Drew Brees: Controversial comments

[Billl]

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

I do see what your saying no doubt, but to me the Flag is a symbol many have given their lifes for and it's disrespectful to not only them but their families as well to protest during the anthem.

 

 

The flag belongs to everyone, not just you.

[whatdrought]

What an idiotic example of our society silencing someone who doesn't buy the party line. 

 

As far as his comments go.. how exactly is kneeling during the anthem not a sign of disrespect for the flag? We stand in reverence (see, respect) and honor, so kneeling would be the opposite. What am I missing here?

[BigBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Jesus.  It's 2020

 

GET OVER IT.

 

It's a PEACEFUL protest where no Flags are damaged during its filming. 

 

SOLUTION

Take the Anthem OUT of the game.

 

Case Closed!!! 

 

You're right. We shouldn't honor the freedoms we're given where men fought and died for them to watch a game that has no real meaning so a bunch of pampered athletes can lecture the nation how to be American.

 

Honor The Mob or Perish

When they get their way, and when we have meaningful conversations do you think they will stop?

 

Remember this is not about having a "conversation", because if you try you're tone-deaf, lack awareness.  This is a monologue, the same monologue you have to be lectured to and if you think it ends with a flag or an anthem you're wrong.

 

This is the conversation Brees wants, and it's funny because those who say they want one say to shut the F up.

Just now, Billl said:

 

I wouldn’t think Bills fans would be so quick to hope QBs start making racially divisive tweets.

 

A QB honoring our country is racially divisive? Explain. I want to hear the "conversation" or should he shut up and pay homage to the mob? You said it was about shutting the F up, but guess what? He was told to shut the F up publicly. Irony...

 

1 minute ago, ProcessAccepted said:

Why can't others be afforded that same right just because you disagree with them. He expressed his views which is his right and others are expressing theirs. It kinda sounds like you don't like freedom of expression if you do not agree with what is being said. He's not the first athlete who has been attacked for saying what they believe

 

 

I guess you don't understand what you are accusing me of is exactly what is being done to him. He expressed his opinion and now he's being pressured to shut up. Or are you really saying I shouldn't express mine? I'm confused because anyone who accuses you of not liking "freedom of expression" is saying they don't like yours either.

[whatdrought]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yeah, this is a tough one because it's 100% football related and it absolutely should be discussed on the main board.

 

The reason the other two threads got locked is that they quickly degraded into what really amount to personal insults and attacks on anyone with a different view than the person writing.

 

I would love to hear anything you feel you can share about Brees skeletons, I know you do have some connections.

 

I would also love to leave this thread open - even though it didn't start as neutrally as the two that were closed - but people, remember - you are talking to other PEOPLE.

 

The very Heart of being an American IMHO is that we accept that we can all have different views. 

 

Thanks Hapless- I know you guys struggle to walk the line of what to let ride and what to squash! 

[Bangarang]

Didn’t have a problem with his comment but I thought his forced apology was lame af

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I understand your point of view.  Understand I come from a family with several military veterans and live in a neighborhood with military vets/current guardsmen and with LEO and LEO relatives, and that many of them (I won't claim I know the opinions of all) do NOT see it that way.

 

They see it as "we put our lives on the line for America" and what America means to them - which means a free country with freedom of speech and space for different opinions.  Revering that is different than forced or mandated reverence for the Flag as a symbol of that country.   Military Veteran and former Navy Chief Warrant Officer Jim Wright put it very well IMHO when he reiterated the phrase "those of us in uniform used to say, “I don’t agree with what you said, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.” " 

 

I personally don't think many of our fallen soldiers (and LEO) gave their lives for the flag.  Some gave their lives because they were drafted and had no choice.  Some gave their lives because they saw the military (or becoming a LEO) as their best option to better themselves and their families.  And some gave their lives because they think America is worth fighting for - but to some of them, that America worth fighting for means an America where it's OK to protest, including protesting the anthem or flag.  I personally don't think too many of them gave their lives for a Symbol. 

I do know the Flag is an important symbol to many - I just can't escape the observation that many who seem the frothiest about flag-waving and equating reverence for the Symbol with reverence for the Country, did in fact NOT serve and have NOT put their bodies in harms way for it nor have their family members.  And many who are the frothiest about it also are either ignorant of, or willfully disregard the Flag Code and disrespect the flag in all kinds of ways from putting it on plates and covering it with ketsup to putting it on flip-flops and striding it into the muck.  That actually really bothers me - as in REALLY bothers me - but I usually manage to refrain from opining a gristly fate for those who do stuff I disagree with.

 

There are (IMO) really two broad points of view here - you are encapsulating one of them, and I am (probably not very well) encapsulating another.

 

Returning to football - I think Brees has 100% right to say whatever he likes, but again - freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences, from clap-back or disagreement.

 

 

 

Well said.  You, Kirby and others here have voiced my opinion better than I could have so I’ll just add this:  If we are going to better our country, then this can’t be about any symbol, person or specific act.  The people who want to keep this country divided are the ones doing that now as well as trying to incite all sides.  They also make simple, false equivocations.  They make the issue about a bad cop or a QB kneeling for the anthem.  The focus has to be on the problem at hand and how to improve our society.  The brave men and women who fought and died for our country didn’t do it so we could sit around and have petty, fruitless squabbles much less harm each other for no reason.  Give them their due and put in the difficult, hard work to make this a better country.  Even if you have to change your mind a little in the process. 

[ProcessAccepted]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

 

I wouldn’t think Bills fans would be so quick to hope QBs start making racially divisive tweets.

Josh was in high school when that happened. He was 16-17 years old. He has never denied those tweets and has apologized many times for their content. He has explained that he was just a punk kid trying to sound cool. His teammates know what is in his heart and love the guy. Drew Brees is 41 and apologized for any hurt caused by his views. There is a big difference between these two situations.

 

 

[LB3]

6 minutes ago, BillsDude said:

 The fact is, although he has a right to his personal views about the flag, and what it means to him, his earlier comments stated and/or suggested those others who kneeled or did not think or act like him were wrong. That is where he messed up big time. The flag does not stand for any one thing, regardless what anyone says, as we all have a right to be respected for our personal rights to see that as a representation for whatever we choose, based on our past experiences, sensitivities, national historical events--good or bad-- and what that symbol means to us thus personally. 

 

Brees has that same right. He was not breaking the law  and has a right to free speech, too, but if he was implying or telling others how they should think or feel,  suggesting or stating  they are worse humans, otherwise,  for not thinking or acting like him, that is where that bs needs to end, and why I am glad he got backlash back. Had he just stated his personal views about what the flag meant to him, I would have respected him for that, regardless if I agreed or not, but when he sat on his high horse and suggested those others who did not think or feel like him were beneath him, that is where he looked like a fool, showing some bias or agenda, instead of compassion for everyone's rights.

What part of his response did he state that those that kneel are beneath him?

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, a lot of the reaction to Brees comments has been blind rage, but for someone who is not tone-deaf is that not to be expected given the current context - where a man died in broad daylight in the presence of 4 police officers, one of whom knelt with his knee on the man's throat for >7 minutes while others apparently held him down.  People are understandably angry about that.  People are enraged.  That's the problem with feelings of rage and long-standing frustration - they erupt, they are not neatly bounded by logic or grammar.

 

Your comments about Ed Reed are correct.

 

It's equally true that Drew Brees comments didn't change anyone's mind or do anything positive.

 

Kaep started his protest - well, here, I think it may be appropriate to return to what he said at the time, 2016, and what the SF49ers said.  Remember the context - in 2016, among other things, a former police officer in St Louis was acquitted of murder for shooting a man through his car window, after being recorded during the pursuit "we're killing this *****, don't you know" and after being allowed to contaminate the scene by going to his cruiser, reaching into his personal bag in the back, and entering the car of the man he shot.  A gun was found in the car that had the officer's DNA but not the DNA of the deceased; the officer had been allowed to enter the car and "safe" the gun that was allegedly there during the pursuit, without wearing gloves.  [I have a close friend whose brother is a recently retired high officer in the StLPD who can say that all of this is 100% against proper crime scene procedure and proper procedure for an officer-involved shooting.]  So yeah, this kind of thing. 

And that was 2016, and it's 2020 now, and nothing has changed, and in some ways things have backslid, gotten worse.  Consent decrees to reform police have been voided,  Justice Department programs to investigate PDs have ended, that kind of thing.

 

Anyway, here's what Kaep originally said and what the 49ers originally said:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

The 49ers issued a statement about Kaepernick's decision: "The national anthem is and always will be a special part of the pre-game ceremony. It is an opportunity to honor our country and reflect on the great liberties we are afforded as its citizens. In respecting such American principles as freedom of religion and freedom of expression, we recognize the right of an individual to choose and participate, or not, in our celebration of the national anthem."

Niners coach Chip Kelly told reporters Saturday that Kaepernick's decision not to stand during the national anthem is "his right as a citizen" and said "it's not my right to tell him not to do something."

 

Emphasis mine - the club and the coach originally pointed out that American principles allow an individual the right to choose to participate or not.

 

Somehow that changed over the next few months.

 

I personally support the right of the NFL Owners to mandate employee behavior during the anthem on their property and their dime, but let's remember at the very start,  the right of an individual to respectfully choose not to participate was recognized by the club and its coach.  And many who object to Kaepernick's behavior aren't doing so on the former grounds, they're doing so on the grounds that it's somehow "unAmerican" or disrespectful of rights our military fought and died for.  To the contrary.

 

 

 

 

I would tend to agree with you here, even though I am fine with the kneeling, except that most NFL stadiums are owned and/or have taken huge portions of government funding. Public schools cannot require students or faculty to stand for the pledge. If the NFL is going to take such huge amounts of public subsidy they shouldn't be able to enforce rules other public entities cannot. I would guess that that is part of the reason the owners have not "mandated" it. It would be a legal nightmare. 

[CodeMonkey]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Hello, part of the problem.

 

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

 

Why because we have different opinions, are you allowed to protest on the job or during the Anthem? IMO it is a slap in the face to everyone who has ever defended our rights.

This right here IMO is the root of the entire problem.  The kneeling etc. protests are not, and were never intended to be, a sign of disrespect to the military. It was done as an attempt to raise awareness that racism in the US and in law enforcement is still a thing, and bigger than some would care to admit.  Some take it as a "slap in the face to everyone who has ever defended our rights", and that is usually when things can start degenerating. 

[Happy]

4 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

What an idiotic example of our society silencing someone who doesn't buy the party line. 

 

As far as his comments go.. how exactly is kneeling during the anthem not a sign of disrespect for the flag? We stand in reverence (see, respect) and honor, so kneeling would be the opposite. What am I missing here?

 

Exactly; well put.  I don't have a problem with what Drew Brees said as he is standing up for those who gave all so that the NFL can play football.

It seems that the kneelers, protestors, other players, etc who are speaking out against Drew Brees have a very narrow view of issues; only their view.  They don't seem to respect the country that is giving them this opportunity to play football, as well as protest; nor do they respect those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.  

[Kirby Jackson]

18 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Whether or not I agree with Brees is not important.  You'd think he's entitled to his own view and to express it.  And I'd hope that the people attacking him would have some recognition or self-awareness about their reactions to his statement and perhaps assess their ability for tolerance and understanding.  But not so much of that.  There doesn't seem to be much room at this time for mutual respect and understanding which could lead to sitting down and discussing grievances and issues in a constructive setting.  Very sad.    

 

 

 

 

This is the EXACT issue that the other players are having with him. You’ve had 4 years to have these conversations. 4 years later you just indicated that you still have no idea what the grievance was. How is that possible? 

[Captain Hindsight]

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

But the timing of those protests is what I disagree with not the protests themselves.

When is the right time to protest?

[Success]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

1st rule of protest is a protest is supposed to be uncomfortable.

 

 

Exactly that. When you think about positive change throughout our history - most of it started with actions or words that made the status quo uncomfortable.

 

People also have to look at intent.  It was a strawman making the kneeling about our military, a distraction.  That was clearly not the intent of those players.

 

[Billl]

5 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

Exactly; well put.  I don't have a problem with what Drew Brees said as he is standing up for those who gave all so that the NFL can play football.

It seems that the kneelers, protestors, other players, etc who are speaking out against Drew Brees have a very narrow view of issues; only their view.  They don't seem to respect the country that is giving them this opportunity to play football, as well as protest; nor do they respect those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.  

So he can say that he disagrees with what they’re doing, but they can’t disagree with what he said?  That doesn’t seem like a double standard or anything.

 

If you like the anthem so much, feel free to listen to it on your iPod and stand at attention all you want.  The US military pays for the anthem to be played before games.  If players want to kneel during what is literally a paid advertisement, that is their right.  If people want to piss and moan about it, that’s their right.  If people want to put those people on blast, that’s their right.  See how this works?

Edited June 4, 2020 by Billl

[whatdrought]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

So he can say that he disagrees with what they’re doing, but they can’t disagree with what he said?  That doesn’t seem like a double standard or anything.

 

If you like the anthem so much, feel free to listen to it on your iPod and stand at attention all you want.  The US military pays for the anthem to be played before games.  If players want to kneel during what is literally a commercial, that is their right.  If people want to B word and moan about it, that’s their right.  If people want to put those people on blast, that’s their right.  See how this works?

 

If companies want to tell their employees not to make political statements in their building, while wearing their uniform, that's their right. 

[Billl]

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

 

If companies want to tell their employees not to make political statements in their building, while wearing their uniform, that's their right. 

Not when it hasn’t been included in the collective bargaining contract it’s not.  And it may come as some surprise to you to learn that those buildings don’t belong to the teams in most cases.  They are paid for with our tax dollars.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Billl

[whatdrought]

6 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

Exactly; well put.  I don't have a problem with what Drew Brees said as he is standing up for those who gave all so that the NFL can play football.

It seems that the kneelers, protestors, other players, etc who are speaking out against Drew Brees have a very narrow view of issues; only their view.  They don't seem to respect the country that is giving them this opportunity to play football, as well as protest; nor do they respect those who gave the ultimate sacrifice.  

 

I actually disagree with you somewhat. I think the men and women who have fought and died for our freedoms did so for America and the principles of American freedom, not for the flag. I don't have a problem with protesting the flag though I disagree with it and I find Kapernick to be a bit of a schmuck for many reasons. 

 

That being said, I think it's ridiculous that people are saying Brees was off base to call it disrespectful... Of course it's disrespectful to the flag, that's the very intention of the kneeling. It's meant to be a statement of non-compliance and disrespect to the Anthem and the flag. Let's call a spade a spade. 

[BigBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, LB3 said:

What part of his response did he state that those that kneel are beneath him?

 

You'll wait in vain for that answer. It's "cause" dontcha know?

[ProcessAccepted]

4 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

I guess you don't understand what you are accusing me of is exactly what is being done to him. He expressed his opinion and now he's being pressured to shut up. Or are you really saying I shouldn't express mine? I'm confused because anyone who accuses you of not liking "freedom of expression" is saying they don't like yours either.

I'm saying that Drew Brees is absolutely entitled to express his views as are those who respond to those views.

 

He should not get special treatment or cover because of what those views are or who he is. Bringing up ancestors who have fought in wars for American freedoms as a reason why others can't protest peacefully seems a little much to me. How many of the people protesting, simply asking for equal treatment from law enforcement, have family members who served or have served themselves. Brees is choosing to stand which is great but others deserve the right to choose as well. 

 

My point is people that both you and Brees have the absolute right to express yourselves peacefully. I do not like how some people are only OK with free speech when they agree with what is said.