C.Biscuit97 Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: And I'm 6'2" but I stand with Chris Morgan. https://www.tmz.com/2019/07/11/viral-bagel-guy-history-public-confrontations/ You are a hero.
K-9 Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 39 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Where did I say it was okay that they didn't intervene? I actually said the opposite.. My department requires we wear body cameras and it's our policy that we record every interaction. The batteries in them may not last all day though especially if they are always on and being used a lot. I'm not a defense attorney but I'm pretty sure they would have a big issue with the arrests of their clients being broadcast to the public. I'm just assuming you're not a cop and never had to wear a body camera. It's not uncommon that they get knocked off when someone fights with you. What happens then if the altercation is not clearly recorded? Do we just throw the case out? Do you understand how dangerous of a precedent you'd be setting? Personally, I don't have a problem wearing a body camera and I've had a lot of times where people stop acting a fool when they realize I'm recording. You want to rebuild the trust then work with police and try and find common ground. I don't see how vilifying every cop and treating us like crap is going to fix things. Outstanding post! Per the bold, this is a GREAT point you bring up and I’m not surprised that people behave differently when they know they are being recorded. Is it SOP to let citizens know their interaction with police is being recorded? Not that it would make any difference in a tense situation where situations change in milliseconds, but for routine pull overs, etc., I think it would help. Might even let a defensive person feel more at ease if he knows that cop whose writing him up is being recorded as well. Just a though.
PetermansRedemption Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 On 6/5/2020 at 7:24 AM, NoHuddleKelly12 said: @PetermansRedemption, your time may be nigh—is NP available to come back as a camp body to replace Fromm? As I recall, he won the 3-way competition outright with stellar camp/preseason performances . How about this for a blast from the past... https://billswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/13/pff-buffalo-bills-nathan-peterman/ Well, if Jon Gruden loves him thats enough for me. Gruden only loves 99% of the QB’s to enter the league in the past ten years. 1
blacklabel Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bangarang said: There's nothing a good cop hates more than a bad cop. The overwhelming majority legitimately care and are only trying to do a good job. I'm also in favor of more and better training but you can't accomplish that if the goal is to defund or abolish police. Police have a tough job, no doubt. But, I think a lot of what's wrong with policing in America these days is how officers are trained to believe this "it's them vs. us" mentality. That can cause a lot of officers to respond to things in a hostile/aggressive manner, when that type of manner isn't really needed. If they train every cop to view every incident as a major threat, then we'll likely keep seeing cops reacting poorly and injuring/killing someone. Teach someone that everyone else except fellow police officers is out to get them and it's going to create bad situations. And then there's the problem of qualified immunity. This shields officers and other government officials from being held accountable in situations where even mistakes are made, unless their actions "clearly violate" established law. You combine that with a badge and a gun and a police "brotherhood" that seems to protect even the most rotten apples over the guys who blow the whistle and you're gonna end up empowering some nimrods who regularly step over the line and believe they have the right to do so. So, sure, I'd assume that most cops are just trying to do their job but the way the system is set right now prevents most of those guys from speaking up when they see something out of line for fear of losing their job. And then the court systems are in line with police and it creates this whole circle of protection that most people are afraid to cross because, again, they're likely to lose their jobs for stepping over that thin blue line. I also think cops have too much on their plate. They're asked to wear a lot of hats. I'd like to see a system where there's more integration with police and human/civil services. You look at funding for police and it's usually quite a bit as most states/counties see them as extremely important. I believe people in social work or human services should be seen as just as important yet the funding for those services is always less than the police and it's always first to reach the chopping block when executives try to map out their yearly budgets. I can speak from experience on this, I've been in the human services field for 11 years and at the entry and mid-level of these services it's always a revolving door of people in and out because these jobs are not easy and people are not well compensated for what they do. And the people that make the decisions on this type of stuff are usually the furthest removed from the people hired to actually implement these services and help people in need/crisis. And I know police and social services do work together in some instances, but I believe there could be some situations where police are usually called where someone with more specific training could be more helpful. I'm not saying to send a social worker to an armed robbery... but something like domestic dispute with a married couple arguing is something they could handle instead of a cop who isn't exactly trained in marriage counseling. Fixing things is well beyond removing a few bad apples. It's systemic and right now the system is set in a way where it doesn't allow a lot of the changes people would like to see. I don't have the answers nor do I claim to, I can just say that perhaps easing the workload on police and integrating more social and human services workers to work alongside them and handle things that they're better trained to do could be a step towards a solution.
Mr. WEO Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 I leave this thread for what, a day or two, and it's now all about midgets? I apologize for a brief rest... 1
Bangarang Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 25 minutes ago, K-9 said: Outstanding post! Per the bold, this is a GREAT point you bring up and I’m not surprised that people behave differently when they know they are being recorded. Is it SOP to let citizens know their interaction with police is being recorded? Not that it would make any difference in a tense situation where situations change in milliseconds, but for routine pull overs, etc., I think it would help. Might even let a defensive person feel more at ease if he knows that cop whose writing him up is being recorded as well. Just a though. I don't go out of my way to tell people they are being recorded but I also don't hide the fact if they ask. I've had a lot of instances where people pull out their phones to record me and I either inform them if they don't already know or remind them that I'm also recording. More often than not, the general public know I'm recording and the ones that try to record me are doing it just to instigate. 1
teef Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 I can’t imagine a much better thread will be created this year. It really has it all. 2
Doc Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Bangarang said: Where did I say it was okay that they didn't intervene? I actually said the opposite.. My department requires we wear body cameras and it's our policy that we record every interaction. The batteries in them may not last all day though especially if they are always on and being used a lot. I'm not a defense attorney but I'm pretty sure they would have a big issue with the arrests of their clients being broadcast to the public. I'm just assuming you're not a cop and never had to wear a body camera. It's not uncommon that they get knocked off when someone fights with you. What happens then if the altercation is not clearly recorded? Do we just throw the case out? Do you understand how dangerous of a precedent you'd be setting? Personally, I don't have a problem wearing a body camera and I've had a lot of times where people stop acting a fool when they realize I'm recording. You want to rebuild the trust then work with police and try and find common ground. I don't see how vilifying every cop and treating us like crap is going to fix things. Like with racism, attitudes towards police are taught/learned for the most part.
Jauronimo Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 12 minutes ago, Doc said: Like with racism, attitudes towards police are taught/learned for the most part. I would agree with that but also add that attitudes toward short men are something we are born with.
LeviF Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: I would agree with that but also add that attitudes toward short men are something we are born with. Indeed. Like Christianity, critical height theory proposes that we are all born with original sin - the sin of heightism. Unlike Christianity, critical height theory offers no forgiveness for this sin. 2
major Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 I’ve got a lot of catching up to do. I jumped to the end of this thread expecting to see a solution for Fromm and I’m not sure what I’m looking at
Jauronimo Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, teef said: This place is a maternity ward for hate. Just wait until we start discussing dentists... 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 13 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said: So at what point does it not be ok to fail to intervene? Before he passes out saying I can't breath? 1 minute after passing out? 2 minutes? After he is pulseless? That the other three failed to intervene is more of a problem than kneeling on his neck. That is the problem. Without video those three cops would have signed off on the lies in the police report and no one would have known the wiser. And they would have been rewarded by their fellow cops for not saying anything. I once believed it was up to good police officers to make a difference. But now I believe the only answer is video. Every police officer must wear a body camera with no ability to turn it on/off. Make every arrest video public. With no video, any arrest should be tossed out. We have all seen multiple events where the official police report does not match the facts including today's revelation of the report stating No Injuries to Breonna Taylor who was shot eight times. No video, no conviction. Simple as that. That is the only way to rebuild the trust. Technologically, I'm not sure what you propose is simple. I have the impression from relatives of LEO I know, that policing is sort of like that Far Side cartoon with the horse being pulled in the trailer. "Bored bored. Bored bored bored. Bored bored." (next frame trailer hitch uncoupling as truck goes up steep hill) "Uh-Oh....." So if body cameras have no ability to turn on and off, we'd probably get a lot of video of donuts enroute from box to mouth, steering wheels, scanner chatter, coffee-slurping. I don't think the current batteries are likely to be able to run all day with no charge, either. I'm not saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done, but it would take a couple technical advances and there would be concerns for protection of privacy, as when an officer needs to relieve him or herself or interviewing sexual assault victems. But I think with modern technology, these are probably solvable issues. Then there are probably legit malfunctions, and would it really serve justice if there's the rare police intervention in a crime taking place (that's not intended as a jibe at police, it's just fact to my knowledge that most of the time when the police arrive the crime is done and the criminals gone) and the evidence had to be thrown out? I get what you're getting at. Cases like Breonna Taylor where somehow all the body cams of each officer involved just happened to be turned off and the report is a total piece of fiction - no forced entry, no injuries are you *****in' kiddin' me? Right now police can turn off or forget to turn on bodycams and there are no consequences. There needs to be a way to address this. 1
GoBills808 Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Technologically, I'm not sure what you propose is simple. I have the impression from relatives of LEO I know, that policing is sort of like that Far Side cartoon with the horse being pulled in the trailer. "Bored bored. Bored bored bored. Bored bored." (next frame trailer hitch uncoupling as truck goes up steep hill) "Uh-Oh....." So if body cameras have no ability to turn on and off, we'd probably get a lot of video of donuts enroute from box to mouth, steering wheels, scanner chatter, coffee-slurping. I don't think the current batteries are likely to be able to run all day with no charge, either. I'm not saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done, but it would take a couple technical advances and there would be concerns for protection of privacy, as when an officer needs to relieve him or herself or interviewing sexual assault victems. But I think with modern technology, these are probably solvable issues. Then there are probably legit malfunctions, and would it really serve justice if there's the rare police intervention in a crime taking place (that's not intended as a jibe at police, it's just fact to my knowledge that most of the time when the police arrive the crime is done and the criminals gone) and the evidence had to be thrown out? I get what you're getting at. Cases like Breonna Taylor where somehow all the body cams of each officer involved just happened to be turned off and the report is a total piece of fiction - no forced entry, no injuries are you *****in' kiddin' me? Right now police can turn off or forget to turn on bodycams and there are no consequences. There needs to be a way to address this. They're also not a perfect solution (bodycameras). The NYT ran an article a while back about how what's recorded often isn't very useful and having them did not influence police behavior.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 13 hours ago, BillsFan17 said: Without Google, id like to see how many people know who Daniel Shaver is or who Tony Timpa is, and tell me exactly how much body cams have stopped police brutality. I don't think bodycams are a panacea, but if there weren't body cam footage of those two events, you wouldn't know about them. The officer involved in Daniel Shaver's shooting would still be serving as an officer. 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: They're also not a perfect solution (bodycameras). The NYT ran an article a while back about how what's recorded often isn't very useful and having them did not influence police behavior. The data are ambiguous. Two studies said they helped sort what happened - sometimes to the benefit of the police officers, let's not lose sight that they do get unjustified complaints. One large study in Washington DC said they made no difference.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 11 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: It strikes me that as someone who has uttered utter contempt for pretty much all police officers, you automatically believe this one particular officer. Neither of us was there and i take it there is no video. We don't know her disciplinary record, nor how many incidents she herself was involved in, but let's take every word she says at face value and accept it as gospel truth, right? Seriously? Well none of us are listening to any words this officer says, as far as I know, but per the article the BPD acknowledged firing her in response to that case. C'mon Bill, without establishing Horne's story as "gospel truth" you must know damned well that police do not, by and large, intervene against their own, even one one of them is clearly violating police procedures. Anyone who does has broken the code and risks becoming anathema to his or her brother officers. Would you look me in the eyes and tell me that isn't true? 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 10 hours ago, Bill from NYC said: When the smoke clears (and sadly it will take some time), maybe some changes can be made for the good of all. Meanwhile, crime stats are now soaring in NYC and other places. The community will suffer more than police officers, this I can guarantee because cops can just step back, not get involved, and still get paid. The entire situation just sucks. This cretin ex-cop had his knee on the throat of this entire country, including good, honest police officers. And three of his brother officers watched and at best interpretation, did not intervene. Meanwhile in a pinnacle of tone-deaf word choice, the head of the MPD union is saying the officers were all "unjustly terminated without due process". Can we agree it's more than just a single "cretin ex-cop" involved in this? I'm interested in the soaring crime stats in NYC and other places though - would you be willing to point me at a couple sources I could access? Thanks in advance. 1
K-9 Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: And three of his brother officers watched and at best interpretation, did not intervene. Meanwhile in a pinnacle of tone-deaf word choice, the head of the MPD union is saying the officers were all "unjustly terminated without due process". Can we agree it's more than just a single "cretin ex-cop" involved in this? I'm interested in the soaring crime stats in NYC and other places though - would you be willing to point me at a couple sources I could access? Thanks in advance. And I can’t help but wonder that had they intervened, not only would George Floyd be alive today, their intervention would be viewed as a heroic act and much deserved needed praise would have been heaped upon police around the entire country. What could have been.
Augie Posted June 12, 2020 Posted June 12, 2020 3 hours ago, teef said: I can’t imagine a much better thread will be created this year. It really has it all. That sounds like a challenge! Don’t underestimate our crowd!
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