Doc Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, aristocrat said: if he continues the stats yes. but if he comes back to earth hes way overpaid. True. He'll have to continue to put up good numbers. I'm sure Waller is kicking himself for taking that deal seeing what Hooper and Henry got. But that's the risk you take making a deal early, and it applies to both sides. 5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: What was the dropoff due to then----Jimmy G being the better QB? That makes no sense. My point isn't that Lynch would want Waller. It's that he sees what Waller is making for similar production last year with their respective starting QBs. He's not going to want to pay double for that...or even 50% more for the currently highest paid TE. Why would he? Kittle is under contract for another year. No need to back up the truck this year. What if his production continues to decline with Jimmy G? I'm not sure why you keep harping on Kittle's stats with X, Y or Z QB or Waller's salary. They have no bearing on anything. What does is the fact that Kittle has the most yards by a TE in his first 3 seasons than any TE in history, and by a good margin. And he's been paid as a 5th rounder for those 3 years. That's all his agent cares about and if Lynch were silly enough to mention either, his agent would tell him to start them and say that Waller was a fool for taking that deal. And if anything, Waller getting $7.5M after just 5 games into what turned out to be his only good season, while guys like Hooper and Henry getting $10.6M/year despite never having even caught 800 yards in a season, strengthens his argument even more to get Kittle a lot more than they got. But yes, Kittle's under contract for another year. Most likely he'll sit-out until he gets a new deal. Just how much more than $11M/year he gets is the real question, but he's getting paid. And there's a good argument for paying him more like a WR than a TE. Edited June 1, 2020 by Doc 1
billsfan89 Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 49 minutes ago, Billl said: Great TEs are possibly the rarest commodities in the NFL. There were literally 2 in the league last year. Both were in the Super Bowl. And in 2018 and 2017 the Superbowl featured high end tight ends. Gronkowski in 2018 and Gronkowski and Ertz 2017. It's a position that presents a huge advantage. 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 3 hours ago, NewEra said: 2 less games and 29 less targets. The addition of Deebo and Sanders. An improved and successful running game. Many reasons. Which is the exact reason why it doesn’t mean a dam thing that the talks between the two are so far off. It doesn’t mean they aren’t interested or that they don’t think he deserves a massive raise. It’s because they don’t have to right now. He will get paid. Way more than 10.5 per Add in the YPG for the extra 2 games and he still comes up short. And as you point out, with more weapons, Kittle gets fewer touches and thus becomes less valuable as a receiver.... 2 hours ago, Doc said: True. He'll have to continue to put up good numbers. I'm sure Waller is kicking himself for taking that deal seeing what Hooper and Henry got. But that's the risk you take making a deal early, and it applies to both sides. I'm not sure why you keep harping on Kittle's stats with X, Y or Z QB or Waller's salary. They have no bearing on anything. What does is the fact that Kittle has the most yards by a TE in his first 3 seasons than any TE in history, and by a good margin. And he's been paid as a 5th rounder for those 3 years. That's all his agent cares about and if Lynch were silly enough to mention either, his agent would tell him to start them and say that Waller was a fool for taking that deal. And if anything, Waller getting $7.5M after just 5 games into what turned out to be his only good season, while guys like Hooper and Henry getting $10.6M/year despite never having even caught 800 yards in a season, strengthens his argument even more to get Kittle a lot more than they got. But yes, Kittle's under contract for another year. Most likely he'll sit-out until he gets a new deal. Just how much more than $11M/year he gets is the real question, but he's getting paid. And there's a good argument for paying him more like a WR than a TE. Exactly why Lynch will have a wait and see attitude. HE's "paid as a 5th rounder" because he's under his rookie contract. That's how it works., And you keep "harping on" Henry getting 10.6 M a year---he's on the tag getting that money for one year. Why even mention it? Obviously the Chargers don't want to pay him either. Kittle has had 1 great and 1 very good season. 49ers aren't going to pay 50% over current max for that this year. Gronk had only 300 fewer yards (in 3 fewer total games--not a huge margin) in his 1st years.....and more than 3 timers as many TDs ( a whopping 38 v. 12). That scoring threat would absolutely be worth the 50% premium. Kittle isn't that. 2 hours ago, billsfan89 said: And in 2018 and 2017 the Superbowl featured high end tight ends. Gronkowski in 2018 and Gronkowski and Ertz 2017. It's a position that presents a huge advantage. That's the truth. Bills have never understood this.
NewEra Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Add in the YPG for the extra 2 games and he still comes up short. And as you point out, with more weapons, Kittle gets fewer touches and thus becomes less valuable as a receiver.... Exactly why Lynch will have a wait and see attitude. HE's "paid as a 5th rounder" because he's under his rookie contract. That's how it works., And you keep "harping on" Henry getting 10.6 M a year---he's on the tag getting that money for one year. Why even mention it? Obviously the Chargers don't want to pay him either. Kittle has had 1 great and 1 very good season. 49ers aren't going to pay 50% over current max for that this year. Gronk had only 300 fewer yards (in 3 fewer total games--not a huge margin) in his 1st years.....and more than 3 timers as many TDs ( a whopping 38 v. 12). That scoring threat would absolutely be worth the 50% premium. Kittle isn't that. That's the truth. Bills have never understood this. Whatever you say. someone will pay him around 15 mill a year.
Mr. WEO Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, NewEra said: Whatever you say. someone will pay him around 15 mill a year. Anything's possible.
Doc Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Exactly why Lynch will have a wait and see attitude. HE's "paid as a 5th rounder" because he's under his rookie contract. That's how it works., And you keep "harping on" Henry getting 10.6 M a year---he's on the tag getting that money for one year. Why even mention it? Obviously the Chargers don't want to pay him either. Kittle has had 1 great and 1 very good season. 49ers aren't going to pay 50% over current max for that this year. Gronk had only 300 fewer yards (in 3 fewer total games--not a huge margin) in his 1st years.....and more than 3 timers as many TDs ( a whopping 38 v. 12). That scoring threat would absolutely be worth the 50% premium. Kittle isn't that. Kittle's sorely out-produced his 5th round rookie contract. Hence wanting to cash-in ASAP. Maybe even sitting-out if need be. That's how it works as well. Henry got the tag. Unless they workout a long-term deal for less per year, he's getting $10.6M for the year. Not hard to figure out why I keep mentioning him. And great for Goonkowski. The pay for all players has increased dramatically since he entered the league.
Mr. WEO Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Doc said: Kittle's sorely out-produced his 5th round rookie contract. Hence wanting to cash-in ASAP. Maybe even sitting-out if need be. That's how it works as well. Henry got the tag. Unless they workout a long-term deal for less per year, he's getting $10.6M for the year. Not hard to figure out why I keep mentioning him. And great for Goonkowski. The pay for all players has increased dramatically since he entered the league. That's hardly the topic of discussion. The sky is blue as well... The topic is whether Kittle will be paid like a top WR. Henry you keep mentioning as getting "10.6 per year" as though, like Hooper has (and Kittle seeks), he has a new deal. He doesn't. He jus getting the mandatory amount the Chargers have to pay him for one year. He doesn't belong in this discussion---other than as a comparison as to how the 49ers are likely to approach kittle's demands. If Kittle was averaging 12 TDs a year instead of having 12 career TDs, the 49ers would be running to his agent's office to give him more than 15M a year.
NewEra Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: That's hardly the topic of discussion. The sky is blue as well... The topic is whether Kittle will be paid like a top WR. Henry you keep mentioning as getting "10.6 per year" as though, like Hooper has (and Kittle seeks), he has a new deal. He doesn't. He jus getting the mandatory amount the Chargers have to pay him for one year. He doesn't belong in this discussion---other than as a comparison as to how the 49ers are likely to approach kittle's demands. If Kittle was averaging 12 TDs a year instead of having 12 career TDs, the 49ers would be running to his agent's office to give him more than 15M a year. I don’t think that that’s the topic at all. I see the topic is more along the lines of, “how much is “Kittle Deal” going to be?”. I don’t think anyone foresees him getting 20 mill a year (although AJ Hawk said on PMI today that he thought Kittle would get 20 million a year). You’ve stated that lynch isn’t going to pay him 15-16 mill a year. Just wait and see. Not much else to argue about.
Mr. WEO Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, NewEra said: I don’t think that that’s the topic at all. I see the topic is more along the lines of, “how much is “Kittle Deal” going to be?”. I don’t think anyone foresees him getting 20 mill a year (although AJ Hawk said on PMI today that he thought Kittle would get 20 million a year). You’ve stated that lynch isn’t going to pay him 15-16 mill a year. Just wait and see. Not much else to argue about. It is, actually. Scroll back.
Doc Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: That's hardly the topic of discussion. The sky is blue as well... The topic is whether Kittle will be paid like a top WR. Henry you keep mentioning as getting "10.6 per year" as though, like Hooper has (and Kittle seeks), he has a new deal. He doesn't. He jus getting the mandatory amount the Chargers have to pay him for one year. He doesn't belong in this discussion---other than as a comparison as to how the 49ers are likely to approach kittle's demands. If Kittle was averaging 12 TDs a year instead of having 12 career TDs, the 49ers would be running to his agent's office to give him more than 15M a year. Actually, it's THE topic of discussion. Most players, even if 1sts round picks, will look to get huge new deals if they become one of the best at their positions within the 1st 3 seasons.
NewEra Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: It is, actually. Scroll back. It’s has been discussed. Being paid like the top WR in the league isn’t the topic imo
Mr. WEO Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Doc said: Actually, it's THE topic of discussion. Most players, even if 1sts round picks, will look to get huge new deals if they become one of the best at their positions within the 1st 3 seasons. No one is arguing that Kittle isn't sorely outproducing 5th round rookie contract"....so, again, why even mention this? No one is saying otherwise, so it's not the topic anyone is discussing, doc. No one's arguing against the bolded part of this post above either, Dr. Strawman. Just now, NewEra said: It’s has been discussed. Being paid like the top WR in the league isn’t the topic imo It was what I was responding to several pages ago (should he paid like a top WR, not a TE--or as a "hybrid", which is a nonentity). Maybe you are discussing something else.
billsfan89 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: Add in the YPG for the extra 2 games and he still comes up short. And as you point out, with more weapons, Kittle gets fewer touches and thus becomes less valuable as a receiver.... Exactly why Lynch will have a wait and see attitude. HE's "paid as a 5th rounder" because he's under his rookie contract. That's how it works., And you keep "harping on" Henry getting 10.6 M a year---he's on the tag getting that money for one year. Why even mention it? Obviously the Chargers don't want to pay him either. Kittle has had 1 great and 1 very good season. 49ers aren't going to pay 50% over current max for that this year. Gronk had only 300 fewer yards (in 3 fewer total games--not a huge margin) in his 1st years.....and more than 3 timers as many TDs ( a whopping 38 v. 12). That scoring threat would absolutely be worth the 50% premium. Kittle isn't that. Kittle didn't have prime Tom Brady throwing to him like Gronk did. Jimmy G was hurt in 2018 when he put up monster numbers and even in 2019 I wouldn't exactly call Jimmy G a world beater and Kittle put up an elite season. So the TD numbers are a bit circumstantial and not relevant to his ability. Toss in that like Gronk Kittle is dam good blocker and I think Kittle has solidified himself as an elite TE these past two seasons (and he wasn't too shabby for a rookie.) I think if Kittle wants a deal bordering on 20 million per-season with a hefty guarantee I think he has to put up another very good to great season and fully leverage his status. But the 49ers should be willing to offer a deal above 15 million if Kittle doesn't want to take the injury risk. So while I get Lynch waiting if Kittle won't accept a deal closer to 15 million than 20 million but Lynch should be willing to offer a max extension around the 15 million aav range. Let Kittle decide his level of risk but certainly show they are willing to take care of him he just won't get all that he wants if he takes the sure thing early.
Mr. WEO Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, billsfan89 said: Kittle didn't have prime Tom Brady throwing to him like Gronk did. Jimmy G was hurt in 2018 when he put up monster numbers and even in 2019 I wouldn't exactly call Jimmy G a world beater and Kittle put up an elite season. So the TD numbers are a bit circumstantial and not relevant to his ability. Toss in that like Gronk Kittle is dam good blocker and I think Kittle has solidified himself as an elite TE these past two seasons (and he wasn't too shabby for a rookie.) I think if Kittle wants a deal bordering on 20 million per-season with a hefty guarantee I think he has to put up another very good to great season and fully leverage his status. But the 49ers should be willing to offer a deal above 15 million if Kittle doesn't want to take the injury risk. So while I get Lynch waiting if Kittle won't accept a deal closer to 15 million than 20 million but Lynch should be willing to offer a max extension around the 15 million aav range. Let Kittle decide his level of risk but certainly show they are willing to take care of him he just won't get all that he wants if he takes the sure thing early. Again, no one is saying Kittle isn't an elite TE.... 15 million would blow out the current TE market by 50%. There is NO position in the NFL where a player has been offered 50% more than the previously (and recently signed) highest paid player at that position. Why would Lynch want to do that--especially now?
billsfan89 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Again, no one is saying Kittle isn't an elite TE.... 15 million would blow out the current TE market by 50%. There is NO position in the NFL where a player has been offered 50% more than the previously (and recently signed) highest paid player at that position. Why would Lynch want to do that--especially now? Because if Kittle hits the open market in 2021 after posting another strong season some other team will easily offer an elite TE close to 20 million per-year. Travis Kelce being underpaid and there not being another elite TE on the market doesn't deflate Kittle's market. Kittle is a much better TE than Hooper who got 10 million aav. So if I am Lynch I offer about 15 million as my offer as a means to get Kittle under his market value. I don't offer 18+ million because that's his best range, but 15ish million offers him security and you a discount. 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 1 minute ago, billsfan89 said: Because if Kittle hits the open market in 2021 after posting another strong season some other team will easily offer an elite TE close to 20 million per-year. Travis Kelce being underpaid and there not being another elite TE on the market doesn't deflate Kittle's market. Kittle is a much better TE than Hooper who got 10 million aav. So if I am Lynch I offer about 15 million as my offer as a means to get Kittle under his market value. I don't offer 18+ million because that's his best range, but 15ish million offers him security and you a discount. lol no one is offering a TE 20M next year. Just stop with that. Michael Thomas, an actual elite WR wasn’t offered that. these takes.....so much heat!!
Doc Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 31 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: No one is arguing that Kittle isn't sorely outproducing 5th round rookie contract"....so, again, why even mention this? No one is saying otherwise, so it's not the topic anyone is discussing, doc. No one's arguing against the bolded part of this post above either, Dr. Strawman. And all you're saying, repeatedly, is that Lynch wants to pay Kittle as little as he possibly possible can (yeah, ya think?) using weak arguments as to why he shouldn't have to give him a decent pay raise over the currently highest-paid TEs. Waller and Goon don't amount to a hill of beans when Henry and Hooper are making $10.5M and neither has broken 787 yards in a season yet, much less almost 1,400. Therefore Kittle has a claim to being paid a lot more than them. Lynch doesn't have to pay it. In which case Kittle can sit out or play out his contract and then the 49'ers can franchise him and sit out again and so on.
Mr. WEO Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, Doc said: And all you're saying, repeatedly, is that Lynch wants to pay Kittle as little as he possibly possible can (yeah, ya think?) using weak arguments as to why he shouldn't have to give him a decent pay raise over the currently highest-paid TEs. Waller and Goon don't amount to a hill of beans when Henry and Hooper are making $10.5M and neither has broken 787 yards in a season yet, much less almost 1,400. Therefore Kittle has a claim to being paid a lot more than them. Lynch doesn't have to pay it. In which case Kittle can sit out or play out his contract and then the 49'ers can franchise him and sit out again and so on. As I said.... None of what you say adds up to an unprecedented NFL position bump of 50% in a year...that's not "a decent pay raise" anywhere, doc.
Doc Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: As I said.... None of what you say adds up to an unprecedented NFL position bump of 50% in a year...that's not "a decent pay raise" anywhere, doc. If you/Lynch is worried about the position bump, just split the difference for TE and WR and pay him that, citing a special circumstance.
Mr. WEO Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Doc said: If you/Lynch is worried about the position bump, just split the difference for TE and WR and pay him that, citing a special circumstance. he knows he doesn't have to
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