Jake Fromm: Controversial comments

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Color me shocked that you agree with the guy who gives Fromm a pass because it's a 'stupid joke in private text' but calls White a POS for responding.

We don’t say that anymore.

 

I didn’t say that I agree, I said it was reasonably argued. 

 

I think what Rob just said has some merit, if you believe that Fromm made a stupid joke (which I do lean towards, having been a stupid 20 year old at one point myself.) 

 

I don’t agree with Tre is a POS or a bad guy. I think he’s a guy who is rightfully fired up, and now has some evidence that one of his teammates is a closet racist. He clearly has not accepted his apology. 

 

I wonder if there are some Bills players who, like Tre, have not accepted Fromm’s apology, but choose to not fan the flames by retweeting everybody who calls him a racist, and I wonder their personal reasons for doing so.

 

Hope that cleared things up for you. I know it’s a very adult concept to have two separate thoughts at the same time and not put folks in neat little boxes.

[Rob's House]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Color me shocked that you agree with the guy who gives Fromm a pass because it's a 'stupid joke in private text' but calls White a POS for responding.

 

That's a dishonest characterization. People who know they are on solid footing don't resort to such tactics.

 

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No, but they inform both the context in which his texts will be received as well as White's response. To ignore that is misleading at best.

 

I'm not ignoring that context at all. Quite the opposite. I think doing that to a guy when he's already taking exponentially greater heat than he otherwise would because of the current climate makes Tre's behavior even worse.

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

We don’t say that anymore.

 

I didn’t say that I agree, I said it was reasonably argued. 

 

I think what Rob just said has some merit, if you believe that Fromm made a stupid joke (which I do lean towards, having been a stupid 20 year old at one point myself.) 

 

I don’t agree with Tre is a POS or a bad guy. I think he’s a guy who is rightfully fired up, and now has some evidence that one of his teammates is a closet racist. He clearly has not accepted his apology. 

 

I wonder if there are some Bills players who, like Tre, have not accepted Fromm’s apology, but choose to not fan the flames by retweeting everybody who calls him a racist, and I wonder their personal reasons for doing so.

 

Hope that cleared things up for you. I know it’s a very adult concept to have two separate thoughts at the same time and not put folks in neat little boxes.

Of course it's a stupid joke. I'm not judging Fromm, I know ***** all about him other than he went to Georgia and we drafted him in the 5th. And clearly everybody is fired up, and I don't blame White in the slightest for not accepting some apology from a rookie who's probably not going to dress on Sundays. So I guess it just tickles me that this comes up and suddenly I can't seem to find the folks that harp on how the NFL is a meritocracy, personal responsibility and all those concepts that get thrown out the window at earliest convenience.

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Of course it's a stupid joke. I'm not judging Fromm, I know ***** all about him other than he went to Georgia and we drafted him in the 5th. And clearly everybody is fired up, and I don't blame White in the slightest for not accepting some apology from a rookie who's probably not going to dress on Sundays. So I guess it just tickles me that this comes up and suddenly I can't seem to find the folks that harp on how the NFL is a meritocracy, personal responsibility and all those concepts that get thrown out the window at earliest convenience.

Elucidate.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

That's a dishonest characterization. People who know they are on solid footing don't resort to such tactics.

 

 

I'm not ignoring that context at all. Quite the opposite. I think doing that to a guy when he's already taking exponentially greater heat than he otherwise would because of the current climate makes Tre's behavior even worse.

I suppose we're about at that point in the conversation where I ask whether you understand why White's 'behavior' is justified and you accuse me of being a reverse racist.

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Elucidate.

White>>>>>>>>>>>>Fromm

 

and something tells me you're not unfamiliar with arguing that something you shouldn't have sent electronically in the past can and should come back to haunt you professionally

[Rob's House]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I suppose we're about at that point in the conversation where I ask whether you understand why White's 'behavior' is justified and you accuse me of being a reverse racist.

 

I don't use the term "reverse racist" and I already understand why you think White's behavior is justified. I just don't agree.

 

If I'm speaking with precision, I cannot definitively say that Tre White is an absolute piece of *****. I don't know him personally. If I did I may find that, despite these actions, he has redeeming characteristics. It's an approach Tre may want to consider. 

[BillsNutHawaii]

I wonder how many people here know that today is the anniversary of D Day in Europe, or what it even means.  

 

By comparison, it makes many of the complaints of today seem frivolous.  

[GoBills808]

Just now, Rob's House said:

 

I don't use the term "reverse racist" and I already understand why you think White's behavior is justified. I just don't agree.

 

If I'm speaking with precision, I cannot definitively say that Tre White is an absolute piece of *****. I don't know him personally. If I did I may find that, despite these actions, he has redeeming characteristics. It's an approach Tre may want to consider. 

Notwithstanding our disagreement over whether White's reaction is justified (it is) I find the overall reasonableness of this comment disconcerting

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

White>>>>>>>>>>>>Fromm

 

and something tells me you're not unfamiliar with arguing that something you shouldn't have sent electronically in the past can and should come back to haunt you professionally

White is a better player than Fromm.  I'm not sure anyone is debating that.

 

Perhaps you are arguing the decision should be White OVER Fromm, but you are unclear on the definition of elucidate. In that case, I don't see that choice presenting itself.  I don't see Tre demanding a trade if Fromm isn't cut.

 

As to your second point. Can?  Absolutely.  Should? Well that's a sticky wicket.  It would be a lie if I said I didn't derive a sick pleasure out of watching folks getting a taste of their own medicine when they dredge up problematic tweets of normal folks who end losing their jobs. But that doesn't mean should. 

 

And I suppose that plays into Rob's point as well. Do I believe that Tre or one of his teammates have never said anything problematic in private that would case a stir if it were made public? No, because these kids raised in the digital age have almost certainly made dumb comments with an electronic trail.  Do believe it is just for those comments to be unearthed by somebody at an opportune time to do harm to them? No.

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

White is a better player than Fromm.  I'm not sure anyone is debating that.

 

Perhaps you are arguing the decision should be White OVER Fromm, but you are unclear on the definition of elucidate. In that case, I don't see that choice presenting itself.  I don't see Tre demanding a trade if Fromm isn't cut.

 

Can?  Absolutely.  Should? Well that's a sticky wicket.  It would be a lie if I said I didn't derive a sick pleasure out of watching folks getting a taste of their own medicine when they dredge up problematic tweets of normal folks who end losing their jobs. But that doesn't mean should. 

 

And I suppose that plays into Rob's point as well. Do I believe that Tre or one of his teammates have never said anything problematic in private that would case a stir if it were made public? No, because these kids raised in the digital age have almost certainly made dumb comments with an electronic trail.  Do believe it is just for those comments to be unearthed by somebody at an opportune time to do harm to them? No.

Hardly the point unless you want to get into hypotheticals, as we're discussing this particular set of texts.

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Hardly the point unless you want to get into hypotheticals, as we're discussing this particular set of texts.

Which part is hardly the point?

[BillsFan692]

I'm glad we could all agree that Tre'Davious shouldn't be behaving that way and trying to hold the team hostage in public.  ???

[SCBills]

This whole issue requires nuance.   I’m sure people will scream “there’s no nuance needed to fight injustice” but as someone who has gone to protests to express solidarity with the statement “Black Lives Matter”,  but not with what is being pushed by BLM (the organization) ie.. “Defund Police”, I can tell you nuance is required. 
 

However, if you repeat mantras like “All Lives Matter” then you clearly aren’t capable of nuance. 
 

Also, if you drag someone like Jake Fromm relentlessly after his apology, then again, you’re not capable of nuance.  (Tre White).   Love the guy for who he is and not just the player, but I hope he gives Fromm a chance to redeem himself and stops the passive aggressiveness on Twitter. 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by SCBills

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Which part is hardly the point?

A good 80% of what you type in general

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

A good 80% of what you type in general

I responded to YOUR points.  One of which was vague about how White is better than Fromm.  The other was an attempt to paint me as someone who believes those particular texts SHOULD have come back to haunt Fromm, which I clearly don't.

 

If you are interested in having an actual discussion, you need to do better.

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I suppose we're about at that point in the conversation where I ask whether you understand why White's 'behavior' is justified and you accuse me of being a reverse racist.

White>>>>>>>>>>>>Fromm

 

and something tells me you're not unfamiliar with arguing that something you shouldn't have sent electronically in the past can and should come back to haunt you professionally

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

I responded to YOUR points.  One of which was vague about how White is better than Fromm.  The other was an attempt to paint me as someone who believes those particular texts SHOULD have come back to haunt Fromm, which I clearly don't.

 

If you are interested in having an actual discussion, you need to do better.

 

Give me a break. I was talking to someone else and you butted in, after tagging me in some thread I wasn't involving myself. I'm barely interested in the other conversation going at the moment as it is. You're elevator music.

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Give me a break. I was talking to someone else and you butted in, after tagging me in some thread I wasn't involving myself. I'm barely interested in the other conversation going at the moment as it is. You're elevator music.

You quoted my response to Rob first lol.  You know you left an electronic record, right bud?

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by FireChans

[Hapless Bills Fan]

54 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

I hope you're right wrt Fromm. I have some issues with the movement, but they are better reserved to PPP. I just hate seeing people unfairly punished with consequences grossly disproportionate to the offense.

 

Aren't we presuming or being a bit premature here? 

So far the consequences to Fromm appear to be that he apologized to the team and promised to "go forth and sin no more" as it were.

 

Tre' is torqued up right now but if his coaches and team leaders are both listening to him and making the point, hey we all make mistakes, everyone deserves a chance, seems likely to me he'll go on with that.

 

I don't personally see Fromm's comments as that bad, but I'm not reading them from a background where gun ownership was denied to black people in GA by the 1893 Gun Act, which placed a heavy transactional tax on gun ownership, but was unevenly enforced....meanwhile, while white folks were using guns to shoot black people who crossed their lines pretty much with impunity.  The Moore's Ford lynchings in Walton County GA took place in 1946.  No one has ever been prosecuted for those murders.

 

I can understand why coming from that history, comments about limiting ownership of guns or ownership of a suppressor that makes a gun more useful to shoot people quietly to "elite whites" would elicit some outrage.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

50 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

I'm glad we could all agree that Tre'Davious shouldn't be behaving that way and trying to hold the team hostage in public.  ???

 

Maybe I blinked and missed it, but in what "that way" is Tre' behaving and trying to hold the team hostage?

I see him liking or retweeting a couple guys (Sherman and Jamal Adams) who expressed views like "racists are never really sorry, sorry they're found out" and "save the bull#### ass apologies". 

 

Isn't he entitled to his opinion, or to agree with other people's expressions of opinions?

 

I haven't seen him "holding the team hostage", saying "I won't play if Fromm is on the team" "him or me, Beane" or whatever. What am I missing?

[Rob's House]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Aren't we presuming or being a bit premature here? 

So far the consequences to Fromm appear to be that he apologized to the team and promised to "go forth and sin no more" as it were.

 

Tre' is torqued up right now but if his coaches and team leaders are both listening to him and making the point, hey we all make mistakes, everyone deserves a chance, seems likely to me he'll go on with that.

 

I don't personally see Fromm's comments as that bad, but I'm not reading them from a background where gun ownership was denied to black people in GA by the 1893 Gun Act, which placed a heavy transactional tax on gun ownership, but was unevenly enforced....meanwhile, while white folks were using guns to shoot black people who crossed their lines pretty much with impunity.  The Moore's Ford lynchings in Walton County GA took place in 1946.  No one has ever been prosecuted for those murders.

 

I can understand why coming from that history, comments about limiting ownership of guns or ownership of a suppressor that makes a gun more useful to shoot people quietly to "elite whites" would elicit some outrage.

 

I'm not assuming Fromm will be cut, but there are several people calling for it. Hopefully it doesn't happen.

 

I'm not unsympathetic to the historical argument but I think it gets overused to justify a narrative about modern day America that cannot be supported by the world as it exists today.

 

Had Fromm made a serious and unambiguous statement suggesting that only white people are responsible enough to own firearms I'd be more understanding of Tre's position. I still wouldn't support cutting him (I wouldn't support cutting any player of any color for a similar comment made privately) but I'd understand. I think anyone reading this statement that way is trying really hard to get there.