Defund the Police?

[Westside]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Wow, just wow. 

Why do you hate black people and black communities?

43 minutes ago, Tux of Borg said:

Where is the media coverage about what happened down in Atlanta last night?  
 

Officers from multiple zones walked out at the start of shift leaving empty police prescients.  At one point they had over 600 pending calls for service.  Atlanta requested outside agency help and most refused to assist.  
 

This is radio traffic of them removing weapons from the Zone 6 prescient around 1 am this morning.  
 

https://mobile.twitter.com/katja_gq/status/1273491965590585344?s=20

 

 

Now you want police? Good God make up your damn mind!

[Westside]

33 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Tomorrow is Juneteeth. Atlanta is gonna be lit. Like, literally lit on fire. 



 

Let it burn, that's what they want. In fact, I wouldn't mind if all the liberal cities burned to the ground!

[billsfan1959]

12 hours ago, ALF said:

 

I respect your opinion because of your experience. How would you have handled the Brooks case in Atlanta as police not the DA . One story I seen on the news he was on parole and was terrified to go back to prison and panicked.

 

Hey, Alf, I wanted to reply, so, here are my thoughts from a little different perspective:

 

The officers interacted with Brooks for a considerable amount of time prior to their attempt to arrest him. They were courteous, respectful, and completely professional the entire interaction. When they attempted to arrest Brooks, he chose, in that moment, to resist arrest and fight with the police. The officers did nothing whatsoever to provoke it.

 

Once Brooks began fighting with the officers, particularly once all three were on the ground, there are only two thoughts going through the officer's minds: (1) Subduing Brooks and (2) survival - and they go hand in hand. However, they are responding as they are trained and, even in the midst of the fight, they are still giving commands and engaging in the least amount of force they can to subdue him. At one point, Officer Brosnan is on his back, Brooks has taken his taser away, and Brooks punches Officer Rolfe in the side of the face as Brooks gets to his feet. 

 

Officer Rolfe gets to his feet and draws his taser. Keep in mind, Officer Rolfe would have been completely justified in drawing his handgun at this point; however, he chooses the lesser amount of force and draws his taser. Brooks then runs and Officer Rolfe pursues him as Officer Brosnan is still on the ground.

 

Now this is where, for some, such as you, it appears to be an instance of an officer who simply shoots an unarmed man in the back when he could have just let him go. For me, it is much more of a gray area. From the moment Brooks takes off running until the shots are fired is less than 6 seconds. Officer Brosnan is still on the ground as the pursuit begins and Officer Rolfe has no idea if his partner is incapacitated as he pursues Brooks.

 

Now, you might think the wisest course of action at this point is to just let Brooks go. However, Brooks has already shown a propensity for violence against the officers, is now considered a threat to the officers and anyone he encounters, and Officer Rolfe follows both training and policy in his  pursuit of Brooks. He is absolutely right to do so. They are within 10 feet or so and Officer Rolfe is still issuing commands and has not drawn his handgun.  As Officer Rolfe closes the distance between he and Brooks, Brooks clearly turns, raises his arm and fires the taser.

 

Now, Officer Rolfe, to this point, has acted completely according to his training, according to policy, and has continually chosen the least severe amount of force available to him. It was only after Brooks raised his arm and fired the taser that Officer Rolfe drew his weapon and fired. We all have the benefit of knowing the entirety of the situation; however, we do not know what Officer Rolfe knew or believed in that moment. 

 

1) When Brooks fired the taser, he showed a willingness to escalate the violence to another level. Did this now make him an even more dangerous threat to the officer and anyone he might encounter?

 

2) Did Officer Rolfe believe at this point that his partner was down and if Brooks hit him with the taser then they would both be down and at the mercy of someone who had already shown a willingness to be aggressive and escalate the violence? 

 

3) Did he know that Rolfe was armed only with a taser? Could he have believed, in the nightime, when he sees Brooks raise his arm, sees a flash, and hears a loud noise (all present on the video) that maybe Brooks had also taken his partner's handgun? 

 

I have many more questions; however I will leave it at that. I had no problem condemning the actions of Officer Chauvin in George Floyd's death, jut as I have had no problem holding Officers accountable for the unjustified use of force in other instances. This instance is much more of a gray area for me.

 

This was not a simple instance of an officer shooting a fleeing, unarmed suspect. As a general rule, I am not in favor of shooting fleeing suspects unless the Officer can articulate an imminent threat to himself/herself or others. I cannot reach a definitive conclusion regarding Officer Rolfe's actions without knowing his thoughts on what happened. However, given that he continually stayed within his training and policy, and continually chose the least amount of force until the very moment Brooks raised his arm and fired that taser, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I hear all of the facts.

 

I do know this: Rayshard Brooks was 100% responsible for creating the circumstances in which he died. It doesn't mean he deserved to die; however, he would be alive and unharmed if he just complied with the officers.

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by billsfan1959

[B-Man]

 

 

 

[whatdrought]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Tomorrow is Juneteeth. Atlanta is gonna be lit. Like, literally lit on fire. 



 

 

Of all the cities I've been to, this is the one I am most in favor of turning to ash. Hate that place.

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, Jaraxxus said:

 

Yeah, it's pretty trash, IMO.

 

 

Between the traffic, the smell, and the heat it's pretty worthless in general. 

[ALF]

billsfan1959  thanks for your answer , if Officer Brosnan had his gun taken he would have yelled that out or radio.  The severe civil unrest in the country police need to take extreme caution not to make matters worse but protect themselves at all cost. I don't want to see rioting , looting , police injured and reduced funding.

 

I do not want to see charges or loss of job against Officer Brosnan . He made a mistake stepping on Brooks during a high stress event. 

 

Garrett Rolfe on the other hand needs a fair trial and I agree too many charges against him.

Edited June 18, 2020 by ALF

[B-Man]

 

[Joe Miner]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

billsfan1959  thanks for your answer , if Officer Brosnan had his gun taken he would have yelled that out or radio.  The severe civil unrest in the country police need to take extreme caution not to make matters worse but protect themselves at all cost. I don't want to see rioting , looting , police injured and reduced funding.

 

I do not want to see charges or loss of job against Officer Brosnan . He made a mistake stepping on Brooks during a high stress event. 

 

Garrett Rolfe on the other hand needs a fair trial and I agree too many charges against him.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

You don't know the law. You don't know the training.  You don't know the situation.

 

It's like listening to a Monday morning Bills fan.

[ALF]

3 minutes ago, Joe Miner said:

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

You don't know the law. You don't know the training.  You don't know the situation.

 

It's like listening to a Monday morning Bills fan.

 

Do you prefer riots , looting , police injured , loss of lives , less funding for police instead of restraint ?

[Joe Miner]

Just now, ALF said:

 

Do you prefer riots , looting , police injured , loss of lives , less funding for police instead of restraint ?

 

That's an asinine question.

 

You've echoed the better training mantra and yet in an instance where training is followed you want them to have gone outside of their training and wing it according to your armchair analysis.

 

Maybe you should be present to coach all officers through every encounter so that the outcome you desire each time can be reached? Because obviously you will be able to see the bigger picture in each encounter and make split second decisions based not upon training standards but instead upon your gut feelings to guide all parties to whatever your mind believes is the best outcome for all parties and the country in general.

 

Don't bother learning the law or current practices and procedures, just treat each situation as a unique opportunity for your personalized brand of justice.

 

[ALF]

6 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

It appears he fired it once, on video. Which is nearly contemporaneous with the shots being fired. 

 

Also, the taser does not suddenly become a paperweight when the cartridges have been deployed. It is still a weapon and can be used in direct contact with skin. 
 

 

Just watched the interview with  Officer Brosnan  and his attorney. Brosnan  was tasered by Brooks and the second taser shot fired at   Rolfe who then killed Brooks. Attorney also said Brosnan suffered a concussion in that fight to cuff suspect. He was out of it at that point. 

[reddogblitz]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:17 AM, GregPersons said:

 

"Defund" is correct. "Abolish" is correct. There is no true need for "police." There is a need for social workers and forward-thinking specialized teams to handle and resolve the root causes of civil unrest and crime. Don't take my word for it.  I highly recommend spending time with both this essay AND the comments section to listen to police officers calling for both "defund" and "abolish". https://medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 

 

In a society where everybody's basic needs are met -- which if we do the math.... carry the 1..... yes, in the RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION... we should be able to provide this easily. And still send Elon Musk to Mars without a problem. 

 

I read your article.  Thanks for sharing

 

I do not really doubt this stuff happens.

 

Do you really think this alleged cop's name is A. Cab?  In the disinformation world we live in I am skeptical of most things. Not using  his/her real and using a funny name doesn't help.

 

aside from all that, this was the part I thought had the best benefit to help the situation.

 

Quote

• Police officers will lie about the law, about what’s illegal, or about what they can legally do to you in order to manipulate you into doing what they want.
• Police officers will lie about feeling afraid for their life to justify a use of force after the fact.
• Police officers will lie and tell you they’ll file a police report just to get you off their back.
• Police officers will lie that your cooperation will “look good for you” in court, or that they will “put in a good word for you with the DA.” The police will never help you look good in court.
• Police officers will lie about what they see and hear to access private property to conduct unlawful searches.
• Police officers will lie and say your friend already ratted you out, so you might as well rat them back out. This is almost never true.
• Police officers will lie and say you’re not in trouble in order to get you to exit a location or otherwise make an arrest more convenient for them.
• Police officers will lie and say that they won’t arrest you if you’ll just “be honest with them” so they know what really happened.
• Police officers will lie about their ability to seize the property of friends and family members to coerce a confession.
• Police officers will write obviously bull#### tickets so that they get time-and-a-half overtime fighting them in court.
• Police officers will search places and containers you didn’t consent to and later claim they were open or “smelled like marijuana”.
• Police officers will threaten you with a more serious crime they can’t prove in order to convince you to confess to the lesser crime they really want you for.
• Police officers will employ zero tolerance on races and ethnicities they dislike and show favor and lenience to members of their own group.
• Police officers will use intentionally extra-painful maneuvers and holds during an arrest to provoke “resistance” so they can further assault the suspect.
• Some police officers will plant drugs and weapons on you, sometimes to teach you a lesson, sometimes if they kill you somewhere away from public view.
• Some police officers will assault you to intimidate you and threaten to arrest you if you tell anyone.
• A non-trivial number of police officers will steal from your house or vehicle during a search.
• A non-trivial number of police officers commit intimate partner violence and use their status to get away with it.
• A non-trivial number of police officers use their position to entice, coerce, or force sexual favors from vulnerable people.

If you take nothing else away from this essay, I want you to tattoo this onto your brain forever: if a police officer is telling you something, it is probably a lie designed to gain your compliance.

Do not talk to cops and never, ever believe them. Do not “try to be helpful” with cops. Do not assume they are trying to catch someone else instead of you. Do not assume what they are doing is “important” or even legal. Under no circumstances assume any police officer is acting in good faith.

Also, and this is important, do not talk to cops.

I just remembered something, do not talk to cops.

Checking my notes real quick, something jumped out at me:

Do

not

*****

talk

to

cops.

Ever.

Say, “I don’t answer questions,” and ask if you’re free to leave; if so, leave. If not, tell them you want your lawyer and that, per the Supreme Court, they must terminate questioning. If they don’t, file a complaint and collect some badges for your mantle.

 

cops can legally lie to you but if you lie to them it's a crime. 

 

I have been thinking for  a while that the cop situation would be better for blacks and everyone if they knew their rights when dealing with police.  Ask for a lawyer.

 

I see people get hosed by police for not asking for a lawyer and instead  confess after the cops bald faced lie to them on true crime TV shows where they show the actual police interrogation.  I yell at my TV, ASK FOR A LAWYER.  They rarely do.

 

Officer A. Cab could do much more to help black people if he spoke at black churches and community centers telling people of how to handle dealings with the police than writing anonymous articles and pining for a dream land where all people's needs are met somehow IMHO.

Edited June 18, 2020 by reddogblitz

[Sig1Hunter]

7 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Just watched the interview with  Officer Brosnan  and his attorney. Brosnan  was tasered by Brooks and the second taser shot fired at   Rolfe who then killed Brooks. Attorney also said Brosnan suffered a concussion in that fight to cuff suspect. He was out of it at that point. 

Thanks for clarifying that point. It doesn’t change anything else about what I said though.

[ALF]

2 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Thanks for clarifying that point. It doesn’t change anything else about what I said though.

 

You are a good Officer you have my complete respect , please stay safe. This civil unrest is not the normal.

 

I'm just a old civilian with no law training . So experts like you have to inform us . We have to sit on juries so be patient and explain to us what you are going thru. We want to do what is best for law enforcement but fair for those less fortunate in our society . 

Edited June 18, 2020 by ALF

[B-Man]

 

 

MESSAGES CALL FOR NYPD JULY FOURTH STRIKE TO PROTEST ANTI-POLICE CLIMATE.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bakin]

19 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Many people aren't defending the drunk but question did the cop have to shoot the drunk dead.  When I watched the body cam video what struck me is how the cop and drunk were with each other for 40 minutes or so and how quickly it escalated.  This wasn't an a-hole cop that we've all dealt with at one time or another and the drunk seemed cooperative. 

 

The conversation was friendly so it was likely the drunk would fully comply with him being handcuffed.  However, the guy was drunk so there's always a chance he'll act irrationally and the cop didn't seem ready for that (which goes back to training).  The drunk stole the taser and tried to shoot the officer.  You can die with a taser so the cop feared for his life and shot the guy dead which I believe is allowed in that circumstance.  The DA definitely overreached to both appease the mob and knowing they could get him on a lesser charge. If it's true the cop kicked the guy he just shot dead, he'll probably be found guilty of assault.  The other officer may also if he just stood over his body without providing any kind of medical attention (which also may have to do with lack of training).

 

If you want to look at reform or better training than I think the first thing you can look for is what the cops could've done differently.  They searched him and he had no weapons.  He failed a breathalyzer test.  They had his information.  He wasn't a threat.  Why arrest him when his sister lived a few minutes away and not just drive him home and usher him a court date?  I've seen cops do this in similar circumstances.  This is going to be bad no matter what the verdict is.  Seeing a guy being shot in the back will get the protests and rioters out there if the cop isn't convicted of murder.  If he is, you're going to have a lot of cops quit or retire early arguing he feared for his life and we need some damn latitude to do our jobs without being fearful of our lives being ruined.

No one ... and I mean NO ONE... should defend or give alternate explanations for how the cop should have handled this. 
If Brooks had any respect for authority, he’d still be alive. 
the DA is out of his mind and clearly in deep ***** for his own crimes. He is bloviating and his case will collapse like a burned down Wendy’s. 

10 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

My guess is Choivin will get off. 
Floyd couldn’t breathe before he went to the ground. 
The cop kept him face down to avoid being poisoned by Floyd’s fentanyl overdose. 
autopsy showed no injuries to Floyd neck or throat. 
id give it Better than 50/50 odds he gets off. 

[Hedge]

It seems like she was actually his step-mother, but...

 

 

"Our unwavering commitment to always do the right thing has led us to severe ties with an employee who expressed views that do not align with our culture..."

 

This could have been a conversation like:

"You're step-son is a racist murderer."

"No. He really isn't, he was doing his job."

"FIRED!"

 

I hope we hear her side of this soon.

 

[US Egg]

13 hours ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Tomorrow is Juneteeth. Atlanta is gonna be lit. Like, literally lit on fire. 

Well.....if they want to eliminate the horrid slave freeing General Sherman from history, maybe their burning of Atlanta better, I mean worse than him, will accomplish that goal.

[Rob's House]

8 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I read your article.  Thanks for sharing

 

I do not really doubt this stuff happens.

 

Do you really think this alleged cop's name is A. Cab?  In the disinformation world we live in I am skeptical of most things. Not using  his/her real and using a funny name doesn't help.

 

aside from all that, this was the part I thought had the best benefit to help the situation.

 

 

cops can legally lie to you but if you lie to them it's a crime. 

 

I have been thinking for  a while that the cop situation would be better for blacks and everyone if they knew their rights when dealing with police.  Ask for a lawyer.

 

I see people get hosed by police for not asking for a lawyer and instead  confess after the cops bald faced lie to them on true crime TV shows where they show the actual police interrogation.  I yell at my TV, ASK FOR A LAWYER.  They rarely do.

 

Officer A. Cab could do much more to help black people if he spoke at black churches and community centers telling people of how to handle dealings with the police than writing anonymous articles and pining for a dream land where all people's needs are met somehow IMHO.

 

If people were serious about the issue these are the conversations they'd be having.

 

There are a lot of aspects of the criminal justice system that could be reformed that would go a lot further in addressing unjust outcomes for people of all races than focusing on police practices.

 

Most of the greatest injustices happen in the courtroom where the cop has no official power. In some states prosecutors can stack charges in ways never intended and force a jury trial (juries can't suspend time) which often means risking extra years or decades in prison for the privilege of exercising your right to trial. On top of that, legislators have become increasingly fond of mandatory minimum sentencing, which is categorically abominable.

 

I've seen an innocent man faced with the choice of pleading guilty and serving 2.5 years or go to trial where if convicted he would serve a mandatory life sentence. The only involvement the cops had was investigating and picking him up after the prosecutor issued the indictment.

 

Teaching the public how to handle a police encounter would probably save more lives than additional police training, but no one wants to talk about that either. It's extremely rare for a cop to kill someone out of any motive other than fear. If you know how to handle the situation you significantly reduce the already low risk of becoming a statistic. Bit that's skating dangerously close to "victim blaming."

 

There are police tactics I don't care for, particularly wrt seeking out arrests where it isn't necessary, but that doesn't get talked about either. That's more an issue of pressures placed on officers to make arrests than with [most of] the officers themselves. It's also fueled by budgetary concerns, so no politician will touch it.

 

People aren't interested in putting forth the effort required to really understand the issues and come up with solutions. It's easier to rage about things they don't understand and feel good about themselves for it.