Not at the table Karlos Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 I am pretty hard on Allen. He has a lot to improve on but there’s no way I’d trade Allen for Dak and I like Dak. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Billl said: So if you take away the best season of his 4 year career, he’s only 6 games above .500... Posters here will twist themselves into pretzels to explain why Allen is way better than his stats suggest while insisting that every other QB is far worse than their numbers suggest. Dak led his team to 119 more points than Allen. If a team can’t make the postseason when scoring 113 points more than their opponents, that’s horrendous coaching. TBD would throw a parade if Allen had a season anywhere near as productive as what Dak just had, and Dak is still only 26. James Winston led the NFL in passing last year. He is not a good QB. Stat chasing is a fools path to false positive results. 1
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, JESSEFEFFER said: Against the NFC East the Cowboys were +97. Add the Dolphins and it's +122 and a 6 and 1 record. Blowout the struggling teams and go 2 and 7 against the rest of the schedule. Many of the losses where the offense fell flat, NE, NO, Bills, @ Phi. I am more anti Cowboys than anti Dak. Many points in my post are open to the possibility that Dak could be more successful outside their team culture. The 2019 Cowboy offense was all about racking up points and stats against bad teams and failing against good ones. And, I fear, the anti-Cowboy sentiment does blight this conversation somewhat. No question the 2019 Dallas Cowboys underperformed though. That was a roster that should have gone deep in the post-season IMO.
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said: James Winston led the NFL in passing last year. He is not a good QB. Stat chasing is a fools path to false positive results. Indeed. But Dak hasn't just been a stat monster. He has been a winning Quarterback over his 4 years, and as mentioned by others earlier has a good number of game winning drives to testify to that. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 Just now, GunnerBill said: Indeed. But Dak hasn't just been a stat monster. He has been a winning Quarterback over his 4 years, and as mentioned by others earlier has a good number of game winning drives to testify to that. I dont disagree...I dont think Dak is bad like Jameis. I just think its foolish to use stat only based arguments in any situation, especially year end totals. In Daks best seasons, the Cowboys have won nothing essentially and underperformed. There is something to that...is it Dak...was it just coaching...was it other players...its honestly hard to really say exactly why. But he was the leader of that team...and his team and offense too often didn't show up in the big games or big moments. Thats the divisive part of Dak. Saying he's great only because his stats are better isnt telling the whole story. Can using only stats tell the right story...sure...but they are unreliable as the only measurement to reach that conclusion. As you know...I think Dak is a good QB...but I doubt his championship potential. He is young, can certainly prove those doubts wrong on the field. But he has had a very talented roster around him and still keeps coming up short despite individual statistical success. Same with someone like Cooper for instance. End of season stats look great, but he really had a few monster games to pad those stats and was way way way too often irrelevant in the big moments and big games and wildly inconsistent. Which is why it was ludicrous to me to hand that man a $100M contract at $20M per year. $12-$14M a year...sure, all day. But that kind of money he got is reserved for only the elite WR's. Dak wants elite QB money, but he's been far from elite IMO thus far.
Mister Defense Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, FireChans said: Allen loves Chippewa! @GunnerBill we got a live one! also a big hearty LOL to the bolded. Andy Dalton has always DOMINATED in the postseason. He’s like Brady combined with Montana. Everyone knows this. Nice factsl to back yourself up... Prescott, with MUCH superior talent and a much more committed organization around him--one playoff win. Ignorance is bliss, though, huh? If so, FireChans is livin' the dream... Edited June 3, 2020 by Mister Defense
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, Mister Defense said: Nice factsl to back yourself up... Prescott, with MUCH superior talent and a much more committed organization around him--one playoff win. Ignorance is bliss, though, huh? If so, FireChans is livin' the dream... Andy Dalton has had some good teams. Zero playoff wins. Dak has thrown more TD’s and less INTs than Dalton in the postseason in less games. Dalton’s passer rating in the playoffs is 57. Dak’s is 95. Your opinions are laughably bad, right up to “Josh loves Buffalo and will take much less than market value.” You believe this because he plays for your favorite team. 1
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Which is why it was ludicrous to me to hand that man a $100M contract at $20M per year. $12-$14M a year...sure, all day. But that kind of money he got is reserved for only the elite WR's. Dak wants elite QB money, but he's been far from elite IMO thus far. And I agree with you on the Cooper deal. He got elite money and is not elite. But for Quarterbacks it is different. There is no "franchise but not elite Quarterback" tier when it comes to the market. You either have a franchise quarterback - in which case when their contract comes up you better be ready to put them in the top 2 or 3 "elite" payment tier or you don't. I guarantee none of Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson are signing a deal that doesn't put them in elite territory money wise at the point they sign it unless one of them majorly bombs. It is just the way of the market. It won't right itself unless the NFL intervenes as it did when rookie salaries were out of control. They have just missed the chance to do it in this CBA so we are stuck with this distorted QB market for a while to come in my mind. It isn't ideal but it is what it is.
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 23 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: I dont disagree...I dont think Dak is bad like Jameis. I just think its foolish to use stat only based arguments in any situation, especially year end totals. In Daks best seasons, the Cowboys have won nothing essentially and underperformed. There is something to that...is it Dak...was it just coaching...was it other players...its honestly hard to really say exactly why. But he was the leader of that team...and his team and offense too often didn't show up in the big games or big moments. Thats the divisive part of Dak. Saying he's great only because his stats are better isnt telling the whole story. Can using only stats tell the right story...sure...but they are unreliable as the only measurement to reach that conclusion. As you know...I think Dak is a good QB...but I doubt his championship potential. He is young, can certainly prove those doubts wrong on the field. But he has had a very talented roster around him and still keeps coming up short despite individual statistical success. Same with someone like Cooper for instance. End of season stats look great, but he really had a few monster games to pad those stats and was way way way too often irrelevant in the big moments and big games and wildly inconsistent. Which is why it was ludicrous to me to hand that man a $100M contract at $20M per year. $12-$14M a year...sure, all day. But that kind of money he got is reserved for only the elite WR's. Dak wants elite QB money, but he's been far from elite IMO thus far. It was one year dude. Peyton Manning went 6-10 his fourth year. I have no idea why so many folks are so quick to write off a dude’s entire body of work because of one down TEAM year. If Josh Allen next year goes 12-4 and wins in the playoffs, then the next year we get unlucky and the the team steps back and Allen continues to play EVEN BETTER, and we miss the postseason, we’d say let this bum walk? I don’t think so. 1
GunnerBill Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: It was one year dude. Peyton Manning went 6-10 his fourth year. I have no idea why so many folks are so quick to write off a dude’s entire body of work because of one down TEAM year. In which the team went 8-8 and that player played well for the most part. 2
Billl Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 52 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: James Winston led the NFL in passing last year. He is not a good QB. Stat chasing is a fools path to false positive results. Stats will tell you that Winston threw 30 INTs and Dak threw 11. Cherry picking stats leads to false positive results.
GoBills808 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: In which the team went 8-8 and that player played well for the most part. I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things- 1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers 2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season 3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing 3
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things- 1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers 2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season 3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing I agree with all of this. But there are some folks in this thread acting like Dak is Jay Cutler and that is just completely off base. 1
Billl Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, FireChans said: Andy Dalton has had some good teams. Zero playoff wins. Dak has thrown more TD’s and less INTs than Dalton in the postseason in less games. Dalton’s passer rating in the playoffs is 57. Dak’s is 95. Your opinions are laughably bad, right up to “Josh loves Buffalo and will take much less than market value.” You believe this because he plays for your favorite team. Every kid from Southern California dreams of moving to upstate NY and is willing to pass up tens of millions to do so.
GoBills808 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 1 minute ago, FireChans said: I agree with all of this. But there are some folks in this thread acting like Dak is Jay Cutler and that is just completely off base. I could not think of a worse comparison to Prescott than Jay Cutler 2
Nextmanup Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 On 5/30/2020 at 3:56 PM, 78thealltimegreat said: A guy who writes articles on fansided states the Bills should trade for Dak as he is a significant upgrade over Josh and would push the Bills to the next level and he says the Bills can throw in a few draft picks as well...I often wonder did they watch the Thanksgiving game I think the Cowboys would drive Dak to he airport for that deal Posing that question to this fanbase is like going to St. Peter's during Easter Sunday mass and asking the congregation if they think the Pope should be displaced as the head of the church in favor of Satan. 2
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 41 minutes ago, FireChans said: It was one year dude. Peyton Manning went 6-10 his fourth year. I have no idea why so many folks are so quick to write off a dude’s entire body of work because of one down TEAM year. If Josh Allen next year goes 12-4 and wins in the playoffs, then the next year we get unlucky and the the team steps back and Allen continues to play EVEN BETTER, and we miss the postseason, we’d say let this bum walk? I don’t think so. One year? They have underachieved in Daks best 2 seasons...its more than one year. And where did I condemn him? Dont lump me into some category I am NOT in. I said he was a good QB in the very post you are quoting. You do this a lot dude, you twist statements to mean an extreme that is NOT being said. What I actually said is that he is a good QB but I am not sold on his championship pedigree. He has had a vastly superior roster to most of the NFL the last 2 seasons, and yet they have underachieved. He has big games agaisnt marginal or lower tier talent, but that team is not getting it done often enough agaisnt better competition or big games. I even said, its hard to even answer why right now. This is what I often hate about discussing things with you. You literally claim things are being said that are not being said and its utterly irritating. No disrespect, but I am just being honest about your posting style. 1
Doc Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: I think everyone can acknowledge a couple things- 1. Prescott has shown more capability as an NFL QB than has Allen at this point in their respective careers 2. Both suffered from offensive issues re receivers dropping their passes last season 3. It's reasonable to assume Allen's potential trajectory and conclude that plus his current salary makes such a trade unappealing I disagree with this part.
Alphadawg7 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: And I agree with you on the Cooper deal. He got elite money and is not elite. But for Quarterbacks it is different. There is no "franchise but not elite Quarterback" tier when it comes to the market. You either have a franchise quarterback - in which case when their contract comes up you better be ready to put them in the top 2 or 3 "elite" payment tier or you don't. I guarantee none of Josh Allen, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Lamar Jackson are signing a deal that doesn't put them in elite territory money wise at the point they sign it unless one of them majorly bombs. It is just the way of the market. It won't right itself unless the NFL intervenes as it did when rookie salaries were out of control. They have just missed the chance to do it in this CBA so we are stuck with this distorted QB market for a while to come in my mind. It isn't ideal but it is what it is. I do fully agree with this Gunner, its the nature of the position. Overpay is common and understandable with the QB's. I dont personally subscribe to it, like how I agreed with the Redskins decision to not overpay for Cousins who IMO is a 3rd tier, border line 2nd tier starting QB in that 14 to 18 range of rankings. That doesn't mean Redskins have done a good job rebuilding, even if I agree it was better to rebuild than overpay and stick with mediocracy. But I would have made the same decision, although I just also would have made much better decisions after the fact in how to rebuild that team as most of which they have done I have not been a fan of since. But thats bad leadership in that FO IMO. 40 minutes ago, Billl said: Stats will tell you that Winston threw 30 INTs and Dak threw 11. Cherry picking stats leads to false positive results. Yet Cowboys missed the playoffs, Dak didnt produce enough in big game or against the better teams. So yeah, cherry picking stats also leads to false positive results.
FireChans Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: One year? They have underachieved in Daks best 2 seasons...its more than one year. And where did I condemn him? Dont lump me into some category I am NOT in. I said he was a good QB in the very post you are quoting. You do this a lot dude, you twist statements to mean an extreme that is NOT being said. What I actually said is that he is a good QB but I am not sold on his championship pedigree. He has had a vastly superior roster to most of the NFL the last 2 seasons, and yet they have underachieved. He has big games agaisnt marginal or lower tier talent, but that team is not getting it done often enough agaisnt better competition or big games. I even said, its hard to even answer why right now. This is what I often hate about discussing things with you. You literally claim things are being said that are not being said and its utterly irritating. No disrespect, but I am just being honest about your posting style. What is your definition of “underachieved?” What young QB’s ARE you sold on their championship pedigree? Don’t mention QB’s who have already won Super Bowls. The reason why there is a disconnect is because I guess some of you expected Dak to have won a Super Bowl by now? Or some other lofty standard? Edited June 3, 2020 by FireChans
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