The Dean Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: Do you concur that he was waving his phone toward the police in a fashion similar to the way Dr. McCoy waved his magic medical device on Star Trek? What might be the purpose of this. To me, it seems like is trying to get the officers to look at something on his phone. I can't say for sure, but that's what it looks like to me.
JohnC Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I would like to see credible information to the effect that a cell phone on its own can somehow harvest information or jam police radios, period - or how somehow waving it near a radio would enable this? I keep reading the same claim, but nowhere do I read anyone sourcing or backing up these claims. I can download a police scanner app on my iphone or android - but I don't need to wave my phone around near police in order to enable this. I just have to open the app. People can purchase frequency blocking and jamming equipment that is illegal to own, but nonetheless available for a couple hundred bucks- but again, it doesn't look like an iphone, and it doesn't need to be waved near police radios to work or to work better. To block frequencies, one tried and true method is to broadcast on the same frequency at higher power - something a cell phone is NOT designed to do. Not to mention the issue pictured was swinging a helmet against another player's bare head. The officers in question were wearing helmets of their own and face shields. This conspiracy theory about the 75 yr old man came from a right wing lunatic source that the president amplified in order to distract and confuse the issue. Those individuals like some of the posters here who are promoting or considering this Martian like theory are nuttier than a fruitcake. You are wasting your time trying to have a coherent discussion with people who are zany enough to spout such weird stuff. People have different perspectives on the Buffalo demonstration incident. I can understand and respect the conflicting opinions on this matter. For those who are fixated on the phone and its ability to sabotage the police communication system they fall in the category of the lunatic fringe who are not worth responding to. You can't rationalize with the irrational. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/501784-trump-claims-75-year-old-man-shoved-by-buffalo-police-could-be-part
4merper4mer Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, JohnC said: This conspiracy theory about the 75 yr old man came from a right wing lunatic source that the president amplified in order to distract and confuse the issue. Those individuals like some of the posters here who are promoting or considering this Martian like theory are nuttier than a fruitcake. You are wasting your time trying to have a coherent discussion with people who are zany enough to spout such weird stuff. People have different perspectives on the Buffalo demonstration incident. I can understand and respect the conflicting opinions on this matter. For those who are fixated on the phone and its ability to sabotage the police communication system they fall in the category of the lunatic fringe who are not worth responding to. You can't rationalize with the irrational. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/501784-trump-claims-75-year-old-man-shoved-by-buffalo-police-could-be-part FYI to all John is butt hurt because I don't love Jason Botterill. 24 minutes ago, The Dean said: To me, it seems like is trying to get the officers to look at something on his phone. I can't say for sure, but that's what it looks like to me. On the first officer I can see that but it looked more like shoulder than face. On the second officer he was waving it around by the guys hip.
The Dean Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said: On the first officer I can see that but it looked more like shoulder than face. On the second officer he was waving it around by the guys hip. Again, it appears to me he MIGHT be trying to get the first officer to take a look at something on the phone. Then it appears he is just gesticulating with his hands* and the phone is in his hand. But sometimes people's hand motions don't always look to be coordinated with what they are saying. Particularly older people. I mean I've seen some pretty bizarre gestures from Biden and Trump. * The man's last name is Gugino, which might mean he is of Italian descent. So that wouldn't be too unusual to use a lot of hand movement when talking (I'm looking at me here!). So let's see, I've managed to invoke an Italian stereotype and insult older people. Maybe I'll stop here. 1
Warcodered Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 16 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: FYI to all John is butt hurt because I don't love Jason Botterill. On the first officer I can see that but it looked more like shoulder than face. On the second officer he was waving it around by the guys hip. What does it matter, even if this conspiracy was true they still shouldn't of pushed him, are they not capable of detaining a 75 year old man? 1 1
4merper4mer Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, The Dean said: So let's see, I've managed to invoke an Italian stereotype and insult older people. Maybe I'll stop here. I heard his mom is Jewish and when he woke up he said Oy Vey never have I had such a splitting headache. I'm not saying I KNOW he was doing something with his phone but I saw enough where it easy to believe the police could be suspicious. 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: What does it matter, even if this conspiracy was true they still shouldn't of pushed him, are they not capable of detaining a 75 year old man? Stop it. If they turned him around and cuffed him people would be whining they should have just moved him out of the way.
Warcodered Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: I heard his mom is Jewish and when he woke up he said Oy Vey never have I had such a splitting headache. I'm not saying I KNOW he was doing something with his phone but I saw enough where it easy to believe the police could be suspicious. Stop it. If they turned him around and cuffed him people would be whining they should have just moved him out of the way. Yeah I'd take people whining about them detaining him, which is essentially moving him out of the way, over them giving him a head injury.
Bill from NYC Posted June 14, 2020 Posted June 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm glad to hear that latter, but I would like to hear a direct answer to my question: "Let's stipulate an unarmed citizen carrying a cell phone and a helmet that are both his property approaches police at a walk and apparently says something to them. Are the police justified in shoving him with enough force that he falls over? Yes or no? Just answer please. I know and respect the fact that you are a mod. Not only that, I think you do a great job. That said, I don't think it is appropriate to ask me for a specific type of answer to a question that requires some explanation. It would seem to be a trap of sorts, no? He appeared to be touching riot police who were ordered and trained to walk/march in a specific fashion. This person who at least appears to be emotionally disturbed (and I am being kind) confronts them. They didn't split he head open with batons. They didn't punch him out. They shoved him out of the way and he, after several steps, fell. Hey, that sucks but you know, we are in the midst of a pandemic. Again, I remember you bringing covid19 up and commenting about it perhaps hundreds of times. Oh, and making sense btw. Just approaching them and violating distance mandates is both dangerous and illegal, no? Police officers are human. These particular officers were trained to complete a mission and it appears were given orders to continue on once this pillar of society fell. Under these circumstances, do I think it was wrong to shove this person aside, to the point that he just barely fell? No, I don't have a problem with it under the circumstances. If this makes you think less of me so be it, but; I don't think that either of us should demand the other to be in agreement at all times. I also am 100% sure that there are dozens of situations/scenarios from which I could learn from you. Peace.
Bad Things Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said: Stop it. If they turned him around and cuffed him people would be whining they should have just moved him out of the way. C'mon now.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Warcodered said: What does it matter, even if this conspiracy was true they still shouldn't of pushed him, are they not capable of detaining a 75 year old man? Exactly. If you think he's doing something suspicious with his phone, detain him and sort it out. There are grounds to arrest/detain in the fact that it's after curfew and he's there in their face.
SinceThe70s Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 2 hours ago, The Dean said: To me, it seems like is trying to get the officers to look at something on his phone. I can't say for sure, but that's what it looks like to me. Could be. But towards what end? What was he trying to accomplish?
The Dean Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said: Could be. But towards what end? What was he trying to accomplish? I said I had made my last post in here a few posts ago. So I will leave it at this: I don't know what he was doing. Looks to me like an older man trying to have a conversation (and maybe waste some of the officer's time). Maybe agitating a bit, hoping to get arrested. Maybe trying to show them something. As a private citizen he is not required to have a plan to prevent being physically pushed by an officer. OTOH, an officer on duty must have a reason for their actions. It comes with the job. Unless it constituted a real physical threat to the officers, it really doesn't matter. Judging from the video i'm pretty sure he wasn't an immediate physical threat to this group of heavily armed and protected officers. So no matter what he may have been up to he shouldn't have been pushed to the ground. The officers who pushed him should not have kept walking past him as if nothing happened. And damn sure they shouldn't have lied about what happened in their report. But I'm sure some of you will find a way to excuse the lie these officers told, to avoid telling the truth about what happened. Edited June 15, 2020 by The Dean 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: I know and respect the fact that you are a mod. Not only that, I think you do a great job. That said, I don't think it is appropriate to ask me for a specific type of answer to a question that requires some explanation. It would seem to be a trap of sorts, no? He appeared to be touching riot police who were ordered and trained to walk/march in a specific fashion. This person who at least appears to be emotionally disturbed (and I am being kind) confronts them. They didn't split he head open with batons. They didn't punch him out. They shoved him out of the way and he, after several steps, fell. Hey, that sucks but you know, we are in the midst of a pandemic. Again, I remember you bringing covid19 up and commenting about it perhaps hundreds of times. Oh, and making sense btw. Just approaching them and violating distance mandates is both dangerous and illegal, no? Police officers are human. These particular officers were trained to complete a mission and it appears were given orders to continue on once this pillar of society fell. Under these circumstances, do I think it was wrong to shove this person aside, to the point that he just barely fell? No, I don't have a problem with it under the circumstances. If this makes you think less of me so be it, but; I don't think that either of us should demand the other to be in agreement at all times. I also am 100% sure that there are dozens of situations/scenarios from which I could learn from you. Peace. Honest, Bill, I'm not trying to lay some kind of a trap or blah blah. I don't roll that way. I just want to know how you feel, without all the labeling of the guy as crazy or yuckky and the "OMG pandemic and he touched them, would you want to be touched by that guy"? What I get from the above is that you feel the guy walks up to them in those circs, they're justified in pushing him with enough force that he falls over and hits his head. Thank you. That's what I've been trying to establish. My guess is, if that's how you see it, that's probably how most working LEO would see it. IMO, it illustrates a gap, a significant gap, between the way professional LEOs see a number of recent events, and the way the general public sees them. I see "an unarmed member of the general public should be able to walk up to a police officer and not wind up with a busted skull", just as I see "if a police officer wants to stop an unarmed teen for jaywalking, that should not result in the teen's death" and "being accused of passing a counterfeit bill should not result in death" I don't know how that gap gets bridged. I don't think the status quo is going to be allowed to remain at this point. I don't think citizens are going to accept "OK, we'll ban chokeholds" and "OK, we'll require other officers to intervene in the case of excessive force" as sufficient, either. Officers are already required to intervene in many cases and they do not, that "loyalty to brother and sister officers" thing. That's a big point to me - it wasn't just that Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck for 8 minutes, it's that other officers were there and either participated or failed to intervene. I grant that law officers, by nature of their work, understand that split-second observation and decision making are often the difference between whether they live or are seriously injured/die and that aspect is hard for the lay public to understand. So I think it would behoove law officers to try to understand how civilians see some of these incidents and to try to figure out a solution to bridge the gap and "drive towards zero" that's workable for them. I don't see this happening, and I think it's a shame. As far as covid-19, Bill - bringing up that I spend time here trying to make accurate covid info available is at best irrelevant, and at worst a kind of deflection. If I were still an active EMT, I could not socially distance. It would behoove ME to ensure I have adequate PPE for the job. It would not constitute license to shove around people I encounter who might touch me because I can't stand them getting in my space with the PPE I've got. Those officers aren't even wearing masks and long sleeves! I haven't heard any union grievances about the Buffalo PD failing to issue masks to their officers. It's not like they're not available in Buffalo, GM is churning through 3,000 procedure masks per day. If the officers are so freaked out about working during an epidemic that they gotta shove an old guy who gets near them hard enough he winds up with a skull fracture, maybe they should develop some "blue flu" and go out on leave - or find another line of work.
Rob's House Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 People see what they want to see. It's clear that the guy approached the cops at a time and place where he should not have. They were clearing the area out because they were ordered to do so, and rather than clearing out he walked up on them. That much is not disputable. The fact that he's a long time political activist seems to be conveniently ignored. The cop that shoved him simply pushed him back away from the line. He didn't throw him with great force or slam him to the ground. He just pushed him back, with one arm no less, the way any normal person would push anyone who was intentionally crowding their personal space under normal circumstances, much less police a very tense high pressure situation where they've ordered people to disperse. The strangest thing about the incident was that the guy splattered his head on the ground after a minor nudge. It's not a natural looking fall. Even for an old guy it's strange that he fell at all. The fact that his head hit the ground like that is utterly bizarre. People say it was staged because it looks like a flop. But for people who desperately want to see an innocent victim being brutalized by the cops, they will see misconduct even if they have to stretch reality beyond reason to do so. 1
Warcodered Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, Rob's House said: People see what they want to see. By this logic we can ignore or reverse the rest of your post. 9 minutes ago, Rob's House said: It's clear that the guy approached the cops at a time and place where he should not have. They were clearing the area out because they were ordered to do so, and rather than clearing out he walked up on them. He was walking into a line of police officers not the lion enclosure at the zoo we actually expect police officers to think and react to situations as they happen and act appropriately 10 minutes ago, Rob's House said: That much is not disputable. Who is? 10 minutes ago, Rob's House said: The fact that he's a long time political activist seems to be conveniently ignored. Probably because it's irrelevant. 15 minutes ago, Rob's House said: The cop that shoved him simply pushed him back away from the line. He didn't throw him with great force or slam him to the ground. He just pushed him back, with one arm no less, You must of missed the part where the other officer pushed him with both arms using his baton. 15 minutes ago, Rob's House said: the way any normal person would push anyone who was intentionally crowding their personal space under normal circumstances, much less police a very tense high pressure situation where they've ordered people to disperse. Actually if you watch the video the protester stopped and the police kept moving into him. Also he isn't supposed to be just your average person he's supposed to be a trained police officer. 17 minutes ago, Rob's House said: The strangest thing about the incident was that the guy splattered his head on the ground after a minor nudge. It's not a natural looking fall. Even for an old guy it's strange that he fell at all. The fact that his head hit the ground like that is utterly bizarre. People say it was staged because it looks like a flop. Looks like a guy whose feet can't keep up with being pushed back to me as well as someone trying to catch themselves as well as they can with stuff in there hands. 19 minutes ago, Rob's House said: But for people who desperately want to see an innocent victim being brutalized by the cops, they will see misconduct even if they have to stretch reality beyond reason to do so. Final verse same as the first.
Rob's House Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: By this logic we can ignore or reverse the rest of your post. He was walking into a line of police officers not the lion enclosure at the zoo we actually expect police officers to think and react to situations as they happen and act appropriately Who is? Probably because it's irrelevant. You must of missed the part where the other officer pushed him with both arms using his baton. Actually if you watch the video the protester stopped and the police kept moving into him. Also he isn't supposed to be just your average person he's supposed to be a trained police officer. Looks like a guy whose feet can't keep up with being pushed back to me as well as someone trying to catch themselves as well as they can with stuff in there hands. Final verse same as the first. Watching you twist & turn to justify your bias only reinforces my point.
Warcodered Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rob's House said: Watching you twist & turn to justify your bias only reinforces my point. 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Rob's House said: The fact that he's a long time political activist seems to be conveniently ignored. So what are you saying? If you're a long time political activist - exercising rights to peacefully assemble and to free speech that are constitutionally guaranteed - it should be open season on you to get shoved around? I'm not ignoring the fact that he's a long time political activist, I just don't believe it justifies shoving him hard enough he falls over and smacks his head Quote The cop that shoved him simply pushed him back away from the line. He didn't throw him with great force or slam him to the ground. He just pushed him back, with one arm no less, the way any normal person would push anyone who was intentionally crowding their personal space under normal circumstances Well, this is where YOU see what YOU want to see. Two officers pushed him - one with a baton, the other with a straight arm from the shoulder that he clearly stepped into. There are multiple videos and this can be clearly seen (there is a reason two officers were suspended then charged) I believe if I pushed you the same way, it would be considered an assault, and I'd better have a clear case that I was acting in self defense. (Do you normally start shoving people who get too close to you? I normally move away if possible) That's why the two officers were charged. Now me, I kind of think they've been hung out to dry because they appear to be acting under instructions from a supervisor behind them, but presumably that will come out in due time. Quote The strangest thing about the incident was that the guy splattered his head on the ground after a minor nudge. It's not a natural looking fall. Even for an old guy it's strange that he fell at all. The fact that his head hit the ground like that is utterly bizarre. People say it was staged because it looks like a flop. Again, you see what you want to see. I've seen people fall like that and smack their heads. He lost his balance because he was pushed by two people at once from different directions. It's very common when people don't know how to fall, that their heads keep going when their bodies stop and "Crack!" skull fracture. It's not "utterly bizzare" at all - if you'd worked in an ER or as an EMT you'd know that. He's still in hospital at ECMC as far as I know. He was in the ICU, listed as in "serious but stable" condition. He's since been released from the ICU but as of Friday, was still reported to be in serious condition. Can you work through this logically for a moment here? If it's "staged" and "utterly bizzare", are the doctors and nurses at ECMC in the ICU all supposed to be co-conspirators? Occum's Razor: he fell like that because he was pushed by two police officers at once (there are several videos with different angles, this isn't debatable), he hit his head like that because that's very common in an uncontrolled fall on a concrete surface, and he suffered serious head trauma that put him in ICU. Quote But for people who desperately want to see an innocent victim being brutalized by the cops, they will see misconduct even if they have to stretch reality beyond reason to do so. Irony 1
BillsVet Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 4 hours ago, The Dean said: I'll try to make this my last comment here, but one more thought occurs to me. Perhaps it has been mentioned by others, if so I missed it. Aren't officers trained to de-escalate in these kinds of situations? I thought that, unless they were in in real apparent danger, they were taught to diffuse tensions when there was limited risk. Perhaps I am mistaken on this. Maybe it isn't a universal principle of police work. Because I see no attempt to de-escalate here from any officer, before the old man was shoved (pushed/whatever). I applaud and appreciate those officers and even police chiefs who chose to communicate with the protesters on a human level. Some even knelt and marched with the crowd. I'm curious to know how much violence and looting there was when the authorities took that approach, instead of the strictly domination-centered route. Is there any data available on this? Context is king with this situation. We do not have enough information to confirm/deny many of the news. But I can say, an Emergency Response Team does not have the responsibility of de-escalating. They're a specialized unit to handle high risk situations, hence their gear. 4 hours ago, The Dean said: To me, it seems like is trying to get the officers to look at something on his phone. I can't say for sure, but that's what it looks like to me. Anyone with military/police experience understands communications are critical to responsiveness and mission completion. Knowing what your fellow soldier/officer/other friendly units are doing is key in high-risk situations. I know this is hard to believe, but protestors/rioters are a very coordinated movement and the first thing any organized group wants to do is inhibit communications. There is no reason to have a cell phone out in front of an ERT team other than to take a video or attempt to impede the police's communications. And the former is unlikely given that he's not even trying to take a picture. Either way, he was not a peace activist as has been suggested. Peace activists do not approach ERT teams clad in that gear with their arms out. Not safe, unless of course you're looking for a reaction. It is also convenient that, due to HIPAA regulations, we will never know what hospital staff encountered when he arrived. I have seen an image of him sitting up and talking on his phone before placement into the ambulance. With a major head wound, I would expect EMT personnel to rush him to the nearest hospital. I'll ask a question unlikely to receive an answer: Why? Something is amiss with this situation and we may never know the full story. 1 1
Rob's House Posted June 15, 2020 Posted June 15, 2020 18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So what are you saying? If you're a long time political activist - exercising rights to peacefully assemble and to free speech that are constitutionally guaranteed - it should be open season on you to get shoved around? I'm not ignoring the fact that he's a long time political activist, I just don't believe it justifies shoving him hard enough he falls over and smacks his head Well, this is where YOU see what YOU want to see. Two officers pushed him - one with a baton, the other with a shoulder that he clearly stepped into. There are multiple videos and this can be clearly seen (there is a reason two officers were suspended then charged) I believe if I pushed you the same way, it would be considered an assault, and I'd better have a clear case that I was acting in self defense. (Do you normally start shoving people who get too close to you? I normally move away if possible) That's why the two officers were charged. Now me, I kind of think they've been hung out to dry because they appear to be acting under instructions from a supervisor behind them, but presumably that will come out in due time. Again, you see what you want to see. I've seen people fall like that and smack their heads. He lost his balance because he was pushed by two people at once from different directions. It's very common when people don't know how to fall, that their heads keep going when their bodies stop and "Crack!" skull fracture. It's not "utterly bizzare" at all - if you'd worked in an ER or as an EMT you'd know that. He's still in hospital at ECMC as far as I know. He was in the ICU, listed as in "serious but stable" condition. He's since been released from the ICU but as of Friday, was still reported to be in serious condition. Can you work through this logically for a moment here? If it's "staged" and "utterly bizzare", are the doctors and nurses at ECMC in the ICU all supposed to be co-conspirators? Occum's Razor: he fell like that because he was pushed by two police officers at once (there are several videos with different angles, this isn't debatable), he hit his head like that because that's very common in an uncontrolled fall on a concrete surface, and he suffered serious head trauma that put him in ICU. Irony This is a bunch of horse *****. If you agree not to use your mod status as a weapon I'm happy to discuss. Otherwise I ask that you not engage me.
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