Buffalo PD assault older gentleman, leave him to bleed

[Just Jack]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

Apparently,  news reports and city officials are refuting these claims and saying that those brick deliveries are for legitimate construction projects:
 

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/bricks-were-placed-for-construction-not-to-incite-protesters/
 

The White House had removed their own videos once their claims were debunked as well:

 

https://theintercept.com/2020/06/04/white-house-forced-retract-claim-viral-videos-prove-antifa-plotting-violence/

 

 

 

 

What about the pavers we found outside our company building last week? It wasn't a whole pallet, but there were two left just off the sidewalk, under a bush, between last Thursday night and Friday morning. I had walked by that particular location several times on Thursday and they were not there. And there is no construction going currently on our block, and there is no sidewalk or patios, etc, with the pavers we found. But there was going to be a protest march on Saturday. 

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

Not at all true, source is fine.  Here is a link from the city-journal detailing the same thing:

 

https://www.city-journal.org/antifa-seattle-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone

 

 

You can't bury your head in the sand with this group.

 

 

I’m not. At all. 
 

And yet two well established local news outlets that have been in the community for many years paint an entirely different picture than the city journal. 
 

Look, it’s a fluid situation to be sure and conditions on the ground can change, so I’ll keep tuned. But I need more reputable news sources to substantiate reports. The two you cited essentially come right out and say they slant things to the right. Just look at the words they use. They don’t even bother to hide their agenda and pretend to be unbiased observers of the situation. 
 

Look, I’m not gonna get into a protracted “I link, you link” war of ideology here. It’s ridiculous. I’ll continue keep tabs on Seattle though, after that protestor was shot by the guy who drove his car into the crowd. I know Antifa didn’t do that. 
 

 

[K-9]

13 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

What about the pavers we found outside our company building last week? It wasn't a whole pallet, but there were two left just off the sidewalk, under a bush, between last Thursday night and Friday morning. I had walked by that particular location several times on Thursday and they were not there. And there is no construction going currently on our block, and there is no sidewalk or patios, etc, with the pavers we found. But there was going to be a protest march on Saturday. 

I don’t know about those pavers. Maybe protestors stole them and planted them and wanted to use them as weapons. Did you report the suspicious two bricks to the police? Were they still there after the protest? I don’t ask that facetiously. 
 

Given the fact that right wing groups have been caught setting up fake Antifa accounts on social media to cause chaos, maybe it was one of those that put those bricks there. I honestly don’t know. 

I DO know that the greatest investigative body in the world has been tasked with finding evidence that Antifa is behind the violence at some of these protests and they haven’t yet. Perhaps they will and if they do then I hope Antifa and everyone else gets what’s coming to them. 

 

In the meantime, there is no question that violence by protestors of any stripe has fallen off sharply of late. Let’s hope it continues. 

 

[Just Jack]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I don’t know about those pavers. Maybe protestors stole them and planted them and wanted to use them as weapons. Did you report the suspicious two bricks to the police? Were they still there after the protest? I don’t ask that facetiously. 

 

We got rid of them ourselves. The cops had more important things to worry about than two pavers on a city street. 

 

[GG]

7 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

The cops had more important things to worry about than two pavers on a city street. 

 

 

Paul died again?

[BornAgainBillsFan]

Does anybody know for certain what was said by Mr. Gugino to the police? If he was pleading for restraint on their part, their reaction was WAY out of line. If he was making a direct or even indirect threat, then maybe the shove was understandable, in the heat of the moment.

 

It all boils down to what was said.

[The Dean]

18 minutes ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

Does anybody know for certain what was said by Mr. Gugino to the police? If he was pleading for restraint on their part, their reaction was WAY out of line. If he was making a direct or even indirect threat, then maybe the shove was understandable, in the heat of the moment.

 

It all boils down to what was said.

 

It should not!  Words are words. There was zero eminent physical threat. Even if he said "I'm gonna kill you sucka!", he never posed a physical threat. Two officers should have easily been able to handle it, without real force, in any event.  

 

Now, with that said, why would you expect a 75 year old man, with a long record as a peaceful protester, uttered something threatening to the officers?

 

[Bill from NYC]

18 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

It should not!  Words are words. There was zero eminent physical threat. Even if he said "I'm gonna kill you sucka!", he never posed a physical threat. Two officers should have easily been able to handle it, without real force, in any event.  

 

Now, with that said, why would you expect a 75 year old man, with a long record as a peaceful protester, uttered something threatening to the officers?

 

First of all, anything is possible. He could have been carrying a concealed weapon. Was it likely? No, but he did charge into moving riot police. Have you ever done this?

 

Also Brian, it isn't a matter of expectation. I am merely saying that it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I learned from talking to you that you have lived a life of many different experiences (some perhaps out of the "ordinary" for lack of a better word) and experienced some things that were a bit unusual. My life has taught me that things I thought were barely possible sometimes did occur.

 

The above is not to say that I am glad that this person was injured, but approaching riot police actually imposing a government mandated curfew? I don't know, maybe he needs a new hobby.

 

 

[BornAgainBillsFan]

29 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

It should not!  Words are words. There was zero eminent physical threat. Even if he said "I'm gonna kill you sucka!", he never posed a physical threat. Two officers should have easily been able to handle it, without real force, in any event.  

 

Now, with that said, why would you expect a 75 year old man, with a long record as a peaceful protester, uttered something threatening to the officers?

 

 

Seriously? Peaceful protester???? Did you not see his Jun 3rd tweet provided earlier in this string?

 

 

That doesn't sound like he's all that peaceful toward the police. His twitter profile boasts that he's been arrested 4 times in the recent past, which suggests a history of incidents with the police. Which is not to say that this police force knew all that ahead of time.

 

My point is that we should have all the facts, if we're going to start making judgements about people's motives. Do your own research. Don't rely on media spin for your knowledge.

[section122]

On 6/10/2020 at 4:41 PM, Bill from NYC said:

You make a decent point about the KKK. Imo they SHOULD be a terrorist group and it should have happened from the moment they existed. I do however respectfully point out that Obama had 8 years to do this. That said, I hope that President Trump does declare them as such.

 

 

To the bolded - Obama wasn't labeling ANY GROUP a terrorist group.  Once Trump opened the gates though it becomes fair game to look around at what groups he is ignoring when making claims of domestic terrorism.

 

 

[BornAgainBillsFan]

41 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

It should not!  Words are words. There was zero eminent physical threat. Even if he said "I'm gonna kill you sucka!", he never posed a physical threat. Two officers should have easily been able to handle it, without real force, in any event.  

 

Now, with that said, why would you expect a 75 year old man, with a long record as a peaceful protester, uttered something threatening to the officers?

 

 

One more thing: the helmet he was carrying was his own. He was not trying to return a police helmet as a conscientious, law-abiding citizen would do (as the media would have you believe). He was carrying his own helmet in his hand. For what purpose? That's why his words are important. To explain his intentions.

[Bill from NYC]

25 minutes ago, section122 said:

 

To the bolded - Obama wasn't labeling ANY GROUP a terrorist group.  Once Trump opened the gates though it becomes fair game to look around at what groups he is ignoring when making claims of domestic terrorism.

 

 

OK, but does the above excuse Obama?

 

Look at the state of VA if you will. Dems (blackface wearing but still dems mind you) control both state houses and the governor's mansion. Why are those confederate monuments still standing?

 

My point is there is hypocrisy on both sides.

[4_kidd_4]

 The “but Obama” took 17 whole pages to get to???

 

Man you guys are slippin’ like an old dude gettin pushed by some cops!

[Bill from NYC]

4 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

 The “but Obama” took 17 whole pages to get to???

 

Man you guys are slippin’ like an old dude gettin pushed by some cops!

Could you go 17 minutes before insulting President Trump?

[section122]

10 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

OK, but does the above excuse Obama?

 

Look at the state of VA if you will. Dems (blackface wearing but still dems mind you) control both state houses and the governor's mansion. Why are those confederate monuments still standing?

 

My point is there is hypocrisy on both sides.

 

absolutely and you will get no argument that both sides have been divisive.  What-aboutism doesn't do anything to help solve the issues.  All it does it divide.  Wrongs can and should be pointed out without a "but look what they are doing."  As a parent we don't accept that from our kids and it is met with some version of "it doesn't matter what other people are doing/saying, it matters what you are doing/saying."  If Trump wants to start naming domestic groups as terrorist orgs, her should be prepared to name all groups that are terrorist orgs.  If he didn't name Antifa a terrorist org nobody would be asking him why he doesn't also name the kkk.  He is 3 1/2 years into his presidency and hasn't been asked that question until now.

 

The confederate monuments were still standing because there wasn't enough public support to remove them.  The majority of the people are now saying we don't want to see the confederate flag and these monuments dedicated to people with view points that are now out of date to put it nicely.  If a majority of people don't support something then it is changed.  That is America.  That is democracy at work.

[K-9]

30 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

OK, but does the above excuse Obama?

 

Look at the state of VA if you will. Dems (blackface wearing but still dems mind you) control both state houses and the governor's mansion. Why are those confederate monuments still standing?

 

My point is there is hypocrisy on both sides.

Seems the people in VA are doing it themselves. Here’s an AP article describing it. 
 

https://apnews.com/8404006d3106a82f15adea12e5c27147

[Hapless Bills Fan]

So one aspect of the controversy is the perception that the BPD put out a false statement that the man "tripped and fell" when it is clear on video that two officers simultaneously pushed him back, one with his baton held in a two handed grip, one with an extended arm (stepped into the push). 

 

I thought this article on "tunnel vision" and its impact on immediate eyewitness reports (including police officer reports) was very interesting

 

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/tunnel-vision-impacts-first-responders/

He explains how memory is affected by many things, including stress-induced "sensory exclusion" or tunnel vision.  We remember events that are impactful to us, and suppress things that (to us) are routine or unimportant.

 

He tells an anecdote about responding to a call for assistance that turned out to involve a dead woman in a recliner and a naked, unconscious man lying on the floor next to her covered in baby oil (now you're all gonna read it, amIright? ?) 

"The next day the captain asked us if we had also damaged the door inside of the apartment. He said it was no big deal if we had, but internal affairs wanted it added to the report if we did.  Both Mike and I said we hadn’t caused any damage inside, and we would have passed any lie detector test. We then were off for our three-day weekend, and reported to work on Monday. I met up with Mike and told him after the weekend that I remembered that we both kicked the door right off the hinges.  Mike said, “Yeah, I remembered it over the weekend to.” 

 

"So, we both recalled a significant detail after several days had lapsed. It just wasn’t a big deal at the time as we had kicked in numerous doors in our careers.  And, it wasn’t a paramount detail at the time. Keeping the suspect in sight was. After some time off, it came back to both of us like gangbusters. This is why police officers shouldn’t write their reports immediately following a critical incident."

 

Anyway, not trying to say police departments and LEO don't lie, because sure, they do.  Just to the point that memory is a complex thing and stress impacts immediate memory.

 

[The Dean]

11 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

First of all, anything is possible. He could have been carrying a concealed weapon. Was it likely? No, but he did charge into moving riot police. Have you ever done this?

 

Also Brian, it isn't a matter of expectation. I am merely saying that it is not beyond the realm of possibility. I learned from talking to you that you have lived a life of many different experiences (some perhaps out of the "ordinary" for lack of a better word) and experienced some things that were a bit unusual. My life has taught me that things I thought were barely possible sometimes did occur.

 

The above is not to say that I am glad that this person was injured, but approaching riot police actually imposing a government mandated curfew? I don't know, maybe he needs a new hobby.

 

 

 

 

He CHARGED? Really, CHARGED? Jesus, Bill, is there no level you won't sink to to defend police brutality? He was barely walking. Someone (I don't think it was you) said he ACCOSTED the police? Watch it again. No charge, no accosting. Slow walk and had stopped before being pushed. Notice I didn't say CLUBBED (that would be as wrong as saying CHARGED). 

 

He had a telephone in one hand (and it appear as though he was trying to get the office to look at something on the phone---just my guess, I could be wrong) and a helmet in the other. How was he going to get to a concealed weapon without dropping something in his hand? There is nothing to suggest that had any chance of happening, and if it did, there were several officers (young, healthy officers) within a foot or two of him, who could have easily stopped him.

 

Who knows, maybe he was getting ready to do a back-flip, flying drop kick. Yeah, that's probably it.

 

I just can't get over the extremes people will go to to try to invent excuses for terrible police work. 

 

11 hours ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

 

Seriously? Peaceful protester???? Did you not see his Jun 3rd tweet provided earlier in this string?

 

 

That doesn't sound like he's all that peaceful toward the police. His twitter profile boasts that he's been arrested 4 times in the recent past, which suggests a history of incidents with the police. Which is not to say that this police force knew all that ahead of time.

 

My point is that we should have all the facts, if we're going to start making judgements about people's motives. Do your own research. Don't rely on media spin for your knowledge.

 

I can't read the tweet. Not a link apparently. But unless they show ACTION (or he was seen, or admits being violent physically) I'm not sure how it is relevant to the situation. And, in fact, is it isn't specifically about something that happened during this event, it is totally irrelevant, IMO.

 

11 hours ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

 

One more thing: the helmet he was carrying was his own. He was not trying to return a police helmet as a conscientious, law-abiding citizen would do (as the media would have you believe). He was carrying his own helmet in his hand. For what purpose? That's why his words are important. To explain his intentions.

 

So, if he said, "I'm gonna hit you in the head with this here helmet, sucker", then the push was warranted?  Again, he made NO threatening move. If that officer felt threatened by this old man with a helmet and a cell phone, he probably need to find another line of work, don't you think?

 

And they continued to march past him as he was bleeding on the sidewalk. Oh, I forgot, maybe he was faking it and had a hidden weapon. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by The Dean

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, The Dean said:

I can't read the tweet. Not a link apparently. But unless they show ACTION (or he was seen, or admits being violent physically) I'm not sure how it is relevant to the situation. And, in fact, is it isn't specifically about something that happened during this event, it is totally irrelevant, IMO.

I saw the tweet before he's saying "fornicate the police" only using a different word that starts with F in response to a video of police violence. So apparently words now count in making him violent now just like George Floyd having a criminal background apparently makes suffocating him ok retroactively.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

6 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

 

He CHARGED? Really, CHARGED? Jesus, Bill, is there no level you won't sink to to defend police brutality? He was barely walking. Someone (I don't think it was you) said he ACCOSTED the police? Watch it again. No charge, no accosting. Slow walk and had stopped before being pushed. Notice I didn't say CLUBBED (that would be as wrong as saying CHARGED). 

 

He had a telephone in one hand (and it appear as though he was trying to get the office to look at something on the phone---just my guess, I could be wrong) and a helmet in the other. How was he going to get to a concealed weapon without dropping something in his hand? There is nothing to suggest that had any chance of happening, and if it did, there were several officers (young, healthy officers) within a foot or two of him, who could have easily stopped him.

 

Who knows, maybe he was getting ready to do a back-flip, flying drop kick. Yeah, that's probably it.

 

I just can't get over the extremes people will go to to try to invent excuses for terrible police work. 

 

 

I can't read the tweet. Not a link apparently. But unless they show ACTION (or he was seen, or admits being violent physically) I'm not sure how it is relevant to the situation. And, in fact, is it isn't specifically about something that happened during this event, it is totally irrelevant, IMO.

 

 

So, if he said, "I'm gonna hit you in the head with this here helmet, sucker", then the push was warranted?  Again, he made NO threatening move. If that officer felt threatened by this old man with a helmet and a cell phone, he probably need to find another line of work, don't you think?

 

And they continued to march past him as he was bleeding on the sidewalk. Oh, I forgot, maybe he was faking it and had a hidden weapon. 

I don't really appreciate your tone. "No level?" I slammed the cops in Minnesota in post after post. What should I do? Fly out there and kill them? They truly hurt a country and people will suffer. This both infuriates me and breaks my heart.

I am sorry if problems that you had over the course of your life did lead to less than pleasant interactions with police from around the country, and hope that you have turned things around now that you have advanced in age. If you make it to 75, maybe you can charge into a touch a few riot police officers during a pandemic. You will be "no threat" lol. Don't worry about social distancing, and try not to trip.