Jake Fromm: Controversial comments

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

My life has taught me that police brutality has nothing to do with race. It has to do with individuals.

 

[Great stories excised]

 

My experience doesn't involve racism, and I worked with GREAT cops. Btw there were good times too. Working in Midtown Manhattan wasn't so bad in some ways :). As for the cops, we loved each other. Race meant nothing. 

 

I pray that our country comes around and the violence will cease.

 

I have no doubt that there are great cops.  My good friend's brother, now "Major Brother, Retired" had his life saved by his black partner.   My neighbor's son is rising in the County PD ranks, I know he's a good man.

 

The problem is, while the Floyd case is egregious (and also caught on tape), what about all the other cases?  Eric Garner?  Freddie Gray?  Breonna Taylor? I'm sure there's a list somewhere.  Why should someone die for a no-knock warrant for people already in custody, or for selling cigarettes, or for a broken tailight?

 

Even if it is individuals, the problem is those individuals don't seem to be being sucessfully controlled or removed from the police force.  What is their accountability?

 

Shortly after I moved to St Louis, guy cutting my hair (ultra-conservative white Christian) told me a story that was bothering him.  He and his brother in law took their families to the famous "Crown Candy Kitchen" in St. Louis.  He got out of the car to make sure they were open, and his brother made an illegal u-turn to park - just as a police cruiser pulled up and two officers got out.  My barber greeted them and said "please excuse him, he's not from St Louis!" trying to nice his way out of a ticket.   One of the officers replied:  "I don't care what you do, you're White"

 

What do you say to that?  What do you think it means to how that officer would treat black people?

 

How would you solve the problem of individuals with badges who improperly use their power?

[Bill from NYC]

I don't know about every single case HBF. 

 

Unlike some others, I don't think that my opinions  necessarily reign  supreme over opinions that differ but, since you brought it up; the Freddie Gray Case was utterly ridiculous imo. The premise of the wild ambulance ride was something I never saw or even heard about. Also, weren't there police officers in the ambulance? And iirc, 3 of the officers were black.

 

They all got off, and this was in Baltimore mind you. I mean really.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Rob's House]

5 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Everyone has the right to be wildly incorrect.  I don't know why so many choose to exercise it.

 

You're welcome to argue why kneeling during the anthem is inherently disrespectful. You're welcome to argue Kaepernick's intent was to disrespect the flag.  You're welcome to argue why the Green Beret who recommended kneeling as a respectful form of protest is wrong and hates America and all that it stands for but you won't be anymore successful than all of the people who tried the same in this thread.

 

 

 

I didn't like it because, given the totality of the circumstances, I saw it as a statement that America is a racist country that oppresses minorities. I disagree with that assertion and I find it offensive. 

 

I don't demand his participation. I've never liked the compulsory pledge of allegiance. It's one's own personal decision as to what he pledges his allegiance. Nor do I want to force him to partake in the flag/anthem ceremony. And although it's not required, I do expect one to show enough courtesy and respect for those to whom that ceremony is sacred not to disrespect it.

 

Rather than simply standing off to the side he intentionally and conspicuously drew attention to his show of defiance to what is an apolitical ceremony that essentially represents our freedom and unity as a nation. That he brought it into the football world, one I prefer to remain apolitical, was salt in the wound.

 

The statement that he wasn't protesting the flag but was simply protesting police brutality rang hollow for me. It's not really about the flag itself, but what it represents. The flag and the anthem don't represent the police, they represent America as a whole. And given the totality of his statements, then and now, I think my assessment of his message was accurate.

 

To be fair, if I believed that America was the awful bastion of racism and oppression he believes it to be I might find his actions courageous. In a sense, I still do. It takes courage to do something you know will offend people. However, when you do that you know people will be offended.

 

He has every right to express his beliefs, just as I have the right to find his beliefs, and the expression of those beliefs, offensive. Just as many of you find my beliefs offensive. We don't have the right to determine what others think of us. 

[Coach Tuesday]

54 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

My life has taught me that police brutality has nothing to do with race. It has to do with individuals.

 

I pray that our country comes around and the violence will cease. 

 

 

This is a terrific post and I thank you for sharing it.  I think the only part of it that I would contend with is the first statement.  I do think, for many in the black community, police brutality has a lot to do with race.  I’m not of the view that police are inherently racist or that all police forces are corrupted by racism.  I think the issue is that, for many in the black community, encounters with the police are an entry point for being stuck in “the system,” and that system, as a whole, does not serve African-Americans nearly as well as it should and often makes their lives much worse.  The police are the touchpoints for a much bigger threat.  I agree it’s not fair to all of the great policemen and women out there to label the entire law enforcement community racist because of a few horrible actors.  But those bad apples (as you concede) make it worse for everyone, because they confirm some people’s worst fears and biases, and undermine a fragile trust that you and your colleagues worked so hard to establish.  

To put it another way, as Chris Rock said, police are like pilots in that you really can’t have any bad apples - you can’t have a few pilots who just love crashing into mountains.  Law enforcement almost needs to bat 1.000 at this point in society and it’s not fair but it’s where things are at.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Coach Tuesday

[Mr. WEO]

51 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Lots of things have been blown way out of proportion.  This isn't the first and it won't be the last.

 

And you really think that a team will foist a divisive 5th round rookie nobody on their players and coaches and destroy its chemistry, potentially even driving many of them away when their contracts are up?  If this were Josh Allen I'd agree with you since they invested a 1st rounder and gave him a $21M guaranteed contract.

 

 

Hey, I see some smaller but promising ones emerging.

 

Pegula isn't going to give in to popular opinion.  Fromm stays despite no public player support.  For all of them, it's a business.  They have all worked alongside guys like this before.

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Oh no.  I was prepared to ride out the TSW culture wars until they turned into a Doc/WEO death match.  Hatfields vs. McCoys.  1,000 pages here we go.

 

Thunderdome.  Two go in, one comes out.  The other declares victory with his last words.

[Billl]

Why don’t we just take a look at who Fromm has followed on social media to see if he deserves the benefit of the doubt?  If it’s a who’s who of progressive thinkers, he gets the benefit of the doubt.  If it’s a bunch of right wing ideologues, then we’ve got our answer.

 

Any Fromm apologists want to play this game?

Edited June 10, 2020 by Billl

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Pegula isn't going to give in to popular opinion.  Fromm stays despite no public player support.  For all of them, it's a business.  They have all worked alongside guys like this before.

 

You make exceptions for exceptional people.  Fromm was a 5th round pick for a reason and has proven nothing yet.  You don't potentially rip apart the chemistry of a team with SB aspirations for a guy who has a good chance of not even making the practice squad. 

 

And Alexander isn't employed by the team anymore and doesn't have to tow the company line, but is still a respect man on the team.  If he says Fromm shouldn't be judged by one moment and doesn't have to go, believe him.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Doc

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

1).  If "knowing Fromm" existed on a scale from 0 to infinity, Alexander's familiarity with him would (rounding up to the next whole number) constitute a "1".  Since "1" is infinitely greater than "0"..... you got me there!

 

2).  Hmmmmm, can't figure out why everyone "go[es] there" from Fromm's texts?  you are joking right?  Your gift for disingenuity is only matched by your unmatched powers of sycophancy.  And a newly minted NFL millionaire is no longer considered an "elite" American?  Laughable doc-speak.  But at least the "elite white people" will know they have a powerful advocate in Jake Fromm, right?  I mean, per you, he was arguing in favor of THEM getting those silencers.   He was just misunderstood by the "hyper-sensitive" non-white people!   I bet the Koch brothers, Steven Spielberg, Jeff Bezos and the whole darn gang are MUCH more comfortable screwing  those suppressors onto their AR-15s knowing Jake Fromm is backing them up!!

 

3). "Consensus"?  as in: "general agreement or concord"?  "majority of opinion"? "The judgement arrived at of most of those concerned"?  Which definition of that term are you involving here?---pick from those 3.  LOL.  There is no consensus, of course--you made that up (shocking!!).  The only "obvious" opinion is Pegula's.  He said Fromm stays.  No player has publicly supported that position. Not one.  Tre retweeted Jamal Adams's tweet after Fromm's very special Zoom mea culpa.

 

No complaints about your new kicker though huh?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I don't know about every single case HBF. 

 

Unlike some others, I don't think that my opinions reign necessarily supreme over opinions that differ but, since you brought it up; the Freddie Gray Case was utterly ridiculous imo. The premise of the wild ambulance ride was something I never saw or even heard about. Also, weren't there police officers in the ambulance? And iirc, 3 of the officers were black.

 

They all got off, and this was in Baltimore mind you. I mean really.

 

Police van, not ambulance.  No one in back with Gray

While being transported in a police van, Gray fell into a coma and was taken to the R Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center.^[3][4]

 

I'm surprised you haven't heard of the "rough ride" thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_ride_(police_brutality)

 

With all respect, if part of the citizen "beef" about policing is that it's almost impossible to get a conviction against police for almost anything, anywhere it's not a very comforting defense to argue that they didn't get convicted, so there must be nothing to it.

PS the City of Baltimore settled with Gray's family for $6.4M.  Pretty sure they coulda done something else with that money.

 

 

 

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

Why don’t we just take a look at who Fromm has followed on social media to see if he deserves the benefit of the doubt?  If it’s a who’s who of progressive thinkers, he gets the benefit of the doubt.  If it’s a bunch of right wing ideologues, then we’ve got our answer.

 

Any Fromm apologists want to play this game?

 

Why don't we consult the NSA in Utah for every communication, contact, and online utterance he's ever made? If you're gonna have a purity test, make it a good one.

[Lfod]

1 hour ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Why don't we consult the NSA in Utah for every communication, contact, and online utterance he's ever made? If you're gonna have a purity test, make it a good one.

They should check the history of everyone on the planet for good measure. I doubt very few come out clean. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Lfod

[GregPersons]

8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Bill here’s the thing: you ALMOST NEVER hear someone say, “You know, I agree that police brutality and racial inequality are related, and that they’re among, if not THE most pressing issues in society today, but protesting about them by kneeling during the anthem is wrong no matter what.”  The anti-kneeling crowd, to a near-universal degree, largely disagrees with the content of the message itself, or at least the relative importance of it in society.  That’s what makes it so hard to swallow for some of us.  It feels like the issue was deliberately twisted into something other than it was supposed to be about (patriotism) so as not to have to deal with the real content (police brutality and systemic racism) head-on.  It feels like a trick.  Just my two cents.

 

This is 100% correct.

 

It's part of an ongoing shell game to never actually address the issue. If you really think about it, it's never fully been addressed, not by White America, ever. Civil War is the closest. There's been legislation since, the CRA in the 60s, but the basic message is "We went from a society where Black America was considered property. We fought about it. You're not property. Also, slavery is illegal now, but before it was good, so everybody's good. White people who used to own Black people, we will give you money. Black people, idk, just go figure it out. You're welcome, see ya later."  And then, you know, lynchings and Jim Crow. And so then eventually the CRA, integration. Now the message is "Okay maybe that property thing was pretty rough but we really mean it this time. You can use our schools and water fountains. Also we're all friends now. Cool, see ya later." 

 

And so it continues today, and the forms are different, but the effect is the same. Marijuana is a prime example. Criminalized Black America. And now it's legal and who is getting rich from it? And who is still imprisoned for it? Even in states like California where it's legal, and White America is profiting, there are still horrifying amounts of Americans in prison for possession or selling -- non violent offenses even!!  -- and all Black or POC. 

 

George Floyd is the tipping point, after all of the horrifying examples since Trayvon Martin that have shaken most of the country. There are still, unbelievably, hardcore deniers. And you're right -- they lie!!! They lie all the time!!!! It's hard to know whether they are always lying to themselves and think they're in the right, or, now especially with the evidence being incontrovertible, it's hard to think that they don't know they're lying.

 

"Moving the goal posts"... that is the exact history of White America and race. There's a lot of basic history that isn't formally taught. And isn't known, even, to a lot of people. And that is also by design.

 

Kaepernick was literally just educating people. He was incredibly effective. And the efforts of the NFL and others to discredit him, to distract from the message... it's disgusting. It's not isolated to this, is my point. It's just one horrific example of a horrifying throughline in the history of the country. 

 

It's good that people are talking about it now. It is painful. It is awkward. Some people are very resistant. It's hard!!! It is a hard truth. There are a lot of reasons we haven't talked about it.

 

1) we have been explicitly programmed intentionally not to talk about it. And when we do, we're supposed to easily dismiss it. "Chicago" and "black on black crime" are two big examples of the ongoing impact of programs like COINTELPRO. 

 

2) again. we all need to understand. We have been manipulated. Our fathers and grandfathers. Mani-pu-lated, literal conspiracy mind control secret government schemes. Insane. And true. Read about COINTELPRO, read and read and read. 

 

3) The full unfiltered truth of it is painful. it is not dissimilar to waking up from the matrix, or finding out Santa isn't real. But a Santa you really believed in, a Santa you know people have died for. When given the option to not think about it... of course we wouldn't. It sucks incredibly a lot to think about.

 

I think it's like this. We did not have a choice to be born into a racist society. Those decisions were made hundreds of years ago. We didn't ask for a country with a Constitution and Bill of Rights either. Those things happened to be good, if they applied to you. But it's a joke. It's a shell game. It's a con. It's always been exploitation. The top class, the 1%, the exploiters — they know what they're doing. But of the 99%, half of them actively believe the lie. They think "race" is real. It isn't. It's an idea.  Skin color is hair color. It's physical. Cultures have developed around and because of race. But it's still not literally real. It's an imaginary concept that has real consequences, like God.

 

Now that we see through the lie, the question becomes — well, now what? 

Edited June 10, 2020 by GregPersons

[Bill from NYC]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Police van, not ambulance.  No one in back with Gray

While being transported in a police van, Gray fell into a coma and was taken to the R Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center.^[3][4]

 

I'm surprised you haven't heard of the "rough ride" thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_ride_(police_brutality)

 

With all respect, if part of the citizen "beef" about policing is that it's almost impossible to get a conviction against police for almost anything, anywhere it's not a very comforting defense to argue that they didn't get convicted, so there must be nothing to it.

PS the City of Baltimore settled with Gray's family for $6.4M.  Pretty sure they coulda done something else with that money.

 

 

 

No, I never heard of it and yes, I thought it ridiculous then and still do. Some indictments are for political gain, wouldn't you agree? 

And yes, they "coulda" stole the money as it what generally happens in Baltimore. http://www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-pugh-20191120-kzmc2v7cafetjladglhgnyusdy-story.html

 

I do hope and pray that the prosecutors in the Minnesota case are competent.

[JoPoy88]

6 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

No, I never heard of it and yes, I thought it ridiculous then and still do. Some indictments are for political gain, wouldn't you agree? 

And yes, they "coulda" stole the money as it what generally happens in Baltimore. http://www.baltimoresun.com/politics/bs-md-pol-pugh-20191120-kzmc2v7cafetjladglhgnyusdy-story.html

 

I do hope and pray that the prosecutors in the Minnesota case are competent.

Yes, and many times when it rises to where politicians are pressed to call for indictments and reinvestigations it is because of corrupt law enforcement in the first place. So your point is????

 

and for someone who is so knowledgeable about LEO issues in general (and I know you are) to claim you “never heard of” the rough ride BS? Head in the sand I guess.

[Bill from NYC]

17 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Yes, and many times when it rises to where politicians are pressed to call for indictments and reinvestigations it is because of corrupt law enforcement in the first place. So your point is????

 

and for someone who is so knowledgeable about LEO issues in general (and I know you are) to claim you “never heard of” the rough ride BS? Head in the sand I guess.

Seriously, no. I am not a starry eyed kid. I have been in battles and had to use necessary force, and I am not ashamed of this. They key word is necessary.

 

But to put someone in a van and drive around like some douchebag? Bro, that is weak s%$t  and no, I never heard of it and never would have ever considered it for any reason, even if the prisoner attacked me, or molested a kid. 

 

I am unable to even visualize driving down the streets of NYC in that manner, (especially Manhattan) and placing my own health and the heath of others in peril, let alone in a police vehicle.

 

If you don't believe me, of course that's perfectly OK too.

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[JoPoy88]

37 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Seriously, no. I am not a starry eyed kid. I have been in battles and had to use necessary force, and I am not ashamed of this. They key word is necessary.

 

But to put someone in a van and drive around like some douchebag? Bro, that is weak s%$t  and no, I never heard of it and never would have ever considered it for any reason, even if the prisoner attacked me, or molested a kid. 

 

I am unable to even visualize driving down the streets of NYC in that manner, (especially Manhattan) and placing my own health and the heath of others in peril, let alone in a police vehicle.

 

If you don't believe me, of course that's perfectly OK too.

 

 

 

i do believe you and like I said I’m aware you very much know your stuff related to law enforcement. I just know that in that baltimore case it was floated at the time that that is what happened to that guy and contributed to his death. Not and never would call you a liar just surprised you did not hear about that.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

i do believe you and like I said I’m aware you very much know your stuff related to law enforcement. I just know that in that baltimore case it was floated at the time that that is what happened to that guy and contributed to his death. Not and never would call you a liar just surprised you did not hear about that.

I heard about the case but never believed it.

 

To be honest I didn't believe the Volpe "plunger" case either. That wasn't police brutality, it was a sex crime. I didn't think that any cop, however vicious, would ever do this and it turned out that he was guilty. I don't present myself as an all knowing entity. 

 

Could the Baltimore case be true? Maybe, but as I said; I am unable to visualize something that candy ass and flimsy.

 

As for Minnesota, I am utterly sickened, and I mean every bit as much as you if not more. That ex-cop had his knee on the throat of every American citizen, especially police officers, and I really don't care about the record of the deceased. I watched that video with a knot in my stomach and my heart racing. I knew that things would be very bad, but not THIS bad.

 

Just horrible beyond words.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

 

You make exceptions for exceptional people.  Fromm was a 5th round pick for a reason and has proven nothing yet.  You don't potentially rip apart the chemistry of a team with SB aspirations for a guy who has a good chance of not even making the practice squad. 

 

And Alexander isn't employed by the team anymore and doesn't have to tow the company line, but is still a respect man on the team.  If he says Fromm shouldn't be judged by one moment and doesn't have to go, believe him.

 

 

Alexander's opinion on a guy he only knows by  watching via Zoom do a forced apology for getting caught saying racist things means nothing.  The fact that not one actual team mate, after watching that same little show has echoed Alexander's opinion publicly means everything.

 

Pegula does not want to be the one guy in the owner's room who dumps the new player for this reason.  To use a nautical reference, which he is so fond of during times of NFL racial controversy, he does not want to rock that boat.

[ALF]

Young people make dumb mistakes , I would give Fromm a chance to prove he has changed. 

[thebandit27]

 

10 hours ago, Billl said:

Why don’t we just take a look at who Fromm has followed on social media to see if he deserves the benefit of the doubt?  If it’s a who’s who of progressive thinkers, he gets the benefit of the doubt.  If it’s a bunch of right wing ideologues, then we’ve got our answer.

 

Any Fromm apologists want to play this game?

 

Let me get this straight: if Fromm follows people on social media that don’t meet your definition of “progressive” then he’s clearly a racist?

 

You've got me genuinely curious: do you actually believe all of the things you post here? I’m asking because you are admittedly not a Bills fan, yet you spend a significant amount of time on this board, tend to make statements that are typically not defensible by facts, and have on more than one occasion chosen to misrepresent others’ statements.

 

I’m not calling you a troll per se, but it wouldn’t surprise me if you just dropped by to stir the pot.