Buffalo PD assault older gentleman, leave him to bleed

[The Dean]

Just now, BillsVet said:

 

Context is king with this situation.  We do not have enough information to confirm/deny many of the news.  

 

But I can say, an Emergency Response Team does not have the responsibility of de-escalating.  They're a specialized unit to handle high risk situations, hence their gear. 

 

 

Anyone with military/police experience understands communications are critical to responsiveness and mission completion. Knowing what your fellow soldier/officer/other friendly units are doing is key in high-risk situations.  I know this is hard to believe, but protestors/rioters are a very coordinated movement and the first thing any organized group wants to do is inhibit communications.  There is no reason to have a cell phone out in front of an ERT team other than to take a video or attempt to impede the police's communications.  And the former is unlikely given that he's not even trying to take a picture.  

 

Either way, he was not a peace activist as has been suggested.  Peace activists do not approach ERT teams clad in that gear with their arms out.  Not safe, unless of course you're looking for a reaction.    

 

It is also convenient that, due to HIPAA regulations, we will never know what hospital staff encountered when he arrived.  I have seen an image of him sitting up and talking on his phone before placement into the ambulance.  With a major head wound, I would expect EMT personnel to rush him to the nearest hospital.  I'll ask a question unlikely to receive an answer: Why?    

 

Something is amiss with this situation and we may never know the full story.  

 

 

OK. Just one more

 

Defend their lying on the official report.  And also their inaction once they saw he was actually injured. Mayor Brown said the orders were to protect those on the scene, use common sense, etc. I can't currently find the link. I'll try again when I have the time. But, let me be clear, as Brown is a politician, he could be lying too. I understand that.

 

Not that you probably care, but and ex BPD commissioner refers to the police action as "assault". 

 

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/14/former-bpd-commissioner-kerlikowske-saw-the-video-he-calls-it-assault/

 

So to other police chiefs and commissioners from what I've read and seen. Yes, everyone has an opinion. But I've seen nobody sensibly defend the LIES they told on their reports, or their total callousness toward a bleeding old man.

 

 

[BillsVet]

12 minutes ago, The Dean said:

OK. Just one more

 

Defend their lying on the official report.  And also their inaction once they saw he was actually injured. Mayor Brown said the orders were to protect those on the scene, use common sense, etc. I can't currently find the link. I'll try again when I have the time. But, let me be clear, as Brown is a politician, he could be lying too. I understand that.

 

Not that you probably care, but and ex BPD commissioner refers to the police action as "assault". 

 

https://buffalonews.com/2020/06/14/former-bpd-commissioner-kerlikowske-saw-the-video-he-calls-it-assault/

 

So to other police chiefs and commissioners from what I've read and seen. Yes, everyone has an opinion. But I've seen nobody sensibly defend the LIES they told on their reports, or their total callousness toward a bleeding old man.

 

I will answer your questions when you begin answering mine.  Until then, there's nothing left to discuss. 

[The Dean]

17 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I will answer your questions when you begin answering mine.  Until then, there's nothing left to discuss. 

 

As I have previously addressed all of them, I believe, I'll leave you to defending officers to filed a false report and left an old man to bleed on the street with zero compassion. 

[Warcodered]

25 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I will answer your questions when you begin answering mine.  Until then, there's nothing left to discuss. 

I mean what question? Why he used his phone before being taken to the hospital?

I mean maybe he was calling an emergency contact, I don't know fact is he was admitted to the ICU do they give those beds out to people who don't need them?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Warcodered said:

I mean what question? Why he used his phone before being taken to the hospital?

I mean maybe he was calling an emergency contact, I don't know fact is he was admitted to the ICU do they give those beds out to people who don't need them?

 

I have not seen this photo of him using his phone before being taken to hospital

I would like to, anyone got a link?

 

When I had my own TBI, caused by an auto accident, I (am told by my family I) was awake and able to answer questions by the time the EMTs fitted me with a neck brace and I helped climb out of the car on my own.  But I couldn't remember things I was just told (and I don't remember any of that).  My kid rode in the ambulance to the ER with me.  I kept asking "where am I?" and "where's (kid's name)?" and "where's spouse?".  Three minutes later I would ask the same questions, be told the same answers and not remember.  The paramedics told kid that was perfectly normal and it was actually positive that I was able to speak even if I wasn't making sense.

The next clear memory I have is about 2 hrs and 30 minutes after the accident when I woke up in the ER to a debate between kid and spouse and intern MD who somehow had gotten the idea that the accident wasn't severe because "the windows didn't break".  They showed him photos of the car (totalled, broken glass).  I remember reaching up and asking "why do I have glass in my hair if the windows didn't break?"  That's the next thing I remember after getting into the car in our driveway.  2 1/2 hrs are missing.  The attending physician came over and said "I think we're going to get an MRI on you and keep you in the neuro unit overnight".  I had a subdural bleed, but no skull fracture.

 

My point is, I could easily believe someone with a concussion, even a skull fracture, might be able to sit up and make a phone call.  I didn't make a phone call, but I did assist in climbing out of a totaled car and stepping into an ambulance on my own, and I spoke and asked questions on the way to the hospital. 

 

I don't remember a bit of it and it didn't mean I didn't have a legit brain injury.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Hapless Bills Fan
clarify what I meant

[Bill from NYC]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

IMO, it illustrates a gap, a significant gap, between the way professional LEOs see a number of recent events, and the way the general public sees them.  I see "an unarmed member of the general public should be able to walk up to a police officer and not wind up with a busted skull", just as I see "if a police officer wants to stop an unarmed teen for jaywalking, that should not result in the teen's death" and "being accused of passing a counterfeit bill should not result in death"

 

Once again, you are putting pushing someone and a scumbag kneeling on a man's neck for 8 minutes in the same class.They simply are not, but this won't stop activists or the media from linking the two.

Do you understand that these officers are in an emergency response squad? They are trained in specific ways for specific purposes. Maybe an added drill should be implemented in which an elderly, babbling, weirdo with probable dementia approaches them carrying a phone and a helmet. I can think of at least 1 prominent person who would fit that description. Maybe they can use dozens of them, and every time the officers are approached like this, at least 1 can break ranks and process the person.

Soon the police ranks would be thinned, but the good news is that there would be almost no risk of injuries to above described persons. It would also be good news for curfew breakers, or even rioters.

I assume that liberal democrat politicians control Buffalo. Well, THEY called for the curfew and for it to be enforced, one would think to protect life and property from rioters.  The goal is to do so by voluntary compliance when at all possible, and with a minimum amount of force when necessary. The man was shoved and almost regained his footing before falling.

I respect your medical background and I think it causes you to look at things through a different eye but again; a shove causing someone to fall after charging into oncoming riot police with objects in his hands isn't the end of the world. 

It really is not.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[BillsVet]

9 hours ago, The Dean said:

As I have previously addressed all of them, I believe, I'll leave you to defending officers to filed a false report and left an old man to bleed on the street with zero compassion. 

 

Whenever in doubt, deflect and use red herrings to avoid answering questions that undermine your argument.  Got it. 

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Warcodered]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Once again, you are putting pushing someone and a scumbag kneeling on a man's neck for 8 minutes in the same class.They simply are not, but this won't stop activists or the media from linking the two.

Do you understand that these officers are in an emergency response squad? They are trained in specific ways for specific purposes. Maybe an added drill should be implemented in which an elderly, babbling, weirdo with probable dementia approaches them carrying a phone and a helmet. I can think of at least 1 prominent person who would fit that description. Maybe they can use dozens of them, and every time the officers are approached like this, at least 1 can break ranks and process the person.

Soon the police ranks would be thinned, but the good news is that there would be almost no risk of injuries to above described persons. It would also be good news for curfew breakers, or even rioters.

I assume that liberal democrat politicians control Buffalo. Well, THEY called for the curfew and for it to be enforced, one would think to protect life and property from rioters.  The goal is to do so by voluntary compliance when at all possible, and with a minimum amount of force when necessary. The man was shoved and almost regained his footing before falling.

I respect your medical background and I think it causes you to look at things through a different eye but again; a shove causing someone to fall after charging into oncoming riot police with objects in his hands isn't the end of the world. 

It really is not.

Right or maybe the protesters will gather a bunch of strollers together to push towards the police can't just knock those aside might be babies. Or maybe some other increasingly ridiculous ***** tactics. Or maybe we could expect these officers to find a way to not injure an individual elderly man who is the only person in the nearby vicinity approaching them.

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Whenever in doubt, deflect and use red herrings to avoid answering questions that undermine your argument.  Got it. 

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Once again, you are putting pushing someone and a scumbag kneeling on a man's neck for 8 minutes in the same class.They simply are not, but this won't stop activists or the media from linking the two.

 

I'm not putting them in the same class, but I do see them as part of the same continuum: a continuum where a citizen, the group the police force exists to "protect and serve" gets described as *quoting you exactly* " elderly, babbling, weirdo with probable dementia" *endquote* in what appears to be an attempt to denigrate them and remove them from group "upright citizens who deserve police protection and no undue use of force"

 

And you know what?  It worked on me for lot of years.  I bought it.  But now I see it as symptomatic of a widespread problem where police officers are systematically taught to perceive citizens as "other"in the same way soldiers are taught to demonize and denigrate their enemy (because it's harder to kill or mistreat people you see as just like you, human beings) and to justify crappy treatment of people dealt out in their sight by one of their own as "I don't know all the details, probably he had it coming".

 

Bill, I'm sorry, but every time you disparage and insult this guy, IMO as a former police officer it's like a red flag popping up saying "here is the problem".  Maybe he's an elderly weirdo with probable dementia.  Does that mean he deserves a skull fracture?  But maybe he's not a "weirdo", maybe he's sharp as a tack and devoutly committed to a set of beliefs that include the belief that protests should be exempt from curfews because they are protected by the First Amendment.    (Also, we need to make up our minds - is he a babbling demented weirdo or a techie genius who somehow can manage to do something my techie friends tell me is freakin' not possible because cell phones are simply not designed to receive or transmit those frequencies, jam police radio and implement tracking of police by waving his cell phone in front of an officer?)

Please ask yourself what purpose is served by continuing to paint this elderly man, a cancer survivor, in denigrating terms?  You've been doing it from the start.  What purpose does it serve, if not, as a former police officer, to paint him in your mind as "other", not an upright citizen and not deserving of police protection and no undue force?

 

Quote

I assume that liberal democrat politicians control Buffalo. Well, THEY called for the curfew and for it to be enforced, one would think to protect life and property from rioters.  The goal is to do so by voluntary compliance when at all possible, and with a minimum amount of force when necessary. The man was shoved and almost regained his footing before falling.

 

This, on the other hand, is IMO an extremely valid point that appears to be being missed by a lot of the people calling for "defund the police".  @LeviF91 alluded to it also.  Many of the policies that lead to policing that is now being objected to are, unambiguously, policies being set for the police department by politicians or city managers.  You have a valid point that the police do not have the power to impose the curfew, that was done by politicians.  On the other hand, at least around here, the politicians are usually responding to input from the police on what tactics are required to keep the peace and prevent looting, so it's not always a one-way street.

 

I don't know how things work back east, but in MO we have a buttload of small towns with no tax base - low property values = low property tax, few or no retail businesses = no sales tax.  These towns make their money and fund their police by citations - traffic citations, pedestrian citations, property citations.  If the cited person misses their court date, a bench warrant is issued and it becomes a criminal matter.  If they're jailed, they're assessed room and board.  Missouri passed a law some years back limiting city funding to less than 50% of the budget from traffic tickets and citations.  That means 1) they're still collecting up to 50% 2) many of them make up the shortfall with pedestrian and property citations. 

 

So I see that the problem goes well beyond the police - it's not like the police wake up one morning and say "hey, I think I'll go arrest some homeless ladies for picking aluminum cans out of the dumpsters" or "hey I think I'll go out looking for sagging teens I can cite, thereby making myself loathed and disrespected in the community I serve", No, it's the politicians who push that course of action and that's an underlying motivation that must be addressed.

 

Quote

I respect your medical background and I think it causes you to look at things through a different eye but again; a shove causing someone to fall after charging into oncoming riot police with objects in his hands isn't the end of the world. 

It really is not.

 

No one is saying it's the end of the world, but some of us are saying that it's symptomatic of a system enabling or encouraging police to use more force than is needed. 

Logically: If the police don't have strategy supported by a tactical system robust enough to allow them to secure and detain one individual who approaches them, how are they going to secure and detain when they reach a part of the square where maybe there are dozens or 100s of individuals breaking curfew?  Maybe that's not the plan.  Maybe the plan is to bust some chops and lay into people with batons and boots.  Maybe this is going to be the order of the day: "“It’s gonna be a lot of fun beating the hell out of these s---heads once the sun goes down and nobody can tell us apart!!!!”.  (Exact quote from StL PD officer Dustin Boone text message)..... before Boone, 35, and two other officers, Randy Hays, 31, and Christopher Myers, 27, threw a man to the ground and viciously kicked him and beat him with a riot baton, even though he was complying with their instructions.

Ask their brother StL PD detective, undercover officer Luther Hall, the recipient of the beating, how much fun it was.

 

Another case of a few bad apples, no doubt.

[GaryPinC]

 

Gave myself some time away from this situation and took a fresh look at the incident from the synced double video.  It is clear the only immediate protesters were Gugino, and some guy just beyond him with a "black lives matter sign."  After shoving Gugino, they pulled the BLM guy behind the line and appeared to arrest him, why did they not just do that to Gugino?  Why would they just not pull him behind the line and arrest him? 

 

It's unprofessional, how they conducted themselves with Gugino, especially as both camera angles showed no other protesters in immediate proximity.

 

If it's true police Emergency Response Teams are not trained in de-escalating a situation, well that's one huge training change that should happen.

[Bad Things]

1 hour ago, GaryPinC said:

... why did they not just do that to Gugino?  Why would they just not pull him behind the line and arrest him? 

 

It's unprofessional, how they conducted themselves with Gugino, especially as both camera angles showed no other protesters in immediate proximity.

 

If it's true police Emergency Response Teams are not trained in de-escalating a situation, well that's one huge training change that should happen.

Why didn't they just arrest him like anyone else??

 

<sarcasm on>

Well, according to some posters, they had to be physical with him because he was using his phone just like how Dr McCoy used his scanner on Star Trek!  That's why!

<sarcasm off>

[LABILLBACKER]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:53 PM, The Dean said:

 

As I have previously addressed all of them, I believe, I'll leave you to defending officers to filed a false report and left an old man to bleed on the street with zero compassion. 

Buffalo PD sure is making headlines and not in a good way....https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1231016

[John from Riverside]

What was sad to me is you visibly see one of the officers impluse that the old man was hurt and bent to find out if he was ok.....and another officer give him a nudge to keep him moving.

 

There was NO immediate threat past them on the street and the video shows that.....why not let the officer render first aid and AVOID THIS SITUATION

 

Then.....the divider in the oval office makes the antifa comment and the wheels come off the wagon......again

[GaryPinC]

18 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Buffalo PD sure is making headlines and not in a good way....https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1231016

Officer Horne stopped Kwiatkowski from continuing a chokehold she felt was endangering the suspect.  

 

Kwiatkowski, the officer that Horne stopped in 2006, was arrested and sentenced to four months in prison for use of excessive force against four Black teenagers 10 years after Horne was fired.

The teenagers were accused of shooting BB guns while driving around their neighborhood, but they were compliant with the arresting officers when Kwaitkowski appeared at the scene. He admitted to “forcibly pushing each of the suspects heads and upper torsos into the vehicle around which they were being detained,” according to the Department of Justice.

 

This is the garbage that needs to be eliminated.  She stopped him once but he didn't change.  Was there any procedures within the system to compel him to change his behavior?

[Bermuda Triangle]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/18/us/gop-sheriff-arizona-covid-19-trnd/index.html