K-9 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't even take the video at face value since I can't translate what he says for myself. I think we each are responsible for how we behave in our own sphere of influence. To me the analogous to what you say would be to say "what about black on black violence in the inner city, gangs and drugs? Maybe they should clean that up before they criticize police." I don't think anyone believes those aren't problems, but I don't see why one can't criticize (or praise) police while those problems still exist either. Conflation is a powerful tool when actions can’t be defended.
Buffalo716 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't even take the video at face value since I can't translate what he says for myself. I think we each are responsible for how we behave in our own sphere of influence. To me the analogous to what you say would be to say "what about black on black violence in the inner city, gangs and drugs? Maybe they should clean that up before they criticize police." I don't think anyone believes those aren't problems, but I don't see why one can't criticize (or praise) police while those problems still exist either. That's true. But it's not like those things I mentioned are little problems. And nobody seems to want to tackle those issues 1 minute ago, K-9 said: Conflation is a powerful tool when actions can’t be defended. Who's defending any negative actions here?
K-9 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: That's true. But it's not like those things I mentioned are little problems. And nobody seems to want to tackle those issues Who's defending any negative actions here? Nobody in particular. It’s a general commentary on the use of conflation, that’s all.
Buffalo716 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 Just now, K-9 said: Nobody in particular. It’s a general commentary on the use of conflation, that’s all. ?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 18 hours ago, Bangarang said: Here’s my beef, people seem to care much more about black lives when they are taken by white cops. Everyone knows who George Floyd is, do these same people know who someone like David Dorn is? People get outraged when a white cop kills a black man but stay silent and don’t shed a tear at all the black on black death and violence happening around them on a daily basis. Does anyone want to be outraged at the 90 shootings and 30 deaths that occurred in Chicago last weekend? Do those black lives not matter as much? You want people to believe your message and invoke real change? Be consistent about it and don’t cherry pick who matters. Wow, I didn't see this before I made my previous point. To me, the special problem posed when excessive force is used by police, is because the police have broad immunity from consequences, especially when the sequence of events is narrowed down to the point in time just around when (say) a fatal shooting occurs. Like Spiderman's Uncle Ben says, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and on the "Great Responsibility" thing, the police aren't getting a passing grade many places. If a black civilian kills another black person, they will face consequences if they are caught by the law. They will be arrested, charged, tried, convicted. But if someone's property is destroyed or they are killed during a police action or even subject to unreasonable force, even if it doesn't pass the "reasonable man" test (Breonna Taylor) for something that should happen in a country where we're protected from "reasonable searches and seizures" and where we are supposed to be afforded the due process of law, over and over again, citizens see there are no consequences to the police. The police officer keeps their job. Often no one is charged. If they are charged, they are likely not convicted even in situations that seem outrageous. If they are fired or disciplined, the police union intervenes and they get reinstated with back pay. The two problems (unsolved/rampant black on black crime, lack of police accountability) seem interconnected, because when citizens don't trust police, they hesitate to call them and they hesitate to cooperate in solving crimes. What if you give police officers a tip that a guy they are looking for is living with someone you know, and plain-clothes officers handle it by breaking in unannounced with a no-knock warrant and shoot the ***** out of the place, killing them or even just totally trash the place and saturate it with tear gas, rendering it uninhabitable? The problem with killing or abuse of force at the hands of police isn't just loss of a life, it's abuse of power. That's the difference that consistent and not "cherry picking" JMO 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 edit: wow, I guess that's a way around the filter 1
Bangarang Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Wow, I didn't see this before I made my previous point. To me, the special problem posed when excessive force is used by police, is because the police have broad immunity from consequences, especially when the sequence of events is narrowed down to the point in time just around when (say) a fatal shooting occurs. Like Spiderman's Uncle Ben says, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and on the "Great Responsibility" thing, the police aren't getting a passing grade many places. If a black civilian kills another black person, they will face consequences if they are caught by the law. They will be arrested, charged, tried, convicted. But if someone's property is destroyed or they are killed during a police action or even subject to unreasonable force, even if it doesn't pass the "reasonable man" test (Breonna Taylor) for something that should happen in a country where we're protected from "reasonable searches and seizures" and where we are supposed to be afforded the due process of law, over and over again, citizens see there are no consequences to the police. The police officer keeps their job. Often no one is charged. If they are charged, they are likely not convicted even in situations that seem outrageous. If they are fired or disciplined, the police union intervenes and they get reinstated with back pay. The two problems (unsolved/rampant black on black crime, lack of police accountability) seem interconnected, because when citizens don't trust police, they hesitate to call them and they hesitate to cooperate in solving crimes. What if you give police officers a tip that a guy they are looking for is living with someone you know, and plain-clothes officers handle it by breaking in unannounced with a no-knock warrant and shoot the ***** out of the place, killing them or even just totally trash the place and saturate it with tear gas, rendering it uninhabitable? The problem with killing or abuse of force at the hands of police isn't just loss of a life, it's abuse of power. That's the difference that consistent and not "cherry picking" JMO This isn't just about police brutity, police violence or even police accountability. This is about black people and some fake narrative. 55% of the people killed by police are white and 27% are black. Cops are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black person than the other way around. BLM is such a joke of a movement and it's a shame that the people with the biggest platforms are using it to push some nonsense. People want police reform including better and more training but also want to defund the police. You can't have both. 2 2
Warcodered Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bangarang said: This isn't just about police brutity, police violence or even police accountability. This is about black people and some fake narrative. 55% of the people killed by police are white and 27% are black. Cops are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black person than the other way around. 55% killed whites 61% of the population 27% killed blacks 13% of the population 17 minutes ago, Bangarang said: People want police reform including better and more training but also want to defund the police. You can't have both. I mean that's not technically true the whole thing is way more complicated then this but off the top of my head take away the tanks, maybe have fewer officers and train the ones you have better. It's not ridiculous to think you could more effectively and efficiently organize the police.
Bangarang Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 Just now, Warcodered said: 55% killed whites 61% of the population 27% killed blacks 13% of the population 53% of all murders in the US are committed by black people or 13% of the polulation. The majority of murders in this country are committed by black men or roughly 6% of the polulation The overwhelming majority of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Make no mistake, police brutality is wrong and they need to be held accountable but black people are targeting and victimizing black peoples far more than police. Just now, Warcodered said: I mean that's not technically true the whole thing is way more complicated then this but off the top of my head take away the tanks, maybe have fewer officers and train the ones you have better. It's not ridiculous to think you could more effectively and efficiently organize the police. How many police departments have tanks and what did they cost? Less police officers means more overworked police officers which leads to stress and morale problems. How does that benefit the public again? Im all for more and better training but it takes money to do that. 2
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 36 minutes ago, Bangarang said: This isn't just about police brutity, police violence or even police accountability. This is about black people and some fake narrative. 55% of the people killed by police are white and 27% are black. Cops are 18 times more likely to be killed by a black person than the other way around. Bang, Bang, Bang - SMH. How many whites are there in this country? About 234 million? How many blacks are there? About 40 million? Let's do the math. If 55% of the people killed by police are white, and whites are 73% of the population (2017 census estimate), while 27% killed are black while blacks are 12.7% of the population, then blacks are 2.7x more likely than whites to be killed on a per-person basis. You can tell that's not phony baloney just by looking at the numbers. Roughly 6x as many whites as blacks. Roughly 2x as many whites as blacks killed. 6x/2x = 3. Close enough to 2.7x. I can't comment as to BLM as a movement - as far as I can tell it's more like a slogan loosely uniting a plethora of local groups But they got a point. Quote People want police reform including better and more training but also want to defund the police. You can't have both. I'm unclear, frankly, on just what "defund" means, and I'm not sure it sounds good to me. But, if it means cut the budget, but still leave some budget, that's not necessarily true. What if there's more money spent on training and on officer salaries, and less money spent on Bearcats and Hellcats and Tear Gas and Pepper Spray and the like? Like I said elsewhere, I was flipped out that Missouri was cutting budget for education and senior services at this time until my niece walked me through the specifics of what was being cut, then I had to admit it made sense.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Bangarang said: 53% of all murders in the US are committed by black people or 13% of the polulation. The majority of murders in this country are committed by black men or roughly 6% of the polulation The overwhelming majority of black murder victims are killed by other black people. Make no mistake, police brutality is wrong and they need to be held accountable but black people are targeting and victimizing black peoples far more than police. I agree that murders and violence in general are a big problem, but I already put together a post explaining why I felt police violence was a specific problem needing to be specifically addressed. You responded by telling us a larger percentage of people killed by police are white (but not per capita) and calling the problem "fake" and BLM "a joke". Here's my post: "To me, the special problem posed when excessive force is used by police, is because the police have broad immunity from consequences, especially when the sequence of events is narrowed down to the point in time just around when (say) a fatal shooting occurs. Like Spiderman's Uncle Ben says, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and on the "Great Responsibility" thing, the police aren't getting a passing grade many places. If a black civilian kills another black person, they will face consequences if they are caught by the law. They will be arrested, charged, tried, convicted. But if someone's property is destroyed or they are killed during a police action or even subject to unreasonable force, even if it doesn't pass the "reasonable man" test (Breonna Taylor) for something that should happen in a country where we're protected from "reasonable searches and seizures" and where we are supposed to be afforded the due process of law, over and over again, citizens see there are no consequences to the police. The police officer keeps their job. Often no one is charged. If they are charged, they are likely not convicted even in situations that seem outrageous. If they are fired or disciplined, the police union intervenes and they get reinstated with back pay. The two problems (unsolved/rampant black on black crime, lack of police accountability) seem interconnected, because when citizens don't trust police, they hesitate to call them and they hesitate to cooperate in solving crimes. What if you give police officers a tip that a guy they are looking for is living with someone you know, and plain-clothes officers handle it by breaking in unannounced with a no-knock warrant and shoot the ***** out of the place, killing them or even just totally trash the place and saturate it with tear gas, rendering it uninhabitable? The problem with killing or abuse of force at the hands of police isn't just loss of a life, it's abuse of power. That's the difference that consistent and not "cherry picking" " So which is it, are you interested to engage and discuss these points, or will you deflect again? I think the problem of police accountability for injury and death caused by unnecessary force needs to be specifically addressed, independently of violence in the Black community. For one thing, if Black people are afraid to call the police or unwilling to cooperate with them because they're afraid the information might be misused, it seems to me that the problem of violence in black communities becomes much harder to address.
Bangarang Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I agree that murders and violence in general are a big problem, but I already put together a post explaining why I felt police violence was a specific problem needing to be specifically addressed. You responded by telling us a larger percentage of people killed by police are white (but not per capita) and calling the problem "fake" and BLM "a joke". Here's my post: "To me, the special problem posed when excessive force is used by police, is because the police have broad immunity from consequences, especially when the sequence of events is narrowed down to the point in time just around when (say) a fatal shooting occurs. Like Spiderman's Uncle Ben says, "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and on the "Great Responsibility" thing, the police aren't getting a passing grade many places. If a black civilian kills another black person, they will face consequences if they are caught by the law. They will be arrested, charged, tried, convicted. But if someone's property is destroyed or they are killed during a police action or even subject to unreasonable force, even if it doesn't pass the "reasonable man" test (Breonna Taylor) for something that should happen in a country where we're protected from "reasonable searches and seizures" and where we are supposed to be afforded the due process of law, over and over again, citizens see there are no consequences to the police. The police officer keeps their job. Often no one is charged. If they are charged, they are likely not convicted even in situations that seem outrageous. If they are fired or disciplined, the police union intervenes and they get reinstated with back pay. The two problems (unsolved/rampant black on black crime, lack of police accountability) seem interconnected, because when citizens don't trust police, they hesitate to call them and they hesitate to cooperate in solving crimes. What if you give police officers a tip that a guy they are looking for is living with someone you know, and plain-clothes officers handle it by breaking in unannounced with a no-knock warrant and shoot the ***** out of the place, killing them or even just totally trash the place and saturate it with tear gas, rendering it uninhabitable? The problem with killing or abuse of force at the hands of police isn't just loss of a life, it's abuse of power. That's the difference that consistent and not "cherry picking" " So which is it, are you interested to engage and discuss these points, or will you deflect again? I think the problem of police accountability for injury and death caused by unnecessary force needs to be specifically addressed, independently of violence in the Black community. For one thing, if Black people are afraid to call the police or unwilling to cooperate with them because they're afraid the information might be misused, it seems to me that the problem of violence in black communities becomes much harder to address. I'm not deflecting. It seems you think the issue here is police brutality and accountability, and sure it's part of it. The main point of these protests though is about race. It always is when a white cop kills a black person. I've yet to see BLM protest anything that wasn't. We can put the race part aside and talk about what it seems like you think the issue is. How do we solve the accountability issue, assuming there is one? Who determines which force is excessive or unecessary?
MarkyMannn Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 15 hours ago, Just Jack said: So it’s come out he faked the bleeding... The story is that it was staged. I guess more to come on it if true.
K-9 Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, MarkyMannn said: The story is that it was staged. I guess more to come on it if true. I was assuming the pic is a joke? Please tell me there isn’t a serious attempt being made to convince people this was staged. Because it is so far fetched even for the most foil hatted conspiracy theorists would deny it. Then again, I guess the guardsman who first attended him, the EMTs who transported him to the hospital, all the doctors and nurses who treated him, including the one who diagnosed the concussion were could have been in on it the whole time. In which case I say, “Well done, sir. Well done, indeed!”
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 On 6/6/2020 at 6:51 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: TBT, that latter is pretty much where I am - not the "joke" part but that the charges are being influenced by politics and public outrage. The charges came flying out so quickly that I don't understand how there was time for a proper investigation, and I don't feel it's appropriate for Cuomo to weighing in from afar. Isn’t Cuomo the reason for the ridiculous 30mph speed limit on the 198? A tragic death of a child, but a proper barrier in the Delaware park area would have easily solved ...
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 On 6/7/2020 at 1:48 AM, Bad Things said: Where did I imply that they were violent "idiots"? I only pointed out that they were idiots. So you judge a person’s intellect based on whether they choose to legally carry a weapon? Gotcha
Bad Things Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 42 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said: So you judge a person’s intellect based on whether they choose to legally carry a weapon? Gotcha You bet! If I see someone walking around our town square with an assualt rifle in their hands, and a bandanna over their face, I think they're an idiot.
AlCowlingsTaxiService Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Bad Things said: You bet! If I see someone walking around our town square with an assualt rifle in their hands, and a bandanna over their face, I think they're an idiot. Perhaps the bandanna was in response to the mask requirement, but I guess that makes them an idiot also in your eyes ...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 On 6/7/2020 at 7:12 PM, Bangarang said: How many police departments have tanks and what did they cost? One source I found said 8,000 police departments have armored vehicles (I don't think any of them have actual tanks) but I lost the link. Will keep looking. How many police departments are there in the US? Any idea? 17 hours ago, Just Jack said: So it’s come out he faked the bleeding... I reverse-image searched with Tineye. Found a twitter link Seems legit 1 hour ago, MarkyMannn said: The story is that it was staged. I guess more to come on it if true. His head hit the concrete so loudly you could hear it in the video taken from across the square. The police on that side of the line turned to see what had happened, they heard it clearly through helmets and face shields.
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