Protest in Buffalo

[Buffalo_Gal]

Buffalo mayor says 75-year-old man pushed to ground was 'agitator' as he says he won't be firing cops
 

Byron Brown, the mayor of Buffalo, N.Y., said Friday the 75-year-old man who was shoved to the ground by two cops the previous day was an “agitator” who had been asked to leave the area “numerous” times.
 

</snip>

and also:
 

 

[GregPersons]

Just now, Buffalo_Gal said:

Buffalo mayor says 75-year-old man pushed to ground was 'agitator' as he says he won't be firing cops
 

Byron Brown, the mayor of Buffalo, N.Y., said Friday the 75-year-old man who was shoved to the ground by two cops the previous day was an “agitator” who had been asked to leave the area “numerous” times.
 

</snip>

 

What a joke. And that absolves them all of walking past a person bleeding out on the street, in obvious need? Brown doesn't get it. Or like most mayors, he's completely owned by the police union.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, Buffalo_Gal said:

Buffalo mayor says 75-year-old man pushed to ground was 'agitator' as he says he won't be firing cops
 

Byron Brown, the mayor of Buffalo, N.Y., said Friday the 75-year-old man who was shoved to the ground by two cops the previous day was an “agitator” who had been asked to leave the area “numerous” times.
 

</snip>

 

 

 

......don't know about you, but I'm 67, have NEVER publicly protested, demonstrated or participated in violence.....raised a family, still pay my taxes, still go to work every day and tend to my business.....doesn't mean I ignore societal issues or undoings.....so being white has to make me guilty of something or everything I guess.....SMH......

[Buffalo_Gal]

Just now, GregPersons said:

 

What a joke. And that absolves them all of walking past a person bleeding out on the street, in obvious need? Brown doesn't get it. Or like most mayors, he's completely owned by the police union.

While the second cop pushing the first cop away to help looks horrible, if you watched the longer video, you will see second cop call out "medic" and the guardsman attend to to the old man immediately (people timed it, it was 15 seconds).

 

[GregPersons]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

While the second cop pushing the first cop away to help looks horrible, if you watched the longer video, you will see second cop call out "medic" and the guardsman attend to to the old man immediately (people timed it, it was 15 seconds).

 

It does look horrible, and it's not just that it looks horrible, but what it says. To be clear -- I understand why it happened, in terms of protocol, and that he wasn't left there for hours or even minutes.  But it also says a lot about police priorities in general, and as Mayor Brown keeps showing, the complete lack from government to hold cops accountable in any way. 

 

It's so hard to hold police accountable, it took global protests for Minnesota to charge George Floyd's killers, and still took them weeks. And it's their fastest turnaround ever! 

 

So it's not just Buffalo, or any one place that's figuring this out. It is a nationwide issue. And enough is enough. Police have been given a lot of leeway over decades, centuries. A lot of leeway. Even in modern times, you think of all the little ways cops abuse their power... speeding, going through red lights, double parking. Little things like that, to say nothing of their absurd payrolls and budgets and equipment, do not help their credibility here. 

 

And knowing cameras and attention is on them now, they still behave boorishly and violently in instances like this. Police are a symbol, and people need to trust in that symbol for it to work. 

 

In response to protests of police brutality, police responded with extreme brutality. That trust and that symbol is all but completely destroyed. People have been radicalized this week faster than I've ever seen. Can't count the amount of folks I've seen go from "its a few bad apples" to "Tear it all down" this week. It's 'cuz of all of this ***** adding up.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

What a joke. And that absolves them all of walking past a person bleeding out on the street, in obvious need? Brown doesn't get it. Or like most mayors, he's completely owned by the police union.

 

......yes you are.....an individual flashing self aggrandizement but with zero substance....and now indicting Mayor Brown as complicit?......yes the AFRICAN-AMERICAN mayor......and yet you recklessly accuse of racism?.....Hypocrisy 101..............

[Buffalo_Gal]

6 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

It does look horrible, and it's not just that it looks horrible, but what it says. To be clear -- I understand why it happened, in terms of protocol, and that he wasn't left there for hours or even minutes.  But it also says a lot about police priorities in general, and as Mayor Brown keeps showing, the complete lack from government to hold cops accountable in any way. 

 

It's so hard to hold police accountable, it took global protests for Minnesota to charge George Floyd's killers, and still took them weeks. And it's their fastest turnaround ever! 

 

So it's not just Buffalo, or any one place that's figuring this out. It is a nationwide issue. And enough is enough. Police have been given a lot of leeway over decades, centuries. A lot of leeway. Even in modern times, you think of all the little ways cops abuse their power... speeding, going through red lights, double parking. Little things like that, to say nothing of their absurd payrolls and budgets and equipment, do not help their credibility here. 

 

And knowing cameras and attention is on them now, they still behave boorishly and violently in instances like this. Police are a symbol, and people need to trust in that symbol for it to work. 

 

In response to protests of police brutality, police responded with extreme brutality. That trust and that symbol is all but completely destroyed. People have been radicalized this week faster than I've ever seen. Can't count the amount of folks I've seen go from "its a few bad apples" to "Tear it all down" this week. It's 'cuz of all of this ***** adding up.

You equate what happened to George Floyd with riot police telling someone to get back, get back, the person ignores them, they push forward, the person stumbles backward and falls?

Yeah, one of those things is not like the other.

While the visual of that man on the ground bleeding was awful, truly awful and everyone certainly hopes he recovers fully and completely, who the heck walks up to a line of riot police? Who disobeys a reasonable police order (get back)?

Charging those police officers with assault is a political move. It is mob justice. And, mob justice can lead nowhere good.
 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[GregPersons]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

You equate what happened to George Floyd with riot police telling someone to get back, get back, the person ignores them, they push forward, the person stumbles backward and falls?

Yeah, one of those things is not like the other.

While the visual of that man on the ground bleeding was awful, truly awful and everyone certainly hopes he recovers fully and completely, who the heck walks up to a line of riot police? Who disobeys a reasonable police order (get back)?

Charging those police officers with assault is a political move. It is mob justice. And, mob justice can lead nowhere good.
 

 

Why is it unreasonable to expect police officers to behave peacefully? Why is that a question that is incomprehensible? Why do we have to fear the police? We literally pay them with our taxes.

 

Charging those officers with assault would be justice. If you or I shoved an old man on the sidewalk like that, we would be charged with assault, rightly so. Cops are not justified for this force. They are not soldiers (Incidentally, soldiers behave a hell of a lot more responsibly). That they aren't being charged is corrupt. That they're being defended by you is sad.

[4merper4mer]

6 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

It does look horrible, and it's not just that it looks horrible, but what it says. To be clear -- I understand why it happened, in terms of protocol, and that he wasn't left there for hours or even minutes.  But it also says a lot about police priorities in general, and as Mayor Brown keeps showing, the complete lack from government to hold cops accountable in any way. 

 

It's so hard to hold police accountable, it took global protests for Minnesota to charge George Floyd's killers, and still took them weeks. And it's their fastest turnaround ever! 

 

So it's not just Buffalo, or any one place that's figuring this out. It is a nationwide issue. And enough is enough. Police have been given a lot of leeway over decades, centuries. A lot of leeway. Even in modern times, you think of all the little ways cops abuse their power... speeding, going through red lights, double parking. Little things like that, to say nothing of their absurd payrolls and budgets and equipment, do not help their credibility here. 

 

And knowing cameras and attention is on them now, they still behave boorishly and violently in instances like this. Police are a symbol, and people need to trust in that symbol for it to work. 

 

In response to protests of police brutality, police responded with extreme brutality. That trust and that symbol is all but completely destroyed. People have been radicalized this week faster than I've ever seen. Can't count the amount of folks I've seen go from "its a few bad apples" to "Tear it all down" this week. It's 'cuz of all of this ***** adding up.

Did it really take weeks for charges to be filed in the Lloyd case?  Does this mean there are times machines involved?

[GregPersons]

4 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Did it really take weeks for charges to be filed in the Lloyd case?  Does this mean there are times machines involved?

 

I misspoke (just as I assume you mean Floyd and not Lloyd, so I'm sure you'll be forgiving). I was getting this quote mixed up with the fact it took longer to charge the other officers.

 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

7 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

Why is it unreasonable to expect police officers to behave peacefully? Why is that a question that is incomprehensible? Why do we have to fear the police? We literally pay them with our taxes.

 

Charging those officers with assault would be justice. If you or I shoved an old man on the sidewalk like that, we would be charged with assault, rightly so. Cops are not justified for this force. They are not soldiers (Incidentally, soldiers behave a hell of a lot more responsibly). That they aren't being charged is corrupt. That they're being defended by you is sad.

Let me get this straight... rioting had been going on in Buffalo. Someone rammed an SUV into police officers the night (two nights?) before. The riot police were clearing out downtown in advance of a curfew. The riot police told that man to get back several times. They pushed forward. And your assertion is the police were the ones not behaving peacefully?

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[bbb]

23 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

While the second cop pushing the first cop away to help looks horrible, if you watched the longer video, you will see second cop call out "medic" and the guardsman attend to to the old man immediately (people timed it, it was 15 seconds).

 

 

Thank you.  I've been trying to figure out how long it took because, of course, every video I've seen stops after the 2nd cop says No, and then calls the medic. 

[GregPersons]

Just now, Buffalo_Gal said:

Let me get this straight... rioting had been going on in Buffalo. Someone rammed an SUV into police officers the night before. The riot police were clearing out downtown in advance of a curfew. The riot police told that man to get back several times. They pushed forward. And your assertion is the police were the ones not behaving peacefully?

 

Did the old man drive the SUV into them? Was he pushing officers to the ground? 

 

I guess I also don't understand what you think the police are supposed to be doing. How is recklessly endangering a citizen part of their responsibility to protect and serve? How does that keep anyone safe? 

 

And most importantly, why can't we expect more from the police? Why is it that we should say they're fine, its everyone else that is the problem? Why are you willing to blame everyone EXCEPT the cops?

 

The answer is probably something like "The cops keep us safe." Do they? What do they really do, exactly? Where is the evidence? Because the truth is, I think Americans all think they're so clever that they would neeeeeeevr fall for propaganda... and yet, everybody's idea of what police actually do, and how much they actually accomoplish, seems to mostly come from fictional sources. 

 

 

[Buffalo_Gal]

2 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

Did the old man drive the SUV into them? Was he pushing officers to the ground? 

 

I guess I also don't understand what you think the police are supposed to be doing. How is recklessly endangering a citizen part of their responsibility to protect and serve? How does that keep anyone safe? 

 

And most importantly, why can't we expect more from the police? Why is it that we should say they're fine, its everyone else that is the problem? Why are you willing to blame everyone EXCEPT the cops?

 

The answer is probably something like "The cops keep us safe." Do they? What do they really do, exactly? Where is the evidence? Because the truth is, I think Americans all think they're so clever that they would neeeeeeevr fall for propaganda... and yet, everybody's idea of what police actually do, and how much they actually accomoplish, seems to mostly come from fictional sources. 

 

 

I think the police were supposed to be clearing out downtown in advance of a curfew.  What do you think they should be doing?

 

[GregPersons]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

I think the police were supposed to be clearing out downtown in advance of a curfew.  What do you think they should be doing?

 

They could've helped the old man in a way that didn't involve shoving him and making him bleed on the sidewalk? Is that so crazy to hope for? Yes, even if he was being an ass. Yes, even if he wasn't "supposed to be there" (which btw, curfew ***** is all unconstitutional and you should be mad about that too)

Edited June 6, 2020 by GregPersons

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

Let me get this straight... rioting had been going on in Buffalo. Someone rammed an SUV into police officers the night (two nights?) before. The riot police were clearing out downtown in advance of a curfew. The riot police told that man to get back several times. They pushed forward. And your assertion is the police were the ones not behaving peacefully?

 

 

 

...why waste your breath with this clown?.....he's in the "always attack...never defend..mode"........it is a method of avoiding constructive dialogue......ironically it was a NIXON mantra (THE REPUBLICAN guy).......I believe we call it "creative avoidance".......

[Buffalo_Gal]

8 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

They could've helped the old man in a way that didn't involve shoving him and making him bleed on the sidewalk? Is that so crazy to hope for? Yes, even if he was being an ass. Yes, even if he wasn't "supposed to be there" (which btw, curfew ***** is all unconstitutional and you should be mad about that too)

He could have not approached them. He could have listened to their easy to comply (get back) order.  He stumbled and fell. Everything in that encounter was on that man. He started the encounter, he did not obey the order to get back, and he was not going home for curfew.

If you have not watched the longer video, I urge you to do so. When I initially watched the shorter video I blamed the police for the encounter. The second video adds more to the story. The body cams will add even more as they are video and audio (I asked about audio and @Koko78, our resident legal eagle confirmed there is audio on them).

Edited June 6, 2020 by Buffalo_Gal

[4merper4mer]

24 minutes ago, GregPersons said:

 

I misspoke (just as I assume you mean Floyd and not Lloyd, so I'm sure you'll be forgiving). I was getting this quote mixed up with the fact it took longer to charge the other officers.

 

 

I did confuse Lloyd and Floyd which is a weird mental block I've always had with those two names going back way before this.

 

With that said, this coming Monday will mark two weeks since Floyd's death. Weeks remains inaccurate.

 

Personally my preference is that Chauvin go away for life.  If a rush to arrest/charge him could even conceivably cause lower odds of conviction then I'd be against that.  Detaining him on suspicion, if allowed, is something I would have supported for sure.

 

The other guys?  Isnt it reasonable to assume more homework needed to be done to button things up?

Edited June 6, 2020 by 4merper4mer

[GregPersons]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Gal said:

He could have not approached them. He could have listened to their easy to comply (get back) order.  He stumbled and fell. Everything in that encounter was on that man. He started the encounter, he did not obey the order to get back, and he was not going home for curfew.

If you have not watched the longer video, I urge you to do so. When I initially watched the shorter video I blamed the police for the encounter. The second video adds more to the story. The body cams will add even more as they are video and audio (I asked about audio and @Koko78, our resident legal eagle confirmed there is audio on them).

 

I've watched it. And I agree with you to a point. I just can't agree that it was his fault, or that he was asking for it. 

 

I understand he was disobeying. It doesn't make it okay. He didn't stumble on his own. He was pushed. 

 

We need to remember that the law can be wrong; orders can be wrong. These are not written by God. These are man-made decisions. And when -- the next day -- almost 60 Buffalo cops then decide to strike, to spite the (very minor!) punishment placed on the officers -- and then defend their actions with literal Nazi quotes...

 

I know people want to say Nazi comparisons are way out of bounds. But they ***** said "We're just following orders." Buffalo Gal, that is the exact defense used by Nazis in the Nuremberg Trials.

 

Here's a harder pill to swallow. We have more in common with Nazi Germany than we'd ever care to admit. Am I wrong? Sure, they're totally different, right? Nothing alike. I mean Nazi Germany happened in a different longitude & latitude, the minorities being persecuted were different, the specifics on the arrests and imprisonments and executions were different, it was a different year, and it's all in black & white photos. It couldn't possibly be us.

 

So what do we have in common? Only that both the US and Nazi Germany have systemically, to numbers unseen before or elsewhere in the world, imprisoned and executed minority populations with state-sanctioned legal lawful orders. 

 

I know you're going to want to dismiss this!! But just take a minute with it and imagine a history 100 years from now. Imagine if the police could be rebooted into a less destructive and far more peaceful enterprise. Imagine the future looking back on this time, the way maybe we look back on slavery or public lynchings, and think "how did they ever stand for this?"

 

 

[GregPersons]

Just now, 4merper4mer said:

I did confuse Lloyd and Floyd which is a weird mental block I've always had with those two names going back way before this.

 

With that said, this coming Monday will mark two weeks since Floyd's death. Weeks remains inaccurate.

 

Personally my preference is that Chauvin go away for life.  If a rush to arrest/charge him could even conceivably cause lower odds of conviction then I'd be against that.  Detaining him on suspicion, if allowed, is something I would have supported for sure.

 

The other guys?  Isnt it reasonable to assume more homework needed to be done to button things up.

 

The other guys, I suspect will get let off. As I understand it they were being trained? They absolutely should have intervened. I am confident if they are punished at all it will be a light sentencing. I don't want to imagine the country's response if Chauvin is not convicted. I know what it looks like; we've seen it before and I hope it doesn't repeat. 

 

All anybody wants is for this kind of thing to stop happening... forever.  Instead of all the time.

 

Incidentally, the cops in Breonna Taylor murder have yet to be arrested or punished. Just one of many examples where the families have to suffer the loss and the humiliation of an absence of justice. (Linking to the petition rather than any specific news source, because it can be found wherever you want to read your news.)