NoHuddleKelly12 Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 An issue with these lists is that they are based on a subjective premise as to what is deemed “average” to below in your qualification. Since we aren’t privy to the data used to come up with such a qualification, there’s an inherent problem. If you try to make an objective point using a flawed and/or subjective data set, let’s at least also be up front about the unreliability of the results. 2
RoyBatty is alive Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 33 minutes ago, Billl said: Most? Yeah Most, you have Keenum and Dalton listed as losing their jobs.
prissythecat Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 21 minutes ago, Billl said: You’d prefer to pay $25,000,000 to a 39 year old QB who threw 23 TDs and 20 INTs while going 5-11 than pay $15,000,000 to a 28 year old who threw 18 TDs and 6 INTs while going 7-8? You do realize you are doing an apples to oranges comparison? How well did Dalton do when the Bengals were still a stacked team back around 2015-2016?
Billl Posted June 5, 2020 Author Posted June 5, 2020 1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said: Yeah Most, you have Keenum and Dalton listed as losing their jobs. 55 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: What, that most that kept their jobs were white? Read your two statements again. 100% of average or below QBs who kept their jobs are white. 75% of average or below white QBs kept their jobs. 0% of average or below QBs who kept their jobs are non-white. 57% of QBs who lost their jobs are non-white (of European descent). There is a lot of room for mediocre white QBs to start in the NFL. There is virtually zero room for mediocre non-white QBs to start in the NFL. 5 minutes ago, prissythecat said: You do realize you are doing an apples to oranges comparison? How well did Dalton do when the Bengals were still a stacked team back around 2015-2016? What does Andy Dalton have to do with a comparison between Jacoby Brissett and Philip Rivers?
WhoTom Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 Unless you're in the Lake Wobegon Football League, the majority of QBs will be, by definition, average. Teams tolerate it not because they're happy with mediocrity, but because there's a shortage of elite QBs.
ColoradoBills Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 31 minutes ago, boater said: There are 32 teams, and about 15 franchise quarterbacks. That sizable gap is going to lead all kinds of head scratching situations. It's not that there is a tolerance for mediocrity. It's that most teams simply don't have any better options. Of course. 1 hour ago, Billl said: I was looking at a ranking of 2020 projected starting QBs, and there is a lot of mediocrity out there. More than that, there is a lot of tolerance for mediocrity, as teams keep bringing them back as starters. I put together a quick list of QBs that I would say are roughly average or below who were either opening day starters last year and who are slated as starters in 2020. I removed those who were rookies last season, as giving a rookie a second year is different than a veteran. Rivers Garoppolo Goff Cousins Mayfield Carr Fitzpatrick Allen Darnold Brady Foles/Trubisky Here’s a list of opening day starters from last season who are still in the league (haven’t retired) but aren’t slated to be starters in 2020. Winston Dalton Keenum Mariota Brissett Newton Keenum So that’s 19 starters from last season who were roughly average to below average, weren’t rookies, and who didn’t retire. 12 of them are either scheduled to be starters or are competing to start in 2020. That’s a pretty good gig. You’ve got a 63% to keep your job as a starter year over year even if you’re average or below. I’d be curious to see what people here think about the two lists. Is there anything that stands out when comparing the list of QBs who kept their starting jobs to those who lost theirs? It's not mediocrity as much as it's what the average NFL QB is capable of. There is a very limited amount of QBs in the NFL that can surpass average. Some of those who do are in the right place at the right time with the right players and coaches. 1
Billl Posted June 5, 2020 Author Posted June 5, 2020 1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said: Of course. It's not mediocrity as much as it's what the average NFL QB is capable of. There is a very limited amount of QBs in the NFL that can surpass average. Some of those who do are in the right place at the right time with the right players and coaches. And they’re always white. 1
RoyBatty is alive Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 Just now, Billl said: Read your two statements again. 100% of average or below QBs who kept their jobs are white. 75% of average or below white QBs kept their jobs. 0% of average or below QBs who kept their jobs are non-white. 57% of QBs who lost their jobs are non-white (of European descent). There is a lot of room for mediocre white QBs to start in the NFL. There is virtually zero room for mediocre non-white QBs to start in the NFL. So you wanted to make this QB a another race event, go it. Why not just c0me out and say what your intetent was from the beginning instead of attacking those that disagree with your lists. Where is Tyrod Taylor or Dwayne Haskins on your list? Kyler Murray or Teddy Bridgewater? Strange, funny here goes your narrative down in flames. Is Dak Prescott suddenly elite? 1
Billl Posted June 5, 2020 Author Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) In 2019, 8 black QBs started at least half a season. Their average stats for the season were: 4,588 yards passing 33 TDs 11 INTs That’s a HOF level performance. Literally, the average black starting QB played at a HOF level. 2 of those 8 lost their starting jobs. That’s how good you have to be to keep your job as a black QB in the NFL. Play at a HOF level? Keep your job for another year. Have a mediocre season? Get replaced by a washed up white guy making double what you do. Edited June 5, 2020 by Billl 1
Billl Posted June 5, 2020 Author Posted June 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: So you wanted to make this QB a another race event, go it. Why not just c0me out and say what your intetent was from the beginning instead of attacking those that disagree with your lists. Where is Tyrod Taylor or Dwayne Haskins on your list? Kyler Murray or Teddy Bridgewater? Strange, funny here goes your narrative down in flames. Is Dak Prescott suddenly elite? Did you even read the OP? Tyrod wasn’t a starter to begin last season. Neither was Teddy. Haskins and Murray were rookies. Try to keep up.
ColoradoBills Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Billl said: And they’re always white. Good grief, you and I are done. I gave you a reasonable realistic explanation that the vast majority of QBs in the league are average and there are only a few elite QBs. Your foolish attempt to troll this board at times is laughable. Edited June 5, 2020 by ColoradoBills 1
Augie Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said: An issue with these lists is that they are based on a subjective premise as to what is deemed “average” to below in your qualification. Since we aren’t privy to the data used to come up with such a qualification, there’s an inherent problem. If you try to make an objective point using a flawed and/or subjective data set, let’s at least also be up front about the unreliability of the results. Lumping things together like that is proof of nothing. Maybe Allen and Darnold will be next to join the backup pool, but are just a few years behind Marriota and Winston in their opportunity to prove themselves? Winston had a whopping 35 turnovers last year! Does he deserve a starting job? Maybe with the right coaching he can be saved? In this day and age, it’s all about WINNING in the NFL. If you give a team the best chance, you’ll get a shot. If you fail, they will look to replace you. Period. . Edited June 5, 2020 by Augie 1 1
thebandit27 Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 It’s the easiest thing on earth for anyone that studies the game to see: the ones that lost their jobs had contracts that were easy to get out of. Done. 1
Kirby Jackson Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 I really don’t view it as a ton of mediocrity. There are some young guys ascending and some older guys descending. We really have no idea if Darnold/Allen/Mayfield/Wentz/Goff are going to be great, terrible or mediocre. The middle class of the league are the guys in the bottom that have proven that they can start and be okay. Mediocrity to me is Keenum, Dalton, Taylor, Mariota, Jameis, Fitz, Brissett, Foles, Carr and Bridgewater. A few of those are debatable and there are probably more that could be added. That’s just off the top of my head. 1
thebandit27 Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 32 minutes ago, Billl said: And they’re always white. You’re once again looking for trouble. If what you’re implying were indeed the case, why would the Panthers cut Newton and hand starting money to Bridgewater? Case closed. You’re making an uproar over Brissett and Winston. 1
JESSEFEFFER Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 Winston and Brissett? You're complaining that they lost their starting jobs to Brady and Rivers? And you're giving them credit for the production generated by the six who are keeping their jobs including Mahomes, Jackson, Wilson? How many times has Fitz been replaced? How many games does he start this year until Tua is ready and replaces him? Either you make a convincing case for being the long term answer for your team by your 4th season in the league or your're moving on. Black or white. 1 2
Florida Bills Fanatic Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Tesla03 said: Allen is average to mediocre tho, thats why so many of us are waiting to see if he can break out of that category in his 3rd season. last season we were carried to 10 wins by our 2nd ranked defense, can't remember a single game where our offense and Allen took a choke hold of the game and willed us to victory. We should all not forget that the overall receiving talent on the team was below average at best. Diggs and some improvement by the TE position should change that. Allen will probably make some improvement but whether it is enough to move the team significantly forward will be the real metric to watch.
prissythecat Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 52 minutes ago, Billl said: What does Andy Dalton have to do with a comparison between Jacoby Brissett and Philip Rivers? Your response that I quoted was in response to someone talking about Dalton and Dak. No where did I see mention of Brissett and Rivers.
SoTier Posted June 5, 2020 Posted June 5, 2020 34 minutes ago, Billl said: Read your two statements again. 100% of average or below QBs who kept their jobs are white. 75% of average or below white QBs kept their jobs. 0% of average or below QBs who kept their jobs are non-white. 57% of QBs who lost their jobs are non-white (of European descent). There is a lot of room for mediocre white QBs to start in the NFL. There is virtually zero room for mediocre non-white QBs to start in the NFL. What does Andy Dalton have to do with a comparison between Jacoby Brissett and Philip Rivers? Jameis Winston threw for the infamous 30/30 ... 30 TDs and 30 INTs, including IIRC, enough pick sixes to approach, tie or break the NFL season record. That's not "mediocre". That's terrible. Even average QBs are expected to throw more TDs than INTs. I don't think Jacoby Brissett is listed behind Phillip Rivers because he's black. I think the Colts don't think he's quite good enough. I think they also believe that they're a better QB from being a SB contender, so they're willing to see if Rivers has something left in the tank. I personally would have preferred Dalton to Rivers, but Dalton was still with the Bengals when the Colts signed Rivers. 20 minutes ago, Billl said: In 2019, 8 black QBs started at least half a season. Their average stats for the season were: 4,588 yards passing 33 TDs 11 INTs That’s a HOF level performance. Literally, the average black starting QB played at a HOF level. 2 of those 8 lost their starting jobs. That’s how good you have to be to keep your job as a black QB in the NFL. Play at a HOF level? Keep your job for another year. Have a mediocre season? Get replaced by a washed up white guy making double what you do. That's nice, but your original parameters conveniently left out black QBs like Tyrod Taylor and Teddy Bridgewater, both of whom will will likely be starters for their teams on opening day. That's kind of the old "skew the params" so that my data will support what I want to prove. Your premise -- that it's harder for black QBs to get and keep starting gigs than white ones -- is probably correct but your numbers don't prove it. More importantly, Jameis Winston isn't the only starting QB from his draft class to get kicked to the curb last season. Marcus Mariota also lost his starting job. In both cases, maybe their teams should have sent them packing sooner because neither has been more than barely competent as starters, but teams don't like to give up on QBs they drafted high. When it came time to shell out big bucks for either, they were both cut loose -- as was Blake Bortles, another below average starter, at the end of his rookie contract.
Billl Posted June 5, 2020 Author Posted June 5, 2020 43 minutes ago, prissythecat said: Your response that I quoted was in response to someone talking about Dalton and Dak. No where did I see mention of Brissett and Rivers. The QBs below are Brissett and Rivers. Brissett had a higher QB rating, a better record, makes $10,000,000 less than Rivers, is 11 years younger than Rivers, and lost his job to Rivers. 2 hours ago, Billl said: You’d prefer to pay $25,000,000 to a 39 year old QB who threw 23 TDs and 20 INTs while going 5-11 than pay $15,000,000 to a 28 year old who threw 18 TDs and 6 INTs while going 7-8?
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