Numark3 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 Just now, Beast said: If someone got in your face attempting to prevent you from doing your job after having bricks thrown at you, cars running you down, being spit at, no....they handled the situation properly. Why isn't the problem the man getting in their face, not complying with verbal requests, and then getting in their personal space? Thank you for providing example 976584 of what is wrong and why things won’t get better.
billsfan1959 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Crayola64 said: This should be the perfect example that everyone should agree highlights what needs to improve. I do not think there was any intent to injure (it was a light shove). They probably shouldn’t be charged with anything (but let’s ignore that as there are many factors at play, fair or not). And the police probably acted with their right. but you had a situation that should not end with an elderly man bleeding and injured. Why our police decided to lightly shove him instead of resolve the situation better is a giant issue. I think this is exactly what is happening: people are looking at this without evaluating all of the variables. I think reasonable people can evaluate ALL of the factors and arrive at different conclusions on this specific incident. There have been a number of very reasonable takes on what occurred if anyone cares to go back and read through. I am not going to rewrite what I have already written. It was unfortunate. I hate to see anyone injured and I do hope he is doing well. However, there are many variables that went into what transpired. There are plenty of instances, such as what happened with George Floyd, where there is no justification for law enforcement actions, and then there are instances like this, where you might not like the ultimate outcome, but it wasn't the result of intentional, brutal acts - or even actions that crossed the line. I can respect that you see it differently. 1
4merper4mer Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 23 minutes ago, Penfield45 said: god I hope I never see some of you folks in real life or at a game Reminds me of the spearing contest. 2
Beast Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Crayola64 said: Thank you for providing example 976584 of what is wrong and why things won’t get better. In other words, you can answer the question to fit your narrative. That's OK.
Unforgiven Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, Penfield45 said: it was like 300 cops vs 1 elderly man you ***** moron. the right thing to do is maybe talk to him and let him know he needs to move, not push him down like an animal. god I hope I never see some of you folks in real life or at a game ok karen don't you have some kids who aren't wearing masks playing baseball to screech at 2
Numark3 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 12 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: I think this is exactly what is happening: people are looking at this without evaluating all of the variables. I think reasonable people can evaluate ALL of the factors and arrive at different conclusions on this specific incident. There have been a number of very reasonable takes on what occurred if anyone cares to go back and read through. I am not going to rewrite what I have already written. It was unfortunate. I hate to see anyone injured and I do hope he is doing well. However, there are many variables that went into what transpired. There are plenty of instances, such as what happened with George Floyd, where there is no justification for law enforcement actions, and then there are instances like this, where you might not like the ultimate outcome, but it wasn't the result of intentional, brutal acts - or even actions that crossed the line. I can respect that you see it differently. agreed that reasonable people can disagree on whether or not the cops should be charged (I don’t think they should). And I agree reasonable people can disagree on whether or not the shove was justified. But I think everyone should agree that there were better ways to handle the situation and it is a prime area for improvement. BUT, I know everyone doesn’t. Which is what I think is the actual problem with our police issue. 9 minutes ago, Beast said: In other words, you can answer the question to fit your narrative. That's OK. no I’m just not interested in discussing this with certain types of posters. You fall in that group. Not a big deal 2
Chef Jim Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Crayola64 said: it isn’t age. It is when you are outnumbered 100 to one by militarized police while being unarmed. Why in the world is anyone defending police resorting to violence (even if within their right) in that situation? it is okay people to admit “they should not have been arrested, but the police should have handled that better and that is an issue we should try to fix.” I swear some of you would be defending the tank running over the guy in Tiananmen Square: “well he did approach the tank and he wasn’t allowed to be there and people weren’t protesting peacefully ... ... ... blabla Darwin Award ... ... derp derp” How did they know he was unarmed? Had either you or I been "shoved" as hard as he was we would have barely moved. The fact that he was 6'5" 110lbs that light shove caused string bean to lose his balance. Please point to the police code that specifies the forcefulness of their "move along" based on age.
billsfan1959 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Crayola64 said: agreed that reasonable people can disagree on whether or not the cops should be charged (I don’t think they should). And I agree reasonable people can disagree on whether or not the shove was justified. But I think everyone should agree that there were better ways to handle the situation and it is a prime area for improvement. BUT, I know everyone doesn’t. Which is what I think is the actual problem with our police issue. Ordinarily, I would agree with you. Context is everything in these situations. I actually wrote about this in another thread, not this one. But I wanted to share it with you just to share my perspective. It doesn't mean I am right or wrong, it is just to show you how I thought through what happened: I watched the video several times. I don't believe the man presented any type of real threat and I don't know what his purpose was or what he was saying. To me, he was clearly confronting them about something. In any other situation, he wouldn't really represent a legitimate threat. I don't think the officer responded in a terribly disproportionate way. He clearly pushed him out of the way with several orders of "get back" being heard. It didn't appear to be a hard push and certainly did not appear to be done with an intent to harm. Crowd control is always a difficult thing. They really can't pause to interact with everyone who approaches them in an effort to reason with them or provide explanations. That would destroy the cohesiveness of the unit, distract them as a unit, and, if they did that for everyone who approached, peaceful or not, it would turn into chaos. To many people, some actions seem more aggressive than they should be, like this one. However, "normal" ways of dealing with people really don't exist in these kinds of circumstances. As soon as the man went down, you could see a number of the officers pause and one actually attempt to check on the man. He was stopped by another officer. This is not uncommon. They are in formation, engaging in a specific mission, and they don't break out of that if they can help it. Operation Plans always have contingencies for medical response. You can see the officer, who started to kneel down, immediately get on his radio. My educated guess is he was requesting medical assistance. Later in the video you can hear a response, "We have EMTs on scene." I believe other officers would have remained with the man; however, there was another protester coming at them much more aggressively that they then responded to. I hate that the man was injured, I really do. I hope he is wasn't seriously injured and I wish him a speedy recovery. I do not see anything in the video that would indicate any behavior outside of protocol, that would indicate intent to injure the man, or that a reasonable person could foresee would result in serious injury. He was pushed after approaching officers and fell awkwardly. Given the events of the last 6 days, even "peaceful" protests have the potential to have isolated violent behavior or to turn violent on a larger scale. Officers simply cannot assume everyone who approaches them has peacful intent - they don't have that luxury. It really is a no win situation. Edited June 7, 2020 by billsfan1959 4 1
bilzfancy Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 If I was a cop and saw my brothers shot and killed, run over, bricks and firebombs thrown at, and these are just in the last week, I'd be a bit touchy too
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 43 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Rage always trumps reason.... ...bad BAD choice of words here.............. 1
Koko78 Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Penfield45 said: god I hope I never see some of you folks in real life or at a game Or what? What are you going to do if you see some of us at a game?
Deranged Rhino Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, Koko78 said: Or what? What are you going to do if you see some of us at a game? Run to a cop for protection. 5 1
Capco Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 16 hours ago, B-Man said: Oh hell no. Not ***** cool at all. And they laugh about it?! Something about violence against the elderly really boils my blood. Please catch the perp. I hope he spends a long time in jail. 2
SoCal Deek Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 People please! Here’s the problem. If you come upon a line of police officers dressed in full riot gear with clubs in hand....do NOT go anywhere near them! They’re not interested in being your friend at that moment. I’m sure you’ve all seen police officers when they’re in regular uniform. Use those times to ask them to get your cat out of a tree. Didn’t people learn anything growing up? 1
Capco Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 17 hours ago, B-Man said: Btw, this has nothing to do with the man being a Trump supporter. This incident occurred in Chicago in 2011. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/teen-punching-man-at-cta-stop-caught-on-tape/1897925/ I thought the camera quality seemed exceptionally poor. Being from 2011 would explain it. Still absolutely reprehensible. 1
3rdnlng Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 3 hours ago, billsfan1959 said: Ordinarily, I would agree with you. Context is everything in these situations. I actually wrote about this in another thread, not this one. But I wanted to share it with you just to share my perspective. It doesn't mean I am right or wrong, it is just to show you how I thought through what happened: I watched the video several times. I don't believe the man presented any type of real threat and I don't know what his purpose was or what he was saying. To me, he was clearly confronting them about something. In any other situation, he wouldn't really represent a legitimate threat. I don't think the officer responded in a terribly disproportionate way. He clearly pushed him out of the way with several orders of "get back" being heard. It didn't appear to be a hard push and certainly did not appear to be done with an intent to harm. Crowd control is always a difficult thing. They really can't pause to interact with everyone who approaches them in an effort to reason with them or provide explanations. That would destroy the cohesiveness of the unit, distract them as a unit, and, if they did that for everyone who approached, peaceful or not, it would turn into chaos. To many people, some actions seem more aggressive than they should be, like this one. However, "normal" ways of dealing with people really don't exist in these kinds of circumstances. As soon as the man went down, you could see a number of the officers pause and one actually attempt to check on the man. He was stopped by another officer. This is not uncommon. They are in formation, engaging in a specific mission, and they don't break out of that if they can help it. Operation Plans always have contingencies for medical response. You can see the officer, who started to kneel down, immediately get on his radio. My educated guess is he was requesting medical assistance. Later in the video you can hear a response, "We have EMTs on scene." I believe other officers would have remained with the man; however, there was another protester coming at them much more aggressively that they then responded to. I hate that the man was injured, I really do. I hope he is wasn't seriously injured and I wish him a speedy recovery. I do not see anything in the video that would indicate any behavior outside of protocol, that would indicate intent to injure the man, or that a reasonable person could foresee would result in serious injury. He was pushed after approaching officers and fell awkwardly. Given the events of the last 6 days, even "peaceful" protests have the potential to have isolated violent behavior or to turn violent on a larger scale. Officers simply cannot assume everyone who approaches them has peacful intent - they don't have that luxury. It really is a no win situation. It appeared to me that the old guy was reaching for something down near the cops waist and the cop didn't shove him as much as warded him off. On a side note how did the guy survive this long? 1
Wacka Posted June 7, 2020 Posted June 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Capco said: Oh hell no. Not ***** cool at all. And they laugh about it?! Something about violence against the elderly really boils my blood. Please catch the perp. I hope he spends a long time in jail. Shoot him or string him up by the balls. Seeing the end of your post, someone probably shot him since then. Edited June 7, 2020 by Wacka
GaryPinC Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 On 6/6/2020 at 5:43 PM, Chef Jim said: Ahhhh so you were monitoring their stress levels. You ARE clairvoyant. Cool. Why not? At what age does harmlessness set in? Ahhh. So you're delusional about the facts of the situation. Not cool. But, oh well. Keep your head buried in the sand as people fed up with the minority of policemen who are bullies with badges get dealt with.
Chef Jim Posted June 8, 2020 Posted June 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Ahhh. So you're delusional about the facts of the situation. Not cool. But, oh well. Keep your head buried in the sand as people fed up with the minority of policemen who are bullies with badges get dealt with. What are the FACTS of the situation?
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