SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 2 hours ago, GregPersons said: Black Americans are criminalized, period. Greg? That’s actually an interesting point: Blacks are ‘criminalized’? How exactly? Is it your position that having lots of police around somehow increases crime? Or is it your position that the legislature has written laws that make certain crimes more apt to be committed by black people?
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Greg? That’s actually an interesting point: Blacks are ‘criminalized’? How exactly? Is it your position that having lots of police around somehow increases crime? Or is it your position that the legislature has written laws that make certain crimes more apt to be committed by black people? Yes to both questions. Both are true. "The War on Drugs" is exhibit A, and the fact that marijuana is now legal, but there are still hundreds or thousands, a horrifying amount of Black/POC Americans still imprisoned, even in states where it's legal, and the group profiting from the legalization is White people. "Stop and Frisk" would be exhibit B. There is money made on maintaining levels of criminality, in all kinds of ways. Are you aware of For-Profit Prisons? Edited June 10, 2020 by GregPersons
SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Yes to both questions. Both are true. "The War on Drugs" is exhibit A, and the fact that marijuana is now legal, but there are still hundreds or thousands, a horrifying amount of Black/POC Americans still imprisoned, even in states where it's legal, and the group profiting from the legalization is White people. "Stop and Frisk" would be exhibit B. There is money made on maintaining levels of criminality, in all kinds of ways. Are you aware of For-Profit Prisons? Good examples Greg. So your real problem is actually with the legislature, not the police. Lawmakers make laws. The police are like robots. They go where they’re told to go, and answer the phone when it rings. So wouldn’t you think it would serve the black community to stop voting for the same lawmakers every two, four or six years that have inflicted upon them the same results you’re now standing in the streets to loot and rail against?
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 Just now, SoCal Deek said: Good examples Greg. So your real problem is actually with the legislature, not the police. Lawmakers make laws. The police are like robots. They go where they’re told to go, and answer the phone when it rings. So wouldn’t you think it would serve the black community to stop voting for the same lawmakers every two, four or six years that have inflicted upon them the same results you’re now standing in the streets to loot and rail against? Pretending the law as written is the only problem is ignoring reality. Police are not like robots. Police are human beings. You're not going to waste both of our time suggesting the problem is just "a few bad apples," right Deek? I am against looting! Are you? If you're concerned about looting, are you aware of Civil Asset Forfeiture?
BuffaloHokie13 Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Yes to both questions. Both are true. "The War on Drugs" is exhibit A, and the fact that marijuana is now legal, but there are still hundreds or thousands, a horrifying amount of Black/POC Americans still imprisoned, even in states where it's legal, and the group profiting from the legalization is White people. "Stop and Frisk" would be exhibit B. There is money made on maintaining levels of criminality, in all kinds of ways. Are you aware of For-Profit Prisons? I don't think that the conclusion of more cops causes more crime is correct, but on exhibit A we generally agree from a couple angles. Sentencing disparity for crack vs powder cocaine shouldn't really exist. And if I get a ticket for going 65 in a 55, and on my way to court the road is now 65 the ticket should be dropped. On exhibit b, absolutely. Bloomberg is a racist and he admitted as much when discussing stop and frisk. F that guy.
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: I don't think that the conclusion of more cops causes more crime is correct, but on exhibit A we generally agree from a couple angles. Sentencing disparity for crack vs powder cocaine shouldn't really exist. And if I get a ticket for going 65 in a 55, and on my way to court the road is now 65 the ticket should be dropped. On exhibit b, absolutely. Bloomberg is a racist and he admitted as much when discussing stop and frisk. F that guy. When you have more cops, they need to justify their jobs. They need to justify the salary increases. They need to justify the budget increases. More crime results. And Stop and Frisk is the perfect example. Cops will find crime. It's what they do. But a lot of what has been considered "criminal" in effect is just "being black in public." Which is just the modern continuation of Jim Crow. It's all in a continuum. This never actually ended, it's just changed shape and taken different forms. Also, agreed on ***** Bloomberg but I don't know if I'm giving him credit that he admitted it was racist. Maybe he did. My recollection off-hand was that it was a mealy-mouthed apology with a lot of passive language and dodging any actual responsibility and didn't offer any corrective actions. I could be misremembering his statements on it. Edited June 10, 2020 by GregPersons
SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 17 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Pretending the law as written is the only problem is ignoring reality. Police are not like robots. Police are human beings. You're not going to waste both of our time suggesting the problem is just "a few bad apples," right Deek? I am against looting! Are you? If you're concerned about looting, are you aware of Civil Asset Forfeiture? We were getting somewhere and then here we go again. You apparently skipped right over the part about lawmakers. You didn’t want to go there? It’s just easier to blame the police you can see, than the lawmakers who sit laughing at you from their security guarded offices?
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: We were getting somewhere and then here we go again. You apparently skipped right over the part about lawmakers. You didn’t want to go there? It’s just easier to blame the police you can see, than the lawmakers who sit laughing at you from their security guarded offices? What did I skip? We have at least some agreement that laws are and have been racist. What else should we talk about? Which laws are more racist? I gave you some pretty good examples. What are you supplying this conversation? It seems like the easy opinion here is that the police have no culpability in this. You told me police are like robots. That's where we're at with it. Edited June 10, 2020 by GregPersons
SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, GregPersons said: What did I skip? We have at least some agreement that laws are and have been racist. What else should we talk about? Which laws are more racist? I gave you some pretty good examples. What are you supplying this conversation? It seems like the easy opinion here is that the police have no culpability in this. You told me police are like robots. That's where we're at with it. The police do not write the laws. They are in fact supposed to be like robots. Simply responding when called. I have just as much of a problem with the lenient officers as the overly strict ones but it’s clearly a tough gig. I’m guessing you’ve never been a police officer, and neither have I, but it looks like really tough job to me. Are there officers that don’t do their job very well? Yep! But the same can be said for teachers...and nobody is protesting to ‘Defund Education’. 1
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: The police do not write the laws. They are in fact supposed to be like robots. Simply responding when called. I have just as much of a problem with the lenient officers as the overly strict ones but it’s clearly a tough gig. I’m guessing you’ve never been a police officer, and neither have I, but it looks like really tough job to me. Are there officers that don’t do their job very well? Yep! But the same can be said for teachers...and nobody is protesting to ‘Defund Education’. "Supposed to" is not the world, though. Actually, there are people protesting to "defund education" — Republican lawmakers. They just don't call it that. They call it "tax cuts." What if we tried swapping Police and Education budgets? Imagine!
SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, GregPersons said: "Supposed to" is not the world, though. Actually, there are people protesting to "defund education" — Republican lawmakers. They just don't call it that. They call it "tax cuts." What if we tried swapping Police and Education budgets? Imagine! Education is a state, not federal budget issue. And Police are a local, not State budget issue. The swapping you’re dreaming about isn’t really possible.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 32 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Also, agreed on ***** Bloomberg but I don't know if I'm giving him credit that he admitted it was racist. Maybe he did. My recollection off-hand was that it was a mealy-mouthed apology with a lot of passive language and dodging any actual responsibility and didn't offer any corrective actions. I could be misremembering his statements on it. The below leaked audio is what I'm referring to. Seriously, F that guy. https://twitter.com/BenjaminPDixon/status/1227067093692055553?s=19
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Education is a state, not federal budget issue. And Police are a local, not State budget issue. The swapping you’re dreaming about isn’t really possible. I was referring to local/city budgets specifically, where it is very much possible. Also — let's not bother with getting into the weeds here, because there's no accepting "nothing can be done" as the answer. 2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: The below leaked audio is what I'm referring to. Seriously, F that guy. Ohhhh yeah, this. But yeah, again, can't be said enough. Bloomberg can bite my butt. Edited June 10, 2020 by GregPersons
SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, GregPersons said: I was referring to local/city budgets specifically, where it is very much possible. Also — let's not bother with getting into the weeds here, because there's no accepting "nothing can be done" as the answer. I didn’t say nothing can be done. My point is that many don’t understand how their tax dollars are collected and spent. The lines have been blurred so much that citizens don’t understand where and to who they should address their grievances. Screaming at the federal government to change local policing is like yelling at the TV hoping the Bills Coaches will hear you (I know because I’ve tried.)
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I didn’t say nothing can be done. My point is that many don’t understand how their tax dollars are collected and spent. The lines have been blurred so much that citizens don’t understand where and to who they should address their grievances. Screaming at the federal government to change local policing is like yelling at the TV hoping the Bills Coaches will hear you (I know because I’ve tried.) Yes, I agree. That's why I have consistently rejected people's claims this is a Trump issue, or a Democrat or Republican issue. This is much wider, deeper, and bigger than that. It is not one bad city, or one bad state, or one bad administration. It is a rotten foundation. This is why the calls are to "Defund." It is more productive if the conversation starts from a blank slate, and builds up from there, rather than taking what is and taking things out piece meal. It is everybody's issue because it is all of our tax dollars. We may not live in the same city (or we might depending where in SoCal) but the point is that we all have over-funded police, and under-funded education, and all that equation is doing is maintaining the "school to prison" pipeline. Edited June 10, 2020 by GregPersons
SoCal Deek Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, GregPersons said: Yes, I agree. That's why I have consistently rejected people's claims this is a Trump issue, or a Democrat or Republican issue. This is much wider, deeper, and bigger than that. It is not one bad city, or one bad state, or one bad administration. It is a rotten foundation. This is why the calls are to "Defund." It is more productive if the conversation starts from a blank slate, and builds up from there, rather than taking what is and taking things out piece meal. It is everybody's issue because it is all of our tax dollars. We may not live in the same city (or we might depending where in SoCal) but the point is that we all have over-funded police, and under-funded education, and all that equation is doing is maintaining the "school to prison" pipeline. Inland Empire 1
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Inland Empire Then you know what I'm talking about exactly.
Buffalo_Gal Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 Nadler is up on committee making sure that people know police are horrible and wonderful. He's actually doing a semi-decent job of walking the line. If anyone wants to watch, tune into c-span.org.Justice and policing act. The bill would ban choke holds, no qualified immunity for law enforcement, new community program to "re-imagine policing." George Floyd's brother is going to testify, too. 1 1
GregPersons Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 What a great way for Democrats to show they aren't listening, and still aren't getting it. He's so close with addressing the problem. The solution is stupid as *****.
Buffalo_Gal Posted June 10, 2020 Posted June 10, 2020 Karen Bass (CA) - No-knock drug warrants will be banned. 1
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