Jake Fromm: Controversial comments

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 hours ago, Bangarang said:

 

FWIW 2 of the officers involved were only on the job for 3 and 4 days respectively. They should have intervened but I understand why they didn't. Tough for a guy in his first week to tell his training officer of 19 years that he's doing something wrong.

 

On an unrelated note, I once got a complaint from someone who was upset that I didn't give him a speeding ticket. It was a few weeks before Christmas so I figured I'd give the guy a break for going nearly 25 mph over the speed limit. Apparently I was wrong ?

Like an offensive lineman if we want to keep things football related 

So at what point does it not be ok to fail to intervene?  Before he passes out saying I can't breath?  1 minute after passing out? 2 minutes?  After he is pulseless?  

That the other three failed to intervene is more of a problem than kneeling on his neck. That is the problem.  Without video those three cops would have signed off on the lies in the police report and no one would have known the wiser.  And they would have been rewarded by their fellow cops for not saying anything. 

 

I once believed it was up to good police officers to make a difference. But now I believe the only answer is video.  Every police officer must wear a body camera with no ability to turn it on/off.  Make every arrest video public.  With no video, any arrest should be tossed out.  We have all seen multiple events where the official police report does not match the facts including today's revelation of the report stating No Injuries to Breonna Taylor who was shot eight times.  No video, no conviction.  Simple as that.  That is the only way to rebuild the trust.  

[BillsFan17]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

So at what point does it not be ok to fail to intervene?  Before he passes out saying I can't breath?  1 minute after passing out? 2 minutes?  After he is pulseless?  

That the other three failed to intervene is more of a problem than kneeling on his neck. That is the problem.  Without video those three cops would have signed off on the lies in the police report and no one would have known the wiser.  And they would have been rewarded by their fellow cops for not saying anything. 

 

I once believed it was up to good police officers to make a difference. But now I believe the only answer is video.  Every police officer must wear a body camera with no ability to turn it on/off.  Make every arrest video public.  With no video, any arrest should be tossed out.  We have all seen multiple events where the official police report does not match the facts including today's revelation of the report stating No Injuries to Breonna Taylor who was shot eight times.  No video, no conviction.  Simple as that.  That is the only way to rebuild the trust.  

Without Google, id like to see how many people know who Daniel Shaver is or who Tony Timpa is, and tell me exactly how much body cams have stopped police brutality.

[GregPersons]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

So at what point does it not be ok to fail to intervene?  Before he passes out saying I can't breath?  1 minute after passing out? 2 minutes?  After he is pulseless?  

That the other three failed to intervene is more of a problem than kneeling on his neck. That is the problem.  Without video those three cops would have signed off on the lies in the police report and no one would have known the wiser.  And they would have been rewarded by their fellow cops for not saying anything. 

 

I once believed it was up to good police officers to make a difference. But now I believe the only answer is video.  Every police officer must wear a body camera with no ability to turn it on/off.  Make every arrest video public.  With no video, any arrest should be tossed out.  We have all seen multiple events where the official police report does not match the facts including today's revelation of the report stating No Injuries to Breonna Taylor who was shot eight times.  No video, no conviction.  Simple as that.  That is the only way to rebuild the trust.  

 

I agree on video, but I still wonder if that doesn't go far enough. I don't disagree; I'd like to see what you said exactly implemented. My concern is that they can still find way around it; covering the camera even if they can't shut it off. And it's always possible to unplug/dismantle a video device, regardless of how well its integrated into equipment.

 

However. It is a good start. Community Oversight needs to be priority #1 overall, and replacing all the cops' weapons with cameras would be a wonderful start.

 

—Cops need to be part of the community. Living in the community they serve should be mandatory if you want the job. You need to remember that you are policing your neighbors. The police need to drop this whole Storm Trooper gestapo bull crap. They're over-geared, and the protests prove it. You have thousands of unarmed people with signs and chants, and they're in riot gear and rubber bullets and tear gas. That's not how you de-escalate.  Also -- notice this, nobody is mentioning this strange coincidence -- as soon as the National Guard left and the curfew lifted in LA, the protests last weekend and throughout this week have all been without incident! 

 

—Cops need to listen to the community. In addition to living there, the training needs to involve active listening.  LAPD has been doing open-forum Zoom calls with the community... they're not doing it well, it's just the leadership. They're not listening. However, the form has a lot of promise. I'd like to see every PD in the country have all officers sit in on these calls on a regular basis. This is how you build trust and accountability to the people you will Protect and Serve.

 

—Cops need to be unarmed as default. There's no example of a cop needing a gun, actually. I keep asking for someone to show me a story where a cop used a gun to save a life that otherwise would've been lost. Not killing a serial killer or a drug dealer who theoretically would kill again. Somebody's life is in mortal danger, and it's saved by cops with guns. TV has led a lot of us to believe this happens on a regular basis. I'm wondering if it's happened... ever? I'm sure at some point. But when and where? The only example I've been given when I've asked this is the London Bridge terrorist attack. Good example. Unfortunately, not American. Any example you've ever heard of a Police Officer being helpful, like actually helpful???? In 0 of those stories is the cop's gun a factor. The degree to which armed police are deterrent are over-stated and not supported by evidence available from other industrialized countries with unarmed police (UK, EU, AU) 

 

—Cops need to be trained in de-escalation. These guys are all hammers looking for nails. Taking away all their toys will help remove the mentality that these jarheads are running around with, thinking they're playing COD or some *****. Cops have shown, repeatedly, no idea how to de-escalate. All they do is escalate. Eric Garner was selling loose cigarettes in Staten Island. For this crime, half a dozen White men worked together to choke him to death on the sidewalk. His begging for life "I can't breathe" went ignored. It's unimaginably evil to know I watched that man die on ***** camera. And George Floyd. And worse to think of those whose murders went uncaptured, like Breonna Taylor, and how the banality of evil then works to simply cover for the cowardly officers who shot a young woman to death. 

 

***** the police. The trust is broken. I want my money back; I'm serious! I don't want my taxes paying for these idiots to cosplay as soldiers against unemployed drug addicts -- and now we're all wondering, nationwide, wait a minute, what DO cops actually do? -- all they seem to do is cause more problems than they actually solve. 

[cd1]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

So at what point does it not be ok to fail to intervene?  Before he passes out saying I can't breath?  1 minute after passing out? 2 minutes?  After he is pulseless?  

That the other three failed to intervene is more of a problem than kneeling on his neck. That is the problem.  Without video those three cops would have signed off on the lies in the police report and no one would have known the wiser.  And they would have been rewarded by their fellow cops for not saying anything. 

 

I once believed it was up to good police officers to make a difference. But now I believe the only answer is video.  Every police officer must wear a body camera with no ability to turn it on/off.  Make every arrest video public.  With no video, any arrest should be tossed out.  We have all seen multiple events where the official police report does not match the facts including today's revelation of the report stating No Injuries to Breonna Taylor who was shot eight times.  No video, no conviction.  Simple as that.  That is the only way to rebuild the trust.  

 

Check this out -  https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/criminal-justice/black-buffalo-cop-stopped-another-officers-chokehold-she-was-fired

[GregPersons]

4 minutes ago, cd1 said:

 

Check this out -  https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/criminal-justice/black-buffalo-cop-stopped-another-officers-chokehold-she-was-fired

 

Unbelievable. ? 

 

People still are out there denying this is real 

[Bill from NYC]

6 hours ago, GregPersons said:

 

Unbelievable. ? 

 

People still are out there denying this is real 

It strikes me that as someone who has uttered utter contempt for pretty much all police officers, you automatically believe this one particular officer. 

 

Neither of us was there and i take it there is no video. We don't know her disciplinary record, nor how many incidents she herself was involved in, but let's take every word she says at face value and accept it as gospel truth, right?

 

Seriously?

Edited June 12, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[GregPersons]

10 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

So let me ask this: if Shapiro were, say, a black man, would it be okay to criticize his skin color because of his personality, or is it strictly other physical traits that are okay to insult because you don’t like his personality?

 

I think the point that you aren’t getting is that it’s either okay to criticize someone based on a part of their appearance over which they have zero control or it isn’t. Pick one.

 

 

I'm not the person you asked, but I can help you see this distinction.

 

Candace Owens is a better example because she is a Black woman, she is incredibly articulate and intelligent, and also unbelievably racist. What a way to make a living. Dave Chappelle's new special mocks her repeatedly, it's hilarious. 

 

Shapiro sucks because he is advocating for racism. He says he isn't, and that he couldn't, because he is Jewish. Anybody can be racist. 

 

"Racist" and "racism" are misunderstood. The best understanding is the more recent definition that includes the inherent structural element. Racist refers to actions that uphold the white supremacy / slavery legacy of America and continue to uphold white supremacist values. 

 

The idea of hate in your heart based on a person's identity, racial or otherwise, is prejudice. That's similar but different. Black people can be prejudiced against White people. Black people can be racist against Black people. But it's impossible to be racist to White people (and who is "White" btw? Are Jewish people, or Irish? Depends on when; it's a fictional and evolving concept; it's a form of control) because nothing you do -- whatever that is, worst thing imaginable, doesn't matter -- nothing you can do can remove The Effect Of History That Led To This Present Status Quo.   Which means, nothing can remove the many inherent biases that we are aware of, and the countless ones we are not aware of, that nevertheless have an impact on us. The generational wealth and opportunities to education & healthcare and so on are some of just many examples that White people are born with as default. 

 

This is somewhat confusing, but not really. Language evolves. Racial langauge in particular because "race" is not literally real. It's a concept, a framework. It's a lie that's been believed for generations. 

 

It comes down to this. 

 

A) This country was built on lies and that affects us today

B) Black people are inherently inferior and/or White people are inherently superior

 

Pick one

Edited June 12, 2020 by GregPersons

[GregPersons]

4 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

It strikes me that as someone who has uttered utter contempt for pretty much all police officers, you automatically believe this one particular officer. 

 

Neither of us was there and i take it there is no video. We don't know her disciplinary record, nor how many incidents she herself was involved in, but let's take every word she say at face value and accept it as gospel truth, right?

 

Seriously?

 

Just because she's black, you mean? Well, this is also not the first story I've seen of cops who have called out other cops being retaliated against. Do you think this is the first time that's happened? My sense of it is that police behave like a gang... Buffalo PD in particular has shown that quite well on their own these last few weeks, haven't they? So this is not hard to believe at all. You think it's fake news, though? Disappointed in you Bill, thought you seemed generally sensible.

 

Cops are a gang. They use the same tactics as Scientology, they're just more integrated into society. They're just the default; no reason to question it. Nothing to see here folks.  Christopher Dorner, remember that guy and that story? That guy went crazy because he tried going through the legal channels as a cop then waged war on the LAPD. He wrote a manifesto and then there was a shootout in the mountains and 40+ officers shot him to death. Pretty gang-like if you ask me.

  

[Bill from NYC]

5 hours ago, GregPersons said:

 

Just because she's black, you mean? Well, this is also not the first story I've seen of cops who have called out other cops being retaliated against. Do you think this is the first time that's happened? My sense of it is that police behave like a gang... Buffalo PD in particular has shown that quite well on their own these last few weeks, haven't they? So this is not hard to believe at all. You think it's fake news, though? Disappointed in you Bill, thought you seemed generally sensible.

 

Cops are a gang. They use the same tactics as Scientology, they're just more integrated into society. They're just the default; no reason to question it. Nothing to see here folks.  Christopher Dorner, remember that guy and that story? That guy went crazy because he tried going through the legal channels as a cop then waged war on the LAPD. He wrote a manifesto and then there was a shootout in the mountains and 40+ officers shot him to death. Pretty gang-like if you ask me.

  

No. I didn't say that at all. It must be what you want to believe. It was because of her attack upon, and allegations against at least 1 police officer. If she uttered 1 good word about any cop you would hate her, right? C'mon man, admit it.

 

You hate clearly hate all cops, except this one and completely trust her. Oh, you also support a mentally ill murderer in Dormer.

 

Not too big on self introspection, are we? 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[GregPersons]

16 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

No. I didn't say that at all. It must be what you want to believe. It was because of her attack upon, and allegations against at least 1 police officer. If she uttered 1 good word about any cop you would hate her, right? C'mon man, admit it.

 

You hate clearly hate all cops, except this one and completely trust her. Oh, you also support a mentally ill murderer in Dormer.

 

No too big on self introspection, are we? 

 

You're making some big assumptions. I support Dorner? Where did I say that? Seems like you could extend the same basic courtesy you're asking for from me. (Edit: incidentally on Dorner, let's not forget the other deaths the LAPD caused by accident in their manhunt, like these innocent people who were shot to death by LAPD who mistook their vehicle for Dorner's https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-no-charges-lapd-shooting-newspaper-delivery-women-dorner-manhunt-20160127-story.html ) 

 

I'm saying all cops, institutionally, bad. Individually as humans, everybody is just a person. The purpose of police seems to train people to behave in gang-like fashion. It seems to drive people crazy, and drive people to violent outbursts.  And it seems as though any attempts to speak against police are met with, basically, "shut the ***** up" in so many words. They have the power of the law and you're taught to respect them. But in reality they behave like any other gang organization.

 

I'm sure there's some good cops. There's probably some good crips and MS-13 too. I don't think either organization deserves my tax money, y'know?

Edited June 12, 2020 by GregPersons

[Bill from NYC]

7 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

You're making some big assumptions. I support Dorner? Where did I say that? Seems like you could extend the same basic courtesy you're asking for from me. 

 

I'm saying all cops, institutionally, bad. Individually as humans, everybody is just a person. The purpose of police seems to train people to behave in gang-like fashion. It seems to drive people crazy, and drive people to violent outbursts.  And it seems as though any attempts to speak against police are met with, basically, "shut the ***** up" in so many words. They have the power of the law and you're taught to respect them. But in reality they behave like any other gang organization.

If in fact I misunderstood your words, I am sorry.

 

I am not going to list the thousands of things that police officers do for minority communities. You are furious and probably wouldn't believe me, or even listen with an open mind.

 

When the smoke clears (and sadly it will take some time), maybe some changes can be made for the good of all.  Meanwhile, crime stats are now soaring in NYC and other places. The community will suffer more than police officers, this I can guarantee because cops can just step back, not get involved, and still get paid.

 

The entire situation just sucks. This cretin ex-cop had his knee on the throat of this entire country, including good, honest police officers.

[thebandit27]

58 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

I'm not the person you asked, but I can help you see this distinction.

 

Candace Owens is a better example because she is a Black woman, she is incredibly articulate and intelligent, and also unbelievably racist. What a way to make a living. Dave Chappelle's new special mocks her repeatedly, it's hilarious. 

 

Shapiro sucks because he is advocating for racism. He says he isn't, and that he couldn't, because he is Jewish. Anybody can be racist. 

 

"Racist" and "racism" are misunderstood. The best understanding is the more recent definition that includes the inherent structural element. Racist refers to actions that uphold the white supremacy / slavery legacy of America and continue to uphold white supremacist values. 

 

The idea of hate in your heart based on a person's identity, racial or otherwise, is prejudice. That's similar but different. Black people can be prejudiced against White people. Black people can be racist against Black people. But it's impossible to be racist to White people (and who is "White" btw? Are Jewish people, or Irish? Depends on when; it's a fictional and evolving concept; it's a form of control) because nothing you do -- whatever that is, worst thing imaginable, doesn't matter -- nothing you can do can remove The Effect Of History That Led To This Present Status Quo.   Which means, nothing can remove the many inherent biases that we are aware of, and the countless ones we are not aware of, that nevertheless have an impact on us. The generational wealth and opportunities to education & healthcare and so on are some of just many examples that White people are born with as default. 

 

This is somewhat confusing, but not really. Language evolves. Racial langauge in particular because "race" is not literally real. It's a concept, a framework. It's a lie that's been believed for generations. 

 

It comes down to this. 

 

A) This country was built on lies and that affects us today

B) Black people are inherently inferior and/or White people are inherently superior

 

Pick one

Well there’s an awful lot in there that is debatable at best (and flat out false at worst). So in order to avoid a useless exchange where we don’t get anywhere, I’ll boil it down to this: your comments don’t at all address the core issue that I asked: it’s either okay to insult someone purely based on their appearance or it isn’t. Period.

 

I think we all know the answer, so it’s pretty hypocritical to pick and choose when it’s okay.

[Coach Tuesday]

7 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Well there’s an awful lot in there that is debatable at best (and flat out false at worst). So in order to avoid a useless exchange where we don’t get anywhere, I’ll boil it down to this: your comments don’t at all address the core issue that I asked: it’s either okay to insult someone purely based on their appearance or it isn’t. Period.

 

I think we all know the answer, so it’s pretty hypocritical to pick and choose when it’s okay.

I feel like we’re drifting here.  Making fun of someone because of their appearance isn’t nice.  Making fun of someone because of their race isn’t PC and is widely frowned upon.  Denying someone equal access to rights and benefits (or their life or liberty) because of their race is racism.  

[K-9]

30 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

If in fact I misunderstood your words, I am sorry.

 

I am not going to list the thousands of things that police officers do for minority communities. You are furious and probably wouldn't believe me, or even listen with an open mind.

 

When the smoke clears (and sadly it will take some time), maybe some changes can be made for the good of all.  Meanwhile, crime stats are now soaring in NYC and other places. The community will suffer more than police officers, this I can guarantee because cops can just step back, not get involved, and still get paid.

 

The entire situation just sucks. This cretin ex-cop had his knee on the throat of this entire country, including good, honest police officers.

This is an alarming statement. Have you witnessed this in your career? Is it a common practice in your opinion? Cops deciding they’ve been disrespected so they decided not to do their jobs? Just to teach us a lesson? 
 

The entire situation sucks, alright. For all of us. Especially for those good, honest cops. 

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I feel like we’re drifting here.  Making fun of someone because of their appearance isn’t nice.  Making fun of someone because of their race isn’t PC and is widely frowned upon.  Denying someone equal access to rights and benefits (or their life or liberty) because of their race is racism.  

Sure. Definitions aside, it’s a pretty simple concept: don’t be a jerk.

 

I speak from experience when I say that midget jokes start out as just that, but it isn’t so funny when people almost twice your size are pinning you down so that others can take turns punching you in the privates. So while that stuff may not be as prevalent or generational as racism, they’re cut from the same cloth.

[Bill from NYC]

24 minutes ago, K-9 said:

This is an alarming statement. Have you witnessed this in your career? Is it a common practice in your opinion? Cops deciding they’ve been disrespected so they decided not to do their jobs? Just to teach us a lesson? 
 

The entire situation sucks, alright. For all of us. Especially for those good, honest cops. 

No it is not, but; if you were a police officer and felt like there was a deck stacked against you, it would make sense to be less proactive. For instance, if you had enough summonses for the month, would you stop the car that just ran that red light if you didn't have to and risk a confrontation/allegation?

 

And make no mistake, the above is not about "lesson teaching." Not at all. It's about keeping your job and pension, as well as feeding your kids.

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

No it is not, but; if you were a police officer and felt like there was a deck stacked against you, it would make sense to be less proactive. For instance, if you had enough summonses for the month, would you stop the car that just ran that red light if you didn't have to and risk a confrontation/allegation?

 

And make no mistake, the above is not about "lesson teaching." Not at all. It's about keeping your job and pension, as well as feeding your kids.

 

Turning your back on traffic violations is one thing, deciding to sit out while felonies are in progress is quite another and that’s why your post alarmed me. It sounded like cops might to decide to say, “Ok, you want to insult and degrade the work I do as a cop, see how you like it when I refuse to do it.” I appreciate the clarification. 

[Bill from NYC]

12 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Turning your back on traffic violations is one thing, deciding to sit out while felonies are in progress is quite another and that’s why your post alarmed me. It sounded like cops might to decide to say, “Ok, you want to insult and degrade the work I do as a cop, see how you like it when I refuse to do it.” I appreciate the clarification. 

Thanks. I have never seen a police officer turn his or her back on a felony in progress. Of course this does not mean that it has never happened or never will happen.

I don't know how one could go to bed and fall asleep after letting a person be harmed when he could have helped. But, less police officers will initiate work. This I can guarantee.

[Putin]

19 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I feel like we’re drifting here.  Making fun of someone because of their appearance isn’t nice.  Making fun of someone because of their race isn’t PC and is widely frowned upon.  Denying someone equal access to rights and benefits (or their life or liberty) because of their race is racism.  

How about Denying someone the opportunity to speak ? NOT peacefully protesting but physically denying them access and threatening with violence the people and the host for simply exercising their 1st amendment right !!

 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Turning your back on traffic violations is one thing, deciding to sit out while felonies are in progress is quite another and that’s why your post alarmed me. It sounded like cops might to decide to say, “Ok, you want to insult and degrade the work I do as a cop, see how you like it when I refuse to do it.” I appreciate the clarification. 

I also want to add that sometimes, the guy you let go who passes the red light could turn out to be drunk when you encounter him, and might not feel like being arrested. This of course would require the use of some kind of force.

Picture you and your partner alone at 2 AM. You see a car pass a red light and nobody is around. Is the driver intox? Maybe. Do you want to find out during these times? Maybe not, especially if you have your "numbers."

I am just trying to paint a realistic situation and again, I think that ultimately, the public will suffer more than police officers will.

The entire situation just sucks.