Defund the Police?

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

😂 the idea that criminals have a right to self defense but cops don’t. I want whatever you’re smoking 

Dude that is easy. Cops never ever EVER kill on the defense.  They only kill on offense. 

[LeviF]

Just now, BullBuchanan said:

It seems you're confused about what's being talked about here or you're looking to prop up a strawman. Police using commensurate force in self-defense is not the target of anyone's ire here, or in protests.

Most every (say his) name propped up by your astroturfed buddies at the “protests” were feloniously assaulting a police officer at the time of their death. Going all the way back to the original hands up don’t shoot lie. I know more about this than you could ever hope to. Don’t ***** in my hand and call it chocolate soft serve, brother. 

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

Dude that is easy. Cops never ever EVER kill on the defense.  They only kill on offense. 

My squad has a terrible QB and every receiver has awful hands. Nobody’s killing anyone on offense here. 

[BullBuchanan]

25 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Again you are making a VERY failed argument comparing the dangers of different professions. How much time do farmers, loggers, fishermen spend in public during their line of work?  I grew up with farmers and that number is virtually zero.  The chance of getting killed/injured in a profession is not part of the conversation.  It’s the manner in which they are killed/injured.  Again you’re comparing apples to monkey wrenches.   The only profession you are close to a comparison is taxi drivers. 
 

Who is giving them a pass for unbridled violence?  No one!  So there is nothing there to help you understand.  
 

What pretty much everyone here has an issue with is you seem to paint with a broad brush.  A vast majority of cops are great at what they do.  It’s kind of like planes vs autos. Autos kill a hell of a lot more people than planes every year but when a plane goes down it makes headline news 

Why does the manner in which they get killed excuse them from violence, and if that's your argument why don't Taxi drivers who are the victims of homicide at a rate 66% higher than police not excessively violent?

So no you're saying no one gives them a pass for violence? Have you looked at my police brutality thread? It's nothing but excuses up and down. You personally have commented on the dangerous nature of their jobs as an excuse for their violence. 

And then you want to make the "few bad apples" argument. How? How on earth do you know that the "vast majority are great at what they do"? What gives you that confidence in the face of extraordinary evidence to the contrary?

We rank higher than every other industrialized nation in citizens killed by police per 10M. There are hundreds if not thousands of recent videos where groups of cops acted irresponsibly or violently or watched it happen and did nothing.

Seriously, at what point do you say the problem isn't a few bad people but a problem with the organization?

22 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

Most every (say his) name propped up by your astroturfed buddies at the “protests” were feloniously assaulting a police officer at the time of their death. Going all the way back to the original hands up don’t shoot lie. I know more about this than you could ever hope to. Don’t ***** in my hand and call it chocolate soft serve, brother. 

Donny, you're out of your element. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by BullBuchanan

[BullBuchanan]

4 more of that "vast majority" of good cops I bet

https://www.yahoo.com/news/four-louisiana-police-officers-indicted-122635067.html

[LeviF]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

Donny, you're out of your element. 

Why’d you change your post? If what I said is so easily disproven then surely in a few simple sentences you could just blast away instead of quoting overrated Gen X aesthetic cinema. 

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

4 more of that "vast majority" of good cops I bet

https://www.yahoo.com/news/four-louisiana-police-officers-indicted-122635067.html

What percentage of the Shreveport PD so these 4 represent?   

[Rob's House]

15 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

I also agree on better training for de-escalation.

Based on a lot of the body cams that have come out over the years though it seems a lot of these controversial interactions with police aren't as much police with good intentions who just don't know how to de-escalate as much as it is police officers who take violent approaches because that's what they set out to do. Maybe that's more in the realm of conditioning or maybe it's part of the hiring process, but I do think there are plenty of examples we can look at where police took a very violent approach when many options were available.
-------

 

I actually agree with this to a point, but it lacks the context required to draw any meaningful conclusions. It's a question of scale.

 

How often does this happen? How is it handled? Is this the norm or is it an anomaly? Plucking random anecdotes tells us almost nothing.

 

Are these incidents "systemic," or are we talking about a small handful of bad apples? 

 

If it is a "systemic" problem, is it uniform throughout the thousands of independently managed law enforcement departments across the country? How do we know?

 

To have any meaningful discussion on the topic you have to be able to answer these questions. However, they are seldom, if ever, answered with anything other than conjecture supported only with bias.

 

Just because you have a conception of something doesn't make it accurate. More often it's a case of having an image in your head that was formed by incomplete information you acquired while in a state of abject ignorance, which is weighted in descending chronological order to which it was received, and has since been uncritically supported by confirmation bias.

[Hedge]

 

Quote

Seattle now has on its payroll a convicted pimp who once vowed to “go to war” with the city — a $150,000 “street czar” whose mission is to come up with “alternatives to policing,” reports said.

Andre Taylor — who appeared in the documentary “American Pimp” about his life as “Gorgeous Dre” — is getting $12,500 per month for a year, along with an office in Seattle’s Municipal Tower, according to the contract published by PubliCola.

...

He was later accused of trying to get millions from the city for militants who set up the controversial police-free Capitol Hill Occupied Protest (CHOP) zone, the Seattle Times said.

“Don’t just leave. Leave with something,” he told activists in a meeting caught in a recording, telling them to demand $2 million to exit the site of much of the city’s worst violence this year, the report said. They ignored his advice, the paper said, with one saying the money grab felt “off.”

Some of those militants then accused him of betraying them, too, when he appeared at a press conference with the mayor to tell them to shut down CHOP — the same day he was given his six-figure contract, the paper said.

...

Some of the girls he pimped for were underage, according to court reports in the Las Vegas Sun.

“I was born from the streets; I come out of the deep darkness,” he said in a YouTube video earlier this year, bragging how he “had children with some of the women who were with me” when he was a pimp.

 

[Uncle Joe]

Also in Seattle:
Columbia Sportswear will leave downtown Seattle, the latest in a string of closures

https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2020/09/columbia-sportswear-will-leave-downtown-seattle-the-latest-in-a-string-of-closures.html
"In yet another sign of COVID-19′s mounting economic costs, the Columbia Sportswear store has joined the list of businesses that won’t reopen in downtown Seattle after the pandemic.

Columbia Sportswear, one of Oregon’s largest companies, hasn’t publicly commented on the fate of the store at Third Avenue and Pine Street. It was looted during the May 30 protests and is currently boarded up."

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

5 hours ago, Hedge said:

 

 

 

..probably should run for Mayor....shoo-in landslide...................

[Unforgiven]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8756911/Defund-police-activist-Alyssa-Milano-sparks-massive-police-presence-calling-911.html

 

"Defund the police" activist Alyssa Milano thought she was in danger on Sunday and called ... the police

Hilarity.

[Just Joshin']

30 minutes ago, Unforgiven said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8756911/Defund-police-activist-Alyssa-Milano-sparks-massive-police-presence-calling-911.html

 

"Defund the police" activist Alyssa Milano thought she was in danger on Sunday and called ... the police

Hilarity.

She meant defund the police for poor people, not the liberal privileged.

[Dragoon]

Cops need higher standards...you can’t just demand it, you gotta pay for it. Policing standards must go up, up, up.

 

Defunding the police is stupid...unless you hate civilization. Typically when I have a problem I find that by working on it, and investing more into it, I get better results. 

[Nanker]

Cops kill two. 

[BullBuchanan]

8 hours ago, Rob's House said:

 

I actually agree with this to a point, but it lacks the context required to draw any meaningful conclusions. It's a question of scale.

 

How often does this happen? How is it handled? Is this the norm or is it an anomaly? Plucking random anecdotes tells us almost nothing.

 

Are these incidents "systemic," or are we talking about a small handful of bad apples? 

 

If it is a "systemic" problem, is it uniform throughout the thousands of independently managed law enforcement departments across the country? How do we know?

 

To have any meaningful discussion on the topic you have to be able to answer these questions. However, they are seldom, if ever, answered with anything other than conjecture supported only with bias.

 

Just because you have a conception of something doesn't make it accurate. More often it's a case of having an image in your head that was formed by incomplete information you acquired while in a state of abject ignorance, which is weighted in descending chronological order to which it was received, and has since been uncritically supported by confirmation bias.

My argument that it is systemic - that excessive violence is in fact inherent to being a police officer. I also further claim that leniency in bias of officers is also systemic within the court system. I've also posted the supporting evidence numerous times, but I'll do it once more. As for the sources, I'm not going to waste my time just to get trolled.

American police kill more people per 10M citizens than any other developed nation
Our police kill the 6th most overall and we aren't in good company
Beyond just death, incidents of police brutality and excessive force is a major concern, but empirical data here is tough to capture the extent.

There are many documented incidents of police covering badge numbers at protests
We rank at the bottom of all developed countries in the World Press Freedom Index
Hundreds of journalists have been documented being attacked and arrested by the police while covering the protests.
There are dozens and dozens of videos of police instigating violence in the presence of large groups of fellow officers, several of which I've posted and those officers do nothing to address the conduct of their fellow officers. They either do nothing, or they join in.
The extremely similar documented video evidence of police violently escalating situations in groups would seem to imply that in these cases the escalating violence is part of the training, part of the hiring, or both.
The extremely similar tone and messaging exposed by police when they aren't aware that they're being recorded shows a pattern of beliefs and thought process 
The FBI has found gangs and white supremacist organizations imbedded within police departments

Not every single cop is a skinhead, maces children, peppersrays an entire group peaceful college students in the face, kills an innocent man's dog, violently attacks journalists, utilizes kettling techniques to instigate violence, commits murder, beats their wives and kids, and on on. For the cops that aren't though, it doesn't seem to be a deal breaker to work with these people and back their play. That's why it's systemic. 

There are a lot of police in this country, a lot. It should be expected that are certain amount of them are indeed just bad hires that slipped through the cracks. That's not what I'm on about here. I'm talking about a culture that attracts and promotes violent behavior and does every single thing it can to prevent owning their mistakes and punishing those responsible.

Despite what some have suggested, I'm not trying to promote anarchy - quite the opposite really. I don't want murderers, rapists, and abusers on the streets I want law enforcement, but I want just enforcement. Just because you are a suspected criminal doesn't mean the police should be able to beat the ***** out of you or end your life. They are not judge, jury, or executioner, and they get things wrong - a lot. The amount of misconduct cases settled per year are in the thousands and the cost to taxpayers is staggering.

I seem to be in the minority here but I don't think fleeing from police or even resisting arrest should be signing your own death warrant. Force should be commensurate with the danger a person currently poses in order to protect others first and yourself second.

[Buffalo_Gal]

Seattle City Council votes to override Mayor Durkan's budget veto
 

The Seattle City Council voted 7-2 Tuesday evening to override a veto by Mayor Jenny Durkan of three budget bills that would have halted sharp cuts to the budget of the Seattle Police Department.
 

</snip>
 

As part of the amended budget proposed by the council, which has now been officially adopted, the spending plan calls for:

* Cutting the police department staff by roughly 100 officers;
* Eliminating the department's Navigation Team, which serves as an outreach effort to the homeless. The council voted 7-2 to override this budget bill, while voting 9-0 to override the other budget bills.
* Trimming the salaries of SPD’s command staff.

The Council’s 2020 amended budget will strip the department of roughly $3 million, which equates to less than a 1 percent defunding of the department’s 2020 budget.
 

</snip>
 

“Votes do have consequences," Nyland said in the statement. "Because of Council’s actions today, the Navigation team will be eliminated, severely restricting the City’s ability to move people out of homelessness and deal with encampments for the rest of this year. The City will move forward with layoffs for the City staff who are coordinating and helping individuals experiencing homelessness at encampments across the City.”
 

</snip>
 

The council on Aug. 10 voted 7-1 to approve the spending plan that will reduce funding to the police department by 14 percent for the remainder of this year. The budget approved by the council, however, was far below the 50 percent reduction that some members had lobbied for and community groups had demanded. But the vote led to a formal and informal efforts to recall some council members.
 

</snip>

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

By paying no taxes aren’t you defunding the police?

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

On 9/22/2020 at 5:56 PM, Unforgiven said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8756911/Defund-police-activist-Alyssa-Milano-sparks-massive-police-presence-calling-911.html

 

"Defund the police" activist Alyssa Milano thought she was in danger on Sunday and called ... the police

Hilarity.

Pure comedy.  I can't wait to hear her "rationalization" between her desire to defund the cops and her need for their assistance.  Recognizing her as an advocate of defuding the 911 operator should have told her to call Ghostbusters.  

Edited September 28, 2020 by All_Pro_Bills

[Alaska Darin]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Pure comedy.  I can't wait to hear her "rationalization" between her desire to defund the cops and her need for their assistance.  Recognizing her as an advocate of defuding the 911 operator should have told her to call Ghostbusters.  

Well, she doesn't have a gun...so...