right back here sooner than later. 1
Logic Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: I admire your introspection. I don’t believe that it qualifies you to say that literally everyone is either racist or complicit. I will simply leave it at that. Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. My position is that anyone who has not directly acted (be it through donation or other peaceful action), who has sat in silence as these things happened over the years and done nothing to help put an end to them, is, through their non-participation, complicit. I will simply leave it at that. 13 minutes ago, FireChans said: Do you believe honoring individual military members at pro sports games is disrespectful? Do you believe that kneeling quietly to bring attention to racist police brutality is disrespectful? 1
FireChans Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Logic said: Fair enough. We can agree to disagree. My position is that anyone who has not directly acted (be it through donation or other peaceful action), who has sat in silence as these things happened over the years and done nothing to help put an end to them, is, through their non-participation, complicit. I will simply leave it at that. Do you believe that kneeling quietly to bring attention to racist police brutality is disrespectful? Certainly a decent portion of folks do/did when it was during the national anthem. Edited June 6, 2020 by FireChans
SDS Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 53 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said: So it’s only middle aged white males who have voted these people in? How would you like me to answer that? Composition of votes? Party registration? One example would be the presidential election in 2016. Trump received an astounding 62% of the white male vote (64% of which had a high school education or less). https://www.people-press.org/2018/08/09/an-examination-of-the-2016-electorate-based-on-validated-voters/ Demographics of conservative talk radio (where white men listen to other white men discuss what is wrong with everyone else not like them) is overwhelmingly middle-age white men. Anything else? 5 2
Logic Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, FireChans said: Certainly a decent portion of folks do/did when it was during the national anthem. Do you also find it disrespectful to stand in line for beer, chatting with your friends in the stadium concourse during the anthem? How about urinating in the stadium bathrooms during the national anthem? Edited June 6, 2020 by Logic
ProcessAccepted Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: But you admit they ain’t done nothing yet except provide lip service, right? If nothing in the NFL (or society) changes we’ll be right back here sooner than later. I completely admit that so far it's just words. I was really surprised when I watched the video especially when he said that he encouraged the players to protest and that the league now supports the #BlackLivesMatter movement. The league absolutely has to back these words up with actions otherwise it's just words. Looking at the crowds and how diverse the protesters are is a huge step forward this time and makes me optimistic for the future. I have not seen this before since I moved to the US in '94. With that being said nothing should be taken for granted and organizations like the NFL need to do more that tweet etc... 2 1
SDS Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 22 minutes ago, Happy said: Most people do not view a beer ad as offensive, there has been ads for as long as games have been on TV. There are people who do view kneeling during the NA as offensive and disrespectful to the flag/country/vets, etc. Why is it so that beer ads are not noticed and kneelers offensive? Most people don't want to deal with social issues and protests on Sunday afternoons and just want to watch the game. Comfort is what got us here today. If you are uncomfortable, then maybe ask yourself why. 2 3
FireChans Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Logic said: Do you also find it disrespectful to stand in line for beer, chatting with your friends in the stadium concourse during the anthem? How about urinating during the national anthem? I don’t. Those folks aren’t really there when the anthem is played, like talking at concessions during a play vs talking in the auditorium. I’m sure some do. Some folks think it’s disrespectful to sit during the anthem, or to wear a hat. A lot of those folks think kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. They don’t think that a beer ad at halftime is comparable for obvious reasons. 1
HamSandwhich Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SDS said: How would you like me to answer that? Composition of votes? Party registration? One example would be the presidential election in 2016. Trump received an astounding 62% of the white male vote (64% of which had a high school education or less). https://www.people-press.org/2018/08/09/an-examination-of-the-2016-electorate-based-on-validated-voters/ Demographics of conservative talk radio (where white men listen to other white men discuss what is wrong with everyone else not like them) is overwhelmingly middle-age white men. Anything else? Your connotation is that it was only white males. Could there have been any others? Could there be middle aged white males that voted for Hillary? You’re generalizations are sweeping. If you’re going to say he would not have been voted in if not for middle aged white males, the same could be said by any group who voted for him. You don’t get to pick and choose. Might surprise you to know that there were actually minorities who voted for him. I’m sure you know that though, you just choose to highlight to make your point seem unassailable. Instead, if you just look a little bit under the surface, it’s just a house of cards. Edited June 6, 2020 by HamSandwhich
Logic Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: I don’t. Those folks aren’t really there when the anthem is played, like talking at concessions during a play vs talking in the auditorium. I’m sure some do. Some folks think it’s disrespectful to sit during the anthem, or to wear a hat. A lot of those folks think kneeling during the anthem is disrespectful. They don’t think that a beer ad at halftime is comparable for obvious reasons. Fair enough. Count me among those who don’t find quietly taking a knee during the anthem to be disrespectful. Taking a knee is, in my view, a gesture of reverence, not disrespect. Here is a link to a letter of support to Kaep from American military personnel. https://www.google.com/amp/s/theundefeated.com/features/an-open-letter-from-american-military-veterans-in-support-of-colin-kaepernick/amp/ A Washington Post poll found that 53% of Americans find it disrespectful. Pretty close to a 50-50 split. Im curious what it is about the gesture of kneeling that people find disrespectful, personally. It has historically been a reverent, respectful gesture.
klos63 Posted June 6, 2020 Posted June 6, 2020 1 hour ago, HamSandwhich said: Can reasonable people agree with the statement you are referencing or are they unreasonable because they don’t go with the flow? The virtue signaling by large companies in this country is astounding. Don’t mistake what it’s a about, $$$. reasonable people can disagree that social causes and pro sports are a bad mix. That was my reference.
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