Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, FireChans said: What is your definition of “underachieved?” What young QB’s ARE you sold on their championship pedigree? Don’t mention QB’s who have already won Super Bowls. The reason why there is a disconnect is because I guess some of you expected Dak to have won a Super Bowl by now? Or some other lofty standard? Again, where did I say he needs to have won a SB already? Some of the GOATS never won a SB or didnt until late in their careers. What I have said, is he has a championship caliber roster and has for multiple years now. Yet the team, led by Dak, has not reached their potential or expectations even in Daks statistical best seasons. He has had a lot of big games against lesser competition, but has not been able to consistently replicate that when it matters most or against better teams. I also said, we don't know why yet. Was it him...coaching...other players around him...etc...we don't know. But what he has NOT done is prove to me IMO that he is worth elite money, at least not YET. I also said he is young and can still prove that on the field. But as a GM, I am not paying elite money to a guy who didnt even make the playoffs with a top 5 roster in the NFL, and IMO the Cowboys had a top 5 roster last year. I dont approve of the money they spent on Cooper (not worth it) or Zeke (talent is worth it, but spending that money on a RB isnt needed in todays NFL and often backfires). I also did not approve of big contracts to guys like Kapernick, Jimmy G, Tannehill (in Miami), etc etc. You know who I pay top money too...Russel Wilson who came in and took an 8-8 team as a rookie and made it a perennial powerhouse from the moment he stepped on the field. Guys who elevate the win totals. Cowboys have won one playoff game in 4 years with a top tier roster over that span. Bottom line, I can name a lot of solid to decent QB's who could have replicated the same amount of team success with that same roster over the 4 years. I havent seen Dak separate himself into elite pay category. He still can...maybe it was all coaching, we wont know until we see Dak and this Cowboy team on the field with new coaching for the first time. BUT...I would WAIT to commit elite money UNTIL I see that difference ON THE FIELD and not the personal stat sheet. So you need to stop claiming I am condemning him, I have done no such thing. I am perfectly within my right to NOT be sold on whether he can be the QB that the contract he is demanding says he is. Why...because he doesn't have the results to justify it despite having the roster to achieve it every year he has been in the NFL. Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Again, where did I say he needs to have won a SB already? Some of the GOATS never won a SB or didnt until late in their careers. What I have said, is he has a championship caliber roster and has for multiple years now. Yet the team, led by Dak, has not reached their potential or expectations even in Daks statistical best seasons. He has had a lot of big games against lesser competition, but has not been able to consistently replicate that when it matters most or against better teams. I also said, we don't know why yet. Was it him...coaching...other players around him...etc...we don't know. But what he has NOT done is prove to me IMO that he is worth elite money, at least not YET. I also said he is young and can still prove that on the field. But as a GM, I am not paying elite money to a guy who didnt even make the playoffs with a top 5 roster in the NFL, and IMO the Cowboys had a top 5 roster last year. I dont approve of the money they spent on Cooper (not worth it) or Zeke (talent is worth it, but spending that money on a RB isnt needed in todays NFL and often backfires). I also did not approve of big contracts to guys like Kapernick, Jimmy G, Tannehill (in Miami), etc etc. You know who I pay top money too...Russel Wilson who came in and took an 8-8 team as a rookie and made it a perennial powerhouse from the moment he stepped on the field. Guys who elevate the win totals. Cowboys have won one playoff game in 4 years with a top tier roster over that span. Bottom line, I can name a lot of solid to decent QB's who could have replicated the same amount of team success with that same roster over the 4 years. I havent seen Dak separate himself into elite pay category. He still can...maybe it was all coaching, we wont know until we see Dak and this Cowboy team on the field with new coaching for the first time. BUT...I would WAIT to commit elite money UNTIL I see that difference ON THE FIELD and not the personal stat sheet. So you need to stop claiming I am condemning him, I have done no such thing. I am perfectly within my right to NOT be sold on whether he can be the QB that the contract he is demanding says he is. Why...because he doesn't have the results to justify it despite having the roster to achieve it every year he has been in the NFL. I never said you said he needed to have won a Super Bowl already. Stop taking rhetorical questions as quotes of yours. What expectations are those that they have not met? Like you keep talking about how they haven’t achieved what they should. Give a tangible goal. What young QB’s have proved their championship pedigree to you? Please answer these questions. My personal theory is that you, like many other folks in this thread, WON’T like to answer those questions because your opinions fall apart with cursory examination. Because once you put them into the larger context of the NFL, they are silly. Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans 1
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, FireChans said: I never said you said he needed to have won a Super Bowl already. Stop taking rhetorical questions as quotes of yours. What expectations are those that they have not met? Like you keep talking about how they haven’t achieved what they should. Give a tangible goal. What young QB’s have proved their championship pedigree to you? Please answer these questions. My personal theory is that you, like many other folks in this thread, WON’T like to answer those questions because your opinions fall apart with cursory examination. Because once you put them into the larger context of the NFL, they are silly. I just did answer that question. I suggest you read it again. One playoff win in 4 years with a championship roster all 4 years, including a .500 season last year, and not showing up in the bigger game against better competition. I mean I literally even cited a specific example of a player who came in and immediately elevated his team to a perennial powerhouse in Russel Wilson as an example of a guy who proved early he was worth elite money. Honestly man, you need to start reading the posts better you reply to. You do this a lot.
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I just did answer that question. I suggest you read it again. One playoff win in 4 years with a championship roster all 4 years, including a .500 season last year, and not showing up in the bigger game against better competition. I mean I literally even cited a specific example of a player who came in and immediately elevated his team to a perennial powerhouse in Russel Wilson as an example of a guy who proved early he was worth elite money. Honestly man, you need to start reading the posts better you reply to. You do this a lot. What bigger games did he not show up for? The reason why I continue to ask the questions is because you are not specific. If they had two playoff wins, do you say pay him? You use Russell Wilson, a guy who won a Super Bowl by his second year, and then vehemently deny that Dak needed to win a Super Bowl to earn an extension. You continue to say these vague things to “prove” Dak isn’t worth an extension, BUT you also refuse to tell me what young QB’s have earned that stamp of championship pedigree approval. I will ask a THIRD time. What young QB’s have proven their championship pedigree? RUSSELL WILSON IS 31. He is on his THIRD contract. He does NOT COUNT. I will give you credit, Alpha. I went back and you were one person who has been incredibly consistent about paying Russ from the jump. Lots of folks in 2015 were saying it was all the talented team around him and you weren’t.
Billl Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 39 minutes ago, FireChans said: I never said you said he needed to have won a Super Bowl already. Stop taking rhetorical questions as quotes of yours. What expectations are those that they have not met? Like you keep talking about how they haven’t achieved what they should. Give a tangible goal. What young QB’s have proved their championship pedigree to you? Please answer these questions. My personal theory is that you, like many other folks in this thread, WON’T like to answer those questions because your opinions fall apart with cursory examination. Because once you put them into the larger context of the NFL, they are silly. C’mon now... He just said he’d pay Russell Wilson. Give him props for bold statements like that. Just go get a first ballot HOFer to play QB for 15 years and then draft a roster of all pros to put around him. Why don’t more GMs realize this?
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, GoBills808 said: I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things- 1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers 2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season 3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing Agree totally with that.
Kirby Jackson Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, GoBills808 said: I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things- 1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers 2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season 3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 100% this
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, FireChans said: What bigger games did he not show up for? The reason why I continue to ask the questions is because you are not specific. If they had two playoff wins, do you say pay him? You use Russell Wilson, a guy who won a Super Bowl by his second year, and then vehemently deny that Dak needed to win a Super Bowl to earn an extension. You continue to say these vague things to “prove” Dak isn’t worth an extension, BUT you also refuse to tell me what young QB’s have earned that stamp of championship pedigree approval. I will ask a THIRD time. What young QB’s have proven their championship pedigree? RUSSELL WILSON IS 31. He is on his THIRD contract. He does NOT COUNT. I will give you credit, Alpha. I went back and you were one person who has been incredibly consistent about paying Russ from the jump. Lots of folks in 2015 were saying it was all the talented team around him and you weren’t. But you cant disqualify Wilson because he won a Super Bowl. And I am not talking about Wilson at 31, I am talking about young Wilson, I was sold on him back then as already being a guy headed to elite status as he played his best in the biggest moments. He took a back to back 7 win team and made it a perennial NFC powerhouse. No one points to the Seahawks and say they underachieve. They aren't making the SB every single year, rosters go through changes, but he has continued to elevate that team year after year, even when the roster wasn't as strong. He's put that team on his back, he's a leader that makes his team better and proved that countless times on the field and in huge moments. Dak is no where near Russels level right now, so he should not be paid like it either. Dak, could still prove be that guy...but he also may be just be a solid QB who has the benefit of very talented rosters around him to put up strong personal stats through big games against softer opponents. Time will tell. But, while I am NOT condemning Dak, I am also not sold he is an elite player worthy of what he is looking for. Its just that simple man. There is nothing anyone can do to convince me that Andy Dalton wasn't capable of having the same level of success playing for the Cowboys the last 4 years that Dak did. Thats the problem. Dak has not separated himself into an elite category. Does Dak have more upside still, absolutely. But, I am not a fan of massively over paying for upside without seeing the winning traits on the field. Dak needs to prove to me he can win because he has the roster to do it, but hasn't done enough of it. Today, I just do not have the confidence that I had in Russel Wilson when I saw what a special talent he was early on. I have the same opinion of Goff, another guy I am not sold on in the same areas I am not sold on with Dak. Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 46 minutes ago, Billl said: C’mon now... He just said he’d pay Russell Wilson. Give him props for bold statements like that. Just go get a first ballot HOFer to play QB for 15 years and then draft a roster of all pros to put around him. Why don’t more GMs realize this? Lol I actually agree with Alpha on a lot, but he knows once he mentions Watson and proving championship caliber, I’m going to tear it apart. 31 NFL QB’s don’t win the Super Bowl every year. 20 don’t make the playoffs every year. 4 get bounced in the first round every year. I get it, some folks have expected more out of Dak and the Cowboys. But if one more playoff game is the difference between paying him or not, well that’s just silly. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Billl said: C’mon now... He just said he’d pay Russell Wilson. Give him props for bold statements like that. Just go get a first ballot HOFer to play QB for 15 years and then draft a roster of all pros to put around him. Why don’t more GMs realize this? Dude...you need to read more. I literally posted about young Wilson as an example of a young player who proved elite traits on the field. Its NOT common to see an ELITE QB emerge as they are NOT many of them in the league at any one time. Geezus dude. I don't pay elite money on a long committed contract to a player who has not elevated the team to even its minimal expectations. He is coming off a year where a TOP FIVE talented roster DID NOT make the playoffs DESPITE no major injuries. Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7 1
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: But you cant disqualify Wilson because he won a Super Bowl. He took a back to back 7 win team and made it a perennial NFC powerhouse. No one points to the Seahawks and say they underachieve. They aren't making the SB every single year, rosters go through changes, but he has continued to elevate that team year after year, even when the roster wasn't as strong. He's put that team on his back, he's a leader that makes his team better and proved that countless times on the field and in huge moments. Dak is no where near Russels level right now, so he should not be paid like it either. Dak, could still prove be that guy...but he also may be just be a solid QB who has the benefit of very talented rosters around him to put up strong personal stats through big games against softer opponents. Time will tell. But, while I am NOT condemning Dak, I am also not sold he is an elite player worthy of what he is looking for. Its just that simple man. There is nothing anyone can do to convince me that Andy Dalton wasn't capable of having the same level of success playing for the Cowboys the last 4 years that Dak did. Thats the problem. Dak has not separated himself into an elite category. Does Dak have more upside still, absolutely. But, I am not a fan of massively over paying for upside without seeing the winning traits on the field. Dak needs to prove to me he can win because he has the roster to do it, but hasn't done enough of it. Today, I just do not have the confidence that I had in Russel Wilson when I saw what a special talent he was early on. I have the same opinion of Goff, another guy I am not sold on in the same areas I am not sold on with Dak. You legitimately cannot name another young QB. That says it all I think. Wilson is proven, we all know this. I’m not discounting him because he’s great, I’m discounting him because it’s OBVIOUS. He won a Super Bow and played excellent on his rookie deal. Oh wow, he took a 7 win team! Dak took a 4 win team. Talk about the young QB’s currently. Watson is up for extension next year. What do you think about him? Again, the point is that you cannot name a QB that hasn’t won a Super Bowl that you’d pay. So that’s the standard you’re obviously holding Dak too. Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans 1
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, FireChans said: You legitimately cannot name another young QB. That says it all I think. Wilson is proven, we all know this. I’m not discounting him because he’s great, I’m discounting him because it’s OBVIOUS. He won a Super Bow and played excellent on his rookie deal. Oh wow, he took a 7 win team! Dak took a 4 win team. Talk about the young QB’s currently. Watson is up for extension next year. What do you think about him? Again, the point is that you cannot name a QB that hasn’t won a Super Bowl that you’d pay. So that’s the standard you’re obviously holding Dak too. Come on man, you cant disqualify "obvious" answers. They are factual answers, hence the "obvious". And you already acknowledged and gave me props for advocating to pay Wilson when he was at the same stage of Dak, not the Wilson of today. So you KNOW I am consistent in my answer as you looked it up yourself. And most people here did not want to pay Wilson really when I was saying to pay him, most people said he was just a product of Lynch, which was nonsense. And to answer your question, yes I would feel more comfortable paying Watson. Why...because I dont look at Watson and feel like he is "under achieving" with his team. He has carried that team, especially with weak run support, injuries to his receivers and TE's, injuries to elite players like Watt, and bad OL most his career, etc. And that roster is no where near as talented overall as the Cowboys have had during Daks 4 years. Watson hasn't had a top 5 roster 4 straight years and failed to make the playoffs twice and only won one playoff game. Dak has. Its that simple. Watson has done about as much, or more than Dak with a lesser roster. Watson has reached playoffs in 2 of his 3 years and has one win, and the only time he missed the playoffs was the year he was knocked out for the season mid way as a rookie. Dak has made playoffs twice in 4 years, and has one win. Watson has a lesser roster, and has been more consistent in leading his team and made playoffs in back to back years, something Dak has yet to do despite the better roster. Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7 1 1
Billl Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 4 years into his career, Dak has won 40 regular season games. He’s thrown 97 TDs and 36 INTs with just under 16,000 yards passing and a QB rating of 97. He’s made the playoffs twice and won one game throwing 5 TDs and 2 INTs with 794 passing yards and a rating of 95.7. To match that, Josh would have to win 25 regular season games in the next 2 seasons. He'll have to throw 67 TDs and 15 INTs with about 11,000 yards passing and a rating of around 120. He’ll need to win a playoff game for the first time, throw for 500 yards and 5 TDs with a rating of around 120 in those games. That’s not to surpass what Dak has done. That’s just to match it. Dak has that much of a lead with just a 2 year head start. It’s basically a 2 unanimous MVP caliber season difference just to pull even in terms of career accomplishments. Edited June 3, 2020 by Billl
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Billl said: 4 years into his career, Dak has won 40 regular season games. He’s thrown 97 TDs and 36 INTs with just under 16,000 yards passing and a QB rating of 97. He’s made the playoffs twice and won one game throwing 5 TDs and 2 INTs with 794 passing yards and a rating of 95.7. To match that, Josh would have to win 25 regular season games in the next 2 seasons. He'll have to throw 67 TDs and 15 INTs with about 11,000 yards passing and a rating of around 120. He’ll need to win a playoff game for the first time, throw for 500 yards and 5 TDs with a rating of around 120 in those games. That’s not to surpass what Dak has done. That’s just to match it. Dak has that much of a lead with just a 2 year head start. It’s basically a 2 unanimous MVP caliber season difference just to pull even in terms of career accomplishments. Except Josh does not have to do any of that to win a Super Bowl. Its not about how much stats your QB puts up, its about how many wins he leads your team too. For years, the most prolific passers in the NFL struggled to even make the playoffs like Rivers, Ryan, Brees, Stafford, etc. Its is NOT about stats. How are you like one the few people who still does NOT get that? Its not about statistical matching, its about the guy doing what needs to be done on the field to get wins. Allen in his first 2 years, with an inferior roster, leads the NFL in comeback wins and is one of the highest rated 4th quarter rated passers in the entire league. And he missed or did not finish 6 games due to injury in that span, and still leads the NFL in this category over his first 2 years. Your obsession with season total stats is exactly why your logic is flawed. Troy Aikman wasn't a prolific passer, but he won and won a lot with a stacked roster like Dak has. You do not have throw for 4800+ yards and 40+ TDs to win a Super Bowl. So sorry, who the hell cares about what you think Allen needs to do to statistically match Dak. Dak also doesnt run like Allen...Allen put up 30 TD's but you are only counting his passing ones, yet the rushing ones count the same on the score board. Just about everything you have said is foolish in your analysis. Edited June 3, 2020 by Alphadawg7 1
Doc Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: Except Josh does not have to do any of that to win a Super Bowl. Its not about how much stats your QB puts up, its about how many wins he leads your team too. For years, the most prolific passers in the NFL struggled to even make the playoffs like Rivers, Ryan, Brees, Stafford, etc. Its is NOT about stats. How are you like one the few people who still does NOT get that? Its not about statistical matching, its about the guy doing what needs to be done on the field to get wins. Allen in his first 2 years, with an inferior roster, leads the NFL in comeback wins and is one of the highest rated 4th quarter rated passers in the entire league. And he missed or did not finish 6 games due to injury in that span, and still leads the NFL in this category over his first 2 years. Your obsession with season total stats is exactly why your logic is flawed. Troy Aikman wasn't a prolific passer, but he won and won a lot with a stacked roster like Dak has. You do not have throw for 4800+ yards and 40+ TDs to win a Super Bowl. So sorry, who the hell cares about what you think Allen needs to do to statistically match Dak. Dak also doesnt run like Allen...Allen put up 30 TD's but you are only counting his passing ones, yet the rushing ones count the same on the score board. Just about everything you have said is foolish in your analysis. Speaking of first 2 years, I don't agree with those who say that Dak was better in his 2nd season than Josh was in his. Which is a major part of why I wouldn't make the trade. Edited June 4, 2020 by Doc 1
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