Jake Fromm: Controversial comments

[GregPersons]

What the hell are any of you talking about.

 

Fromm doesn't need to be cut; it depends on his actions toward the team and if they accept it. The locker room McD has built has a good thing going. They don't need someone sparking racist fights. 

 

Tre is a leader. If Fromm makes it right with Tre, and the team feels they can accept him, then alright. If they think he's full of *****... who cares! Cut him! 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

I'm not assuming Fromm will be cut, but there are several people calling for it. Hopefully it doesn't happen.

 

I'm not unsympathetic to the historical argument but I think it gets overused to justify a narrative about modern day America that cannot be supported by the world as it exists today.

 

Had Fromm made a serious and unambiguous statement suggesting that only white people are responsible enough to own firearms I'd be more understanding of Tre's position. I still wouldn't support cutting him (I wouldn't support cutting any player of any color for a similar comment made privately) but I'd understand. I think anyone reading this statement that way is trying really hard to get there.

 

I'm not trying to be a nit-picker here, but why does Fromm need to make an unambiguous statement saying only white people are responsible enough to own firearms?

When his state has the context of an actual history of using exhorbitant taxes to price gun ownership out of the hands of blacks and confine it to whites, then mobs of white guys shot unarmed blacks, isn't a statement that suppressors should be so expensive only "elite whites" can by them enough? 

I admit that at first I read Fromm's texts and thought "nothing burger" but then I dug around a bit more for the historical context and said "OK, yeah, I see that".

 

I'm not going to judge and pronounce on what the world is like today for black people thus whether it's a "narrative" or a real reflection of the world they grew up with.

 

 

[Rico]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

Can we please just lock all these threads, mods? Definitely nothing good is coming from them.

Disagree. I for one rarely go to PPP, and these threads in here help you label people accordingly, especially with November just around the corner.

[SDS]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not trying to be a nit-picker here, but why does Fromm need to make an unambiguous statement saying only white people are responsible enough to own firearms?

When his state has the context of an actual history of using exhorbitant taxes to price gun ownership out of the hands of blacks and confine it to whites, then mobs of white guys shot unarmed blacks, isn't a statement that suppressors should be so expensive only "elite whites" can by them enough? 

I admit that at first I read Fromm's texts and thought "nothing burger" but then I dug around a bit more for the historical context and said "OK, yeah, I see that".

 

I'm not going to judge and pronounce on what the world is like today for black people thus whether it's a "narrative" or a real reflection of the world they grew up with.

 

 

one could also point out, if one believes their own statistics that regardless of it is perception or reality - perception IS reality in this case. 
 

A poll was released last year that found 78% of black people fear the police more than violent crime. That is a complicated stat to get to the bottom, but in the end - 3/4 reported they feared their government than the violent crime issue that keeps being referred to. It can be debated whether they should be afraid, the fact of the matter (if you trust the poll) is that the reality is that they are. 
 

So, either way - reality needs to fixed or the perception needs to be fixed because citizens in America should not fear their government.  

[Rob's House]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I"m not trying to be a nit-picker here, but why does Fromm need to make an unambiguous statement saying only white people are responsible enough to own firearms?

When his state has the context of an actual history of using exhorbitant taxes to price gun ownership out of the hands of blacks and confine it to whites, then mobs of white guys shot unarmed blacks, isn't a statement that suppressors should be so expensive only "elite whites" can by them enough? 

I admit that at first I read Fromm's texts and thought "nothing burger" but then I dug around a bit more for the historical context and said "OK, yeah, I see that".

 

I'm not going to judge and pronounce on what the world is like today for black people thus whether it's a "narrative" or a real reflection of the world they grew up with.

 

 

I don't think Fromm is responsible for the acts of his state, much less the historical acts that occurred decades before he was born, nor do I believe they impose any obligation upon him.

 

As to judging what the world is like for black people today, I cannot say what their perception of the world they grew up in may be, but I don't accept the theory that white racism is the overwhelming burden we're told it is based on the word of some black people when the evidence I see suggests otherwise.

 

It does seem odd that in a country where minorities are oppressed by the systemic racism of the majority, that the slightest hint of racism by a member of the majority brings the clear and present threat of professional and social destruction, while the inverse is far from the case.

[GregPersons]

3 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

I don't think Fromm is responsible for the acts of his state, much less the historical acts that occurred decades before he was born, nor do I believe they impose any obligation upon him.

 

As to judging what the world is like for black people today, I cannot say what their perception of the world they grew up in may be, but I don't accept the theory that white racism is the overwhelming burden we're told it is based on the word of some black people when the evidence I see suggests otherwise.

 

It does seem odd that in a country where minorities are oppressed by the systemic racism of the majority, that the slightest hint of racism by a member of the majority brings the clear and present threat of professional and social destruction, while the inverse is far from the case.

 

"I have heard of this racism but as a white person I've decided, based on my experiences, black people are lying." Wow. You rarely see racists so baldly state it like this, so kudos to you for that. And then obviously the bit at the end, trying to find a way for white people to be the victims of racism (!!). Just magnificent.

 

And the whole time you are thinking this is either a good or original or interesting or valuable insight. You actually think you are... contributing.... knowledge. I can tell you actually think you're doing that. 

 

The mind boggles.

[Rob's House]

Just now, GregPersons said:

 

"I have heard of this racism but as a white person I've decided, based on my experiences, black people are lying." Wow. You rarely see racists so baldly state it like this, so kudos to you for that. And then obviously the bit at the end, trying to find a way for white people to be the victims of racism (!!). Just magnificent.

 

And the whole time you are thinking this is either a good or original or interesting or valuable insight. You actually think you are... contributing.... knowledge. I can tell you actually think you're doing that. 

 

The mind boggles.

 

Interestingly, white people often have more insight into the opinions of other white people on these issues than minorities do. Also, the fact that you make such broad assumptions about my experiences and observations without knowing anything about me, much less having spent a day in my shoes, is ironic given the point you attempted to make, but no matter.

 

Taking the word of the aggrieved minority in isolation is not necessarily reliable data. It is subject to all manner of flaws, not the least of which is cognitive bias. Even if one genuinely believes he is the victim of racism it doesn't necessarily make it so. I personally know of countless examples of people claiming racism where I know for a fact that it was not present. I know of countless others where other factors were equally or more likely to be the cause of that to which racism was being attributed.

 

Usually the person making the claim believes it because that is consistent with how the world as they perceive it works. But their belief, no matter how sincere, is not dispositive.

 

Blindly accepting racism as the primary cause of problems in the black community isn't enlightened, it isn't compassionate, and it isn't productive. It's irresponsible. It's also destructive to society at large as well as the black community itself.

 

Anyone who has ever watched House knows that before you can treat the disease you must first diagnose it. If you get the wrong diagnosis you run the risk of killing the patient. This is true even if that diagnosis feels like a really virtuous one and the patient agrees with it.

 

You're not doing the black community any favors by pandering to the segment that believes racism is their biggest obstacle. You're actually distracting from and stifling efforts to identify the root causes and possible solutions.

 

[GregPersons]

Just now, Rob's House said:

 

Interestingly, white people often have more insight into the opinions of other white people on these issues than minorities do. Also, the fact that you make such broad assumptions about my experiences and observations without knowing anything about me, much less having spent a day in my shoes, is ironic given the point you attempted to make, but no matter.

 

 

I couldn't make it past this part without laughing too much. This is the opening of your defense on why you know racism isn't real, as a white person.  

 

I just can't. God bless you for making it however far in life as you have, son.

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, Rob's House said:

 

I don't think Fromm is responsible for the acts of his state, much less the historical acts that occurred decades before he was born, nor do I believe they impose any obligation upon him.

 

As to judging what the world is like for black people today, I cannot say what their perception of the world they grew up in may be, but I don't accept the theory that white racism is the overwhelming burden we're told it is based on the word of some black people when the evidence I see suggests otherwise.

 

It does seem odd that in a country where minorities are oppressed by the systemic racism of the majority, that the slightest hint of racism by a member of the majority brings the clear and present threat of professional and social destruction, while the inverse is far from the case.

 

This might be the most profound description of white privilege I've ever heard. 

[GregPersons]

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

This might be the most profound description of white privilege I've ever heard. 

 

It's... staggering.

 

And there's not a tracy of irony.

 

He MEANS it. He thinks it's a GOOD POINT!

 

These people exist, in the year 2020, and they are AMONG US! 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not trying to be a nit-picker here, but why does Fromm need to make an unambiguous statement saying only white people are responsible enough to own firearms?

When his state has the context of an actual history of using exhorbitant taxes to price gun ownership out of the hands of blacks and confine it to whites, then mobs of white guys shot unarmed blacks, isn't a statement that suppressors should be so expensive only "elite whites" can by them enough? 

I admit that at first I read Fromm's texts and thought "nothing burger" but then I dug around a bit more for the historical context and said "OK, yeah, I see that".

 

I'm not going to judge and pronounce on what the world is like today for black people thus whether it's a "narrative" or a real reflection of the world they grew up with.

 

 

 

So then I guess we still need to understand the full context of the text messages to really understand the “stupid” comment he made.

 

What had the 2 of them been talking about - prior to the comment.  Had they been discussing in college courses any of this history of GA that you are talking about?  Or in previous conversations over time - not just that one? In that case is he making a stupid joke referring to the states history because that was part of their previous discussion- hence the dumb haha.  
 

Or is this a legitimate thought and feeling of Mr. Fromm?

 

My biggest issue with this entire thread is people on both sides making wild judgements based on the very limited nature of the tweets.  We do not know what was said in the apology or if any context was provided.  Right now I am going to allow the team to handle this and allow it to run it’s course.  

He made a comment that matched with the states previous history about out pricing minorities, but then included himself in that minority group of people that could not afford it.  Without full disclosure- the context of the tweets and any judgement by either side is just plain wrong.  
 

 

 

[Bob in STL]

6 hours ago, Rico said:

Disagree. I for one rarely go to PPP, and these threads in here help you label people accordingly, especially with November just around the corner.

Isn’t “labeling people” the root of the problem?  

[BillsShredder83]

6 hours ago, Rob's House said:

 

Interestingly, white people often have more insight into the opinions of other white people on these issues than minorities do. Also, the fact that you make such broad assumptions about my experiences and observations without knowing anything about me, much less having spent a day in my shoes, is ironic given the point you attempted to make, but no matter.

 

Taking the word of the aggrieved minority in isolation is not necessarily reliable data. It is subject to all manner of flaws, not the least of which is cognitive bias. Even if one genuinely believes he is the victim of racism it doesn't necessarily make it so. I personally know of countless examples of people claiming racism where I know for a fact that it was not present. I know of countless others where other factors were equally or more likely to be the cause of that to which racism was being attributed.

 

Usually the person making the claim believes it because that is consistent with how the world as they perceive it works. But their belief, no matter how sincere, is not dispositive.

 

Blindly accepting racism as the primary cause of problems in the black community isn't enlightened, it isn't compassionate, and it isn't productive. It's irresponsible. It's also destructive to society at large as well as the black community itself.

 

Anyone who has ever watched House knows that before you can treat the disease you must first diagnose it. If you get the wrong diagnosis you run the risk of killing the patient. This is true even if that diagnosis feels like a really virtuous one and the patient agrees with it.

 

You're not doing the black community any favors by pandering to the segment that believes racism is their biggest obstacle. You're actually distracting from and stifling efforts to identify the root causes and possible solutions.

 

A+

[Hebert19]

27 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

You're not doing the black community any favors by pandering to the segment that believes racism is their biggest obstacle. You're actually distracting from and stifling efforts to identify the root causes and possible solutions.

This is really well put.  Racism in today's society is disgusting...however its only part of the problem.  A symptom if you will.   There are so many other things that need attention in the black or Hispanic communities that are also worth this much attention but they unfortunately get swept under the rug.  

 

People aren't afraid to go into black neighnorhoods because of black people...they are afraid because many of these neighborhoods have high crime rates due to the situation they they are faced to live in...then this creates stereotypes and boom you have blanket racist comments. 

 

Fix the ever widening gap between rich and poor and some of this goes away organically.  I'm not suggesting thats the only way to do...more saying that there are many things we need to fix that could help remove racism in America...

[BillsShredder83]

36 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

This is really well put.  Racism in today's society is disgusting...however its only part of the problem.  A symptom if you will.   There are so many other things that need attention in the black or Hispanic communities that are also worth this much attention but they unfortunately get swept under the rug.  

 

People aren't afraid to go into black neighnorhoods because of black people...they are afraid because many of these neighborhoods have high crime rates due to the situation they they are faced to live in...then this creates stereotypes and boom you have blanket racist comments. 

 

Fix the ever widening gap between rich and poor and some of this goes away organically.  I'm not suggesting thats the only way to do...more saying that there are many things we need to fix that could help remove racism in America...

Well thought out and put. But if any organization put out a statement like that they would be crucified.

[Hebert19]

1 minute ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Well thought out and put. But if any organization put out a statement like that they would be crucified.

Oh ya.  No question.  This unfortunately is why ***** doesn't get fixed.  

[BillsDude]

Here is the problem I have from "some" who are against Fromm. It's called hypocrisy. They are disgusted with him for what he said, based on that smaller sample size and not knowing more what he meant by such and who he is,  and are quick to want him off the team thinking he is a despicable person, yet at the same time support a clear racist, one who has a very large sample size of racist statements and actions, and which the majority of persons could clearly see as a racist, and as being some unethical, selfish and immoral human being.  These people cannot have it both ways. Or is it that certain racists you will condone, if you are getting something yourself indirectly or directly from that racist person? That's called not only hypocrisy, but selfishness and perhaps not standing up for the truth and what you really believe in, for personal gain. 

 

Although my belief  is that the perpetrator of any racist views and actions may or may not sincere in their apologies,  at least they publicly stated it was wrong, which could help create positive learning for others, and changes there.  Those who never admit such wrongs, nor apologize for such, and who keep promoting such,  are the worst persons ever, in my mind,  as this is what causes racism to be accepted and spread, emotions to boil, and more division to occur. I feel both  Brees and Fromm were clearly wrong, yes, and I do not mind them getting  some backlash..But, is that enough to have them be defined forever by that? No, as everyone has said very stupid things. But, for those others who feel their bad behaviors and remarks, or their ignorant or  racist statements and actions should continue as the others are the problem, and not them, this is where my concerns and any anger is mainly at, as I feel there is at least some hope for the others who seemed insensitive, biased, prejudicial or without empathy. Perhaps it could make them better persons.

 

And that is why I am strongly for these protests, and for those with less power or that feel they have less power to use their powers of the truth and in uniting together to combat those tone deaf and racist forces and persons in power, that do not belong there, as they continue their wrongs without conscience. Without such masses uniting, and pain seen and heard more clearly by the masses through the media, the status quo will continue to occur and people will be continued to be mistreated and any power you have will be taken from you even more. Power corrupts, when it is gotten into the wrong hands. Everyone needs to take accountability for their actions. But, we can hopefully also vote out those who have more self-serving interests and hateful views than wanting to benefit the nation as a whole, even if it means we personally could have financially faired better by siding with any certain others. My conscience tells me I have seen and heard enough of certain others in power. It's time the people and victims speak.

 

 

 

 

[Rico]

2 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

Isn’t “labeling people” the root of the problem?  

Nope. 

[Rob's House]

7 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

 

This might be the most profound description of white privilege I've ever heard. 

 

Are you black?

 

If not, how do you know anything about this? What forms the basis of your opinion?

Edited June 7, 2020 by Rob's House

[Rob's House]

5 hours ago, GregPersons said:

 

It's... staggering.

 

And there's not a tracy of irony.

 

He MEANS it. He thinks it's a GOOD POINT!

 

These people exist, in the year 2020, and they are AMONG US! 

 

I notice that neither of you has attempted to make any argument addressing the points themselves. "OMG" and "white privilege" aren't arguments.

 

We both know that neither of you can back up your positions or explain the inconsistencies that are inherent in them, but you could at least try. Be the Little Engine that could.

 

If this is really the best you can do you may want to question why are you so certain? People who are clearly right don't usually struggle so mightily to explain themselves.