billsfan89 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 Just now, Mr. WEO said: I agree with this 100%. Imagine him in Buffalo?! Instead we're all hoping the best TE on the team can catch more and drop less. I just think that roster in SF is now geared to go heavy on the pass. Tons of guys. Kittle won't have the same utility for this team this yer---despite his budding greatness. Who is taking away targets from Kittle? Emmanuel Sanders isn't there anymore and Goodwin was traded. The only major piece added in place of those two was their first round pick. I just don't see Kittle's targets declining. DeBo isn't going to soak that many more targets than what he got in 2019 and receivers often take time to come on so I don't see a rookie getting more targets than what Emmanuel Sanders got. 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 33 minutes ago, Doc said: The 49'ers didn't have to throw much in the playoff games because they limited the Vikings to 10 points total, and the Packers to 7 points through 3 quarters while scoring 37, mostly thanks to the ground game. No need to risk throwing the ball. The SB was a different story. Again I remember distinctly that on 2 separate drives during that fateful 6.5 minute stretch that Kittle was wide open for big gainers and JG didn't look his way. Could very well have been the difference in the outcome. In any case, thinking they can run the ball and get back to the SB isn't a sound game plan. Hence the reason they drafted a WR in the 1st round. And after all, they did get 75 yards/game from Kittle during the regular season so what happened in the playoffs obviously doesn't tell the whole story. What's more interesting is your complaints about the Bills not prioritizing the TE position...and then slagging a great TE like Kittle. Which is it? Hence the decreasing value of a top receiving TE on that team. They essentially won (almost a SB) with him ghosting the playoffs. Which is what? The Bills have abused the position for their history. That fact obviously has nothing to do with the discussion of whether a team or any team should pay a guy with 2 1000+ years like a top WR. Not sure what your point is there. I would have Kittles on the team in a heartbeat. But there's nlo WAY the Bills FO would pay him 15-18+M. Pretty simple concepts doc... 2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Who is taking away targets from Kittle? Emmanuel Sanders isn't there anymore and Goodwin was traded. The only major piece added in place of those two was their first round pick. I just don't see Kittle's targets declining. DeBo isn't going to soak that many more targets than what he got in 2019 and receivers often take time to come on so I don't see a rookie getting more targets than what Emmanuel Sanders got. I already covered this. Scroll up. They are getting back two guys from IR plus they drafted a stud WR in Aiuyuk--who many are comparing to Sanders. Logic already told you the got rid of Sanders because they felt they didn't need him anymore---despite him being very productive and only 1 year left on a cheap contract.
Doc Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Hence the decreasing value of a top receiving TE on that team. They essentially won (almost a SB) with him ghosting the playoffs. Which is what? The Bills have abused the position for their history. That fact obviously has nothing to do with the discussion of whether a team or any team should pay a guy with 2 1000+ years like a top WR. Not sure what your point is there. I would have Kittles on the team in a heartbeat. But there's nlo WAY the Bills FO would pay him 15-18+M. Pretty simple concepts doc... You don't know what the Bills FO would pay him if he were on the open market. Why you pretend you do is anyone's guess. And the playoffs proved nothing other than the 49'ers were able to run against those 2 teams. It's not a strategy any sane team would use going forward.
Mike in Horseheads Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 He should check with former NBA player Kerry Kittle (s)
billsfan89 Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 40 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I already covered this. Scroll up. They are getting back two guys from IR plus they drafted a stud WR in Aiuyuk--who many are comparing to Sanders. Logic already told you the got rid of Sanders because they felt they didn't need him anymore---despite him being very productive and only 1 year left on a cheap contract. They didn't let Sanders go, Sanders was a free agent and on the last year of his deal. It wasn't like Sanders had another year on his deal and they cut him. Sanders was a cap casualty not necessarily a we are so loaded at this position that we can let people go. The fact that they had to draft Aiuyuk high up shows you that they weren't really that sold on the two players that were coming off IR. Kittle's targets aren't going anywhere. I don't really think Jalen Hud a player coming off of a broken back and wasn't able to get on the field at all and Kendrick Bourne a player who has shown some flashes but hasn't caught on despite being healthy are going to take away any significant targets from Kittle. I think you are vastly overrating the 49ers receiving core which is mostly Debo Samuel, a 1st round pick in Aiuyuk and a bunch of unproven players. Kittle will be fine. 1
NewEra Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I agree with this 100%. Imagine him in Buffalo?! Instead we're all hoping the best TE on the team can catch more and drop less. I just think that roster in SF is now geared to go heavy on the pass. Tons of guys. Kittle won't have the same utility for this team this yer---despite his budding greatness. yeah, I’m not thrilled with our TEs. I love Knox and expect improvement. Kroft, meh. Sweeney, I have more hope for than Kroft, but a similarly meh upside. Smith, bleh. Croom, lol. I was really hoping we’d add someone to compete with Knox for starting TE. He’s ideally a #2 at this stage based on his play last season. The upside is incredible. The hands were scary. I hear ya on them not wanting to pay him. I expect a franchise tag situation. How he wants to play that out will play into what he eventually gets paid. While I feel the Niners may pass a little more, i feel the strength of their offense is Shanahans play calling. Which is rooted in the run. From game to game, it may change more than it used to, but I see Kittles ability to dominate as a run blocker and as a receiver (and in the locker room and on tv we could go on) as being even more important to shanahan than to other teams.
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 40 minutes ago, Doc said: You don't know what the Bills FO would pay him if he were on the open market. Why you pretend you do is anyone's guess. And the playoffs proved nothing other than the 49'ers were able to run against those 2 teams. It's not a strategy any sane team would use going forward. Yes. Proven successful strategies based on a teams strengths would never, in a sane way, be used by any team going forward! The LOLs write themselves... And it was all 3 teams in the playoffs... There is no chance (zero point zero) that the Bills would pay that for a TE.
NewEra Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: They didn't let Sanders go, Sanders was a free agent and on the last year of his deal. It wasn't like Sanders had another year on his deal and they cut him. Sanders was a cap casualty not necessarily a we are so loaded at this position that we can let people go. The fact that they had to draft Aiuyuk high up shows you that they weren't really that sold on the two players that were coming off IR. Kittle's targets aren't going anywhere. I don't really think Jalen Hud a player coming off of a broken back and wasn't able to get on the field at all and Kendrick Bourne a player who has shown some flashes but hasn't caught on despite being healthy are going to take away any significant targets from Kittle. I think you are vastly overrating the 49ers receiving core which is mostly Debo Samuel, a 1st round pick in Aiuyuk and a bunch of unproven players. Kittle will be fine. I think you’re underestimating Hurd, Aiyuk, Bourne and the RBs...especially with shanahan calling plays. I’m eager to see if Jauan Jennings stick in the slot. He’s tough. I’m one of the biggest haters on players with injury history, but if he’s healthy, I think Hurd is going to be a huge addition. Aiyuk is electric with the ball in his hands. Paired with Deebo. Kittle at TE and great speed at RB. I agree with a lot of what you’ve said in this thread but I think SF has a pretty solid group of playmakers. Adding Kittle to the mix just makes them all so much better 1
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 11 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: They didn't let Sanders go, Sanders was a free agent and on the last year of his deal. It wasn't like Sanders had another year on his deal and they cut him. Sanders was a cap casualty not necessarily a we are so loaded at this position that we can let people go. The fact that they had to draft Aiuyuk high up shows you that they weren't really that sold on the two players that were coming off IR. Kittle's targets aren't going anywhere. I don't really think Jalen Hud a player coming off of a broken back and wasn't able to get on the field at all and Kendrick Bourne a player who has shown some flashes but hasn't caught on despite being healthy are going to take away any significant targets from Kittle. I think you are vastly overrating the 49ers receiving core which is mostly Debo Samuel, a 1st round pick in Aiuyuk and a bunch of unproven players. Kittle will be fine. No. It shows young they were so impressed with Deebo walking onto the building and catching 800 was rookie that they would drat another absolute stud at WR and plug him in too. Kitlle's targets dropped 12%-----Just with the addition of Samuel and Deebo. No add 3 more WR. I'm sure Kittle will be fine.. But it's nuts to pretend that all these WRs will not have an impact on his production this season. His biggest season was with 2 backups dumping off passes to him. The big TE is often the inexperienced QB's best friend. 14 minutes ago, NewEra said: yeah, I’m not thrilled with our TEs. I love Knox and expect improvement. Kroft, meh. Sweeney, I have more hope for than Kroft, but a similarly meh upside. Smith, bleh. Croom, lol. I was really hoping we’d add someone to compete with Knox for starting TE. He’s ideally a #2 at this stage based on his play last season. The upside is incredible. The hands were scary. I hear ya on them not wanting to pay him. I expect a franchise tag situation. How he wants to play that out will play into what he eventually gets paid. While I feel the Niners may pass a little more, i feel the strength of their offense is Shanahans play calling. Which is rooted in the run. From game to game, it may change more than it used to, but I see Kittles ability to dominate as a run blocker and as a receiver (and in the locker room and on tv we could go on) as being even more important to shanahan than to other teams. I agree---like his old man, who made short term stars out of a string of flash in the pan RBs. But I have to think he's drooling over the cheap young talent he now has at WR.
NewEra Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: No. It shows young they were so impressed with Deebo walking onto the building and catching 800 was rookie that they would drat another absolute stud at WR and plug him in too. Kitlle's targets dropped 12%-----Just with the addition of Samuel and Deebo. No add 3 more WR. I'm sure Kittle will be fine.. But it's nuts to pretend that all these WRs will not have an impact on his production this season. His biggest season was with 2 backups dumping off passes to him. The big TE is often the inexperienced QB's best friend. I agree---like his old man, who made short term stars out of a string of flash in the pan RBs. But I have to think he's drooling over the cheap young talent he now has at WR. I think you meant to say sanders and Deebo? Then they lost sanders and replaced him with Aiyuk. So they’re even. Then Hurd returning +1. I don’t see how that’s adding 3 more unless you’re including Travis Benjamin and Jennings. shanahans running game dominated with a guy that no one wanted mixed in with a handful of Jags. Coleman is a nice back but his contract says it all. They know they messed up paying McKinnon. I can’t see them paying another rb much more than what they’re paying Coleman. More money for kittle
Doc Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: Yes. Proven successful strategies based on a teams strengths would never, in a sane way, be used by any team going forward! The LOLs write themselves... And it was all 3 teams in the playoffs... There is no chance (zero point zero) that the Bills would pay that for a TE. A proven successful strategy...based on (actually) 2 games? Oh WEO, why do you do this to yourself? It's amazing that someone can cry about the lack of a TE...and then claim that a generational one is somehow useless on his own team because he can't bear to admit that he's worth a lot more than the inferior TEs (whose teams didn't even make the playoffs) who just got paid. Edited June 4, 2020 by Doc
billsfan89 Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: No. It shows young they were so impressed with Deebo walking onto the building and catching 800 was rookie that they would drat another absolute stud at WR and plug him in too. Kitlle's targets dropped 12%-----Just with the addition of Samuel and Deebo. No add 3 more WR. You keep saying "Add 3 more WR" who are these great WR's they are adding? I think you are massively overrating these WR's. It would be a coo for the Niners to get Sanders like production out of their first round pick in year one (For every Deebo there are many who don't make an immediate impact.) You are projecting every single WR on the Niners roster to have seasons way better than they have ever had on an optimist evaluation. From my perspective the Niners swapped Sanders with a 1st round WR and not much else was added. That's not exactly a huge influx of targets taken away from Kittle. I also think that the Niners having an elite defense and running out the clock late is what mostly deflated his stats from his insane 2018 stats not Jimmy G or any other factor. Whereas in 2018 the Niners were playing from behind so often. I am not so sure the Niners defense will be as strong as it was in the first 10-11 weeks of the 2019 season. I don't think it will be bad but I don't think it will be an all time great defense for two thirds of the season. If Kittle is healthy he will get at worst close to 1,000 yards and a healthy amount of receptions and TD's. The Niners defense regressing and Jimmy G playing with Kittle for a third season will at the very least compensate for any uptick in receiver targets.
Mr. WEO Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 12 hours ago, billsfan89 said: You keep saying "Add 3 more WR" who are these great WR's they are adding? I think you are massively overrating these WR's. It would be a coo for the Niners to get Sanders like production out of their first round pick in year one (For every Deebo there are many who don't make an immediate impact.) You are projecting every single WR on the Niners roster to have seasons way better than they have ever had on an optimist evaluation. From my perspective the Niners swapped Sanders with a 1st round WR and not much else was added. That's not exactly a huge influx of targets taken away from Kittle. I also think that the Niners having an elite defense and running out the clock late is what mostly deflated his stats from his insane 2018 stats not Jimmy G or any other factor. Whereas in 2018 the Niners were playing from behind so often. I am not so sure the Niners defense will be as strong as it was in the first 10-11 weeks of the 2019 season. I don't think it will be bad but I don't think it will be an all time great defense for two thirds of the season. If Kittle is healthy he will get at worst close to 1,000 yards and a healthy amount of receptions and TD's. The Niners defense regressing and Jimmy G playing with Kittle for a third season will at the very least compensate for any uptick in receiver targets. It seems obvious by there actions that the SF FO and coaching staff believe this, not me. I'm just trying to help you understand their position as they have shown us thus far. They have 2 injured guys coming back and added another stud rookie WR. Look it up. Why didn't they try to keep Sanders? Here's what was written in SI before the draft: "What gets forgotten about the trade for Sanders was that he was mainly brought in because of Taylor and Hurd being placed on injured reserve. That made the receiver position insanely weak. Relying on rookie Deebo Samuel was not ideal at the time and the 49ers were in the middle of a Super Bowl run. They needed to make a move and got great value in trading for Sanders. The return of Taylor and Hurd allotted the 49ers a sufficient comfort level along with the No. 13 pick. It also made it convincing to not go after him due to the limited salary-cap space. Sanders' departure was to be expected even before the Buckner trade. He was just used a piece to help propel the 49ers' passing game. Now that he is headed to New Orleans the only question remains: was he worth the trade? Absolutely. The 49ers essentially only gave up their third-round pick to the Broncos. It's a loss that they are feeling now that the draft is a month away. Nevertheless, the 49ers made the right decision in trading for him at a time where the wide receiver position was severely lacking. Adding him to the roster factored into the 49ers' Super Bowl appearance, so the trade was ultimately worth it. Sanders will be a missed member in the locker room, but these young receivers that he oversaw are not novices anymore. 2020 should bring about intrigue from the position, especially if the Niners use pick No. 13 to take a touted prospected." Why do you assume the 49ers D will "regress" in the second half of the season? They didn't last season...
Mr. WEO Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Doc said: A proven successful strategy...based on (actually) 2 games? Oh WEO, why do you do this to yourself? It's amazing that someone can cry about the lack of a TE...and then claim that a generational one is somehow useless on his own team because he can't bear to admit that he's worth a lot more than the inferior TEs (whose teams didn't even make the playoffs) who just got paid. Oh I freely admit he's better than those guys--because it's obvious. But that has nothing to do with the likelihood a team will set such a precedent for the TE position. I'll again refocus you--the discussion is whether he will get paid as a top WR. I don't believe the 49ers will pay him that. And despite their glaring need at the position, and despite Kittle's "generational" talent, neither would the Bills. None of this is as hard ("amazing"?) to understand as you are pretending to make it. Edited June 4, 2020 by Mr. WEO
Mr. WEO Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 14 hours ago, NewEra said: I think you meant to say sanders and Deebo? Then they lost sanders and replaced him with Aiyuk. So they’re even. Then Hurd returning +1. I don’t see how that’s adding 3 more unless you’re including Travis Benjamin and Jennings. shanahans running game dominated with a guy that no one wanted mixed in with a handful of Jags. Coleman is a nice back but his contract says it all. They know they messed up paying McKinnon. I can’t see them paying another rb much more than what they’re paying Coleman. More money for kittle Aiyuk, Hurd and Trent Taylor (both off IR). At RB, Mostert may be a career reborn or a flash in the pan, who knows. Coleman and McKinnon contracts aren't great, but it's not a bad backfield altogether.
NewEra Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: Aiyuk, Hurd and Trent Taylor (both off IR). At RB, Mostert may be a career reborn or a flash in the pan, who knows. Coleman and McKinnon contracts aren't great, but it's not a bad backfield altogether. Add Aiyuk. Minus sanders. = 0 add Hurd and Taylor = +2 not 3. Stop making stuff up Odds are, the Niners won’t be paying mostert, Coleman and mckinnon beyond their current contracts. Mckinnon only got that stupid contract because the Niners had stupid money at the time. Coleman’s is making 5 mill this year then will take less or be gone. Mostert is making around 3 mill a year for the next 2 years. He’ll then follow Coleman unless he’s ok making 3 mill a year. 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Oh I freely admit he's better than those guys--because it's obvious. But that has nothing to do with the likelihood a team will set such a precedent for the TE position. I'll again refocus you--the discussion is whether he will get paid as a top WR. I don't believe the 49ers will pay him that. And despite their glaring need at the position, and despite Kittle's "generational" talent, neither would the Bills. None of this is as hard ("amazing"?) to understand as you are pretending to make it. Kittle looking for a “Kittle deal”. I see this discussion being about Kittle resetting the TE market. Will he get 15+ mill a year? The Niners and bills may not pay him that much. Last I heard, the Niners and the Bills weren’t the only teams in the nfl. it’s about whether or not Kittle can bring the top tier tight ends into the same contract stratosphere as the other skill positions.
billsfan89 Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: It seems obvious by there actions that the SF FO and coaching staff believe this, not me. I'm just trying to help you understand their position as they have shown us thus far. They have 2 injured guys coming back and added another stud rookie WR. Look it up. Why didn't they try to keep Sanders? Here's what was written in SI before the draft: "What gets forgotten about the trade for Sanders was that he was mainly brought in because of Taylor and Hurd being placed on injured reserve. That made the receiver position insanely weak. Relying on rookie Deebo Samuel was not ideal at the time and the 49ers were in the middle of a Super Bowl run. They needed to make a move and got great value in trading for Sanders. The return of Taylor and Hurd allotted the 49ers a sufficient comfort level along with the No. 13 pick. It also made it convincing to not go after him due to the limited salary-cap space. Sanders' departure was to be expected even before the Buckner trade. He was just used a piece to help propel the 49ers' passing game. Now that he is headed to New Orleans the only question remains: was he worth the trade? Absolutely. The 49ers essentially only gave up their third-round pick to the Broncos. It's a loss that they are feeling now that the draft is a month away. Nevertheless, the 49ers made the right decision in trading for him at a time where the wide receiver position was severely lacking. Adding him to the roster factored into the 49ers' Super Bowl appearance, so the trade was ultimately worth it. Sanders will be a missed member in the locker room, but these young receivers that he oversaw are not novices anymore. 2020 should bring about intrigue from the position, especially if the Niners use pick No. 13 to take a touted prospected." Why do you assume the 49ers D will "regress" in the second half of the season? They didn't last season... I don't know why you seem to think that Taylor and Hurd two players coming off of serious injuries and players who have 0 receptions in the previous season are such massive candidates to take away receptions from one of the game’s best tight ends? You’re putting a lot on faith for those two players to both recover from injury and have production that they have never even come close to before. I get thinking that the team’s first round pick could have an impact but will that impact be greater than what Sanders brought last season (extrapolated per game?) I am not so sure. I think you are projecting out the most optimistic scenario for all 3 of those receivers even despite the fact that one is a rookie and the other two have never been that productive and are coming off of serious injuries. As for the Niners defense they most definitely did fall off towards the final 5 games of the season. They gave up from week 11 on, 26, 8, 20, 46, 29, 31, and 21 points. With their worst performance being the 29 they gave up to Atlanta resulting in a loss that could have cost them home field advantage had they not beat the Seahawks in week 17 in a close game. Compare that to their other 9 games and you see a sharp decline from what they did in their first nine games. I think with the loss of Buckner and some natural regression in their older players they regress from a top defense in the league to a good defense, which should open up more opportunities for their passing game. In fact Kittle had about the same yards in his first 8 games as he did in the last 6 games. Which meant as the defense regressed his yards and receptions per game went up.
Mr. WEO Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 49 minutes ago, NewEra said: Add Aiyuk. Minus sanders. = 0 add Hurd and Taylor = +2 not 3. Stop making stuff up Odds are, the Niners won’t be paying mostert, Coleman and mckinnon beyond their current contracts. Mckinnon only got that stupid contract because the Niners had stupid money at the time. Coleman’s is making 5 mill this year then will take less or be gone. Mostert is making around 3 mill a year for the next 2 years. He’ll then follow Coleman unless he’s ok making 3 mill a year. Kittle looking for a “Kittle deal”. I see this discussion being about Kittle resetting the TE market. Will he get 15+ mill a year? The Niners and bills may not pay him that much. Last I heard, the Niners and the Bills weren’t the only teams in the nfl. it’s about whether or not Kittle can bring the top tier tight ends into the same contract stratosphere as the other skill positions. They are getting 2 guys back and drafted 2 WR (Juan Jennings is a hidden gem) and another TE. So I was wrong--it's 5, "not 3". 49ers no longer have "stupid money", so where will they get "Kittle deal" money?. 5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: I don't know why you seem to think that Taylor and Hurd two players coming off of serious injuries and players who have 0 receptions in the previous season are such massive candidates to take away receptions from one of the game’s best tight ends? You’re putting a lot on faith for those two players to both recover from injury and have production that they have never even come close to before. I get thinking that the team’s first round pick could have an impact but will that impact be greater than what Sanders brought last season (extrapolated per game?) I am not so sure. I think you are projecting out the most optimistic scenario for all 3 of those receivers even despite the fact that one is a rookie and the other two have never been that productive and are coming off of serious injuries. As for the Niners defense they most definitely did fall off towards the final 5 games of the season. They gave up from week 11 on, 26, 8, 20, 46, 29, 31, and 21 points. With their worst performance being the 29 they gave up to Atlanta resulting in a loss that could have cost them home field advantage had they not beat the Seahawks in week 17 in a close game. Compare that to their other 9 games and you see a sharp decline from what they did in their first nine games. I think with the loss of Buckner and some natural regression in their older players they regress from a top defense in the league to a good defense, which should open up more opportunities for their passing game. In fact Kittle had about the same yards in his first 8 games as he did in the last 6 games. Which meant as the defense regressed his yards and receptions per game went up. Again (and again)--it's not what I think that matters: they didn't re-sign Sanders because they had these guys coming back and were going to draft a WR on day 1. Shanahan seems confident that all these guys are massive candidates to get more targets. Go yell at him how he's wrong if thinks so. That D rolled through the playoffs until they choked with 6 minutes to go in the season.
billsfan89 Posted June 4, 2020 Posted June 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Again (and again)--it's not what I think that matters: they didn't re-sign Sanders because they had these guys coming back and were going to draft a WR on day 1. Shanahan seems confident that all these guys are massive candidates to get more targets. Go yell at him how he's wrong if thinks so. That D rolled through the playoffs until they choked with 6 minutes to go in the season. The 49ers were up against the cap, that’s why they didn’t resign Sanders. Of course they are going to say hey we like what we have and not we are kind of ***** due to the cap. If they were so confident in Taylor and Hurd they wouldn’t have drafted a receiver in round 1 esp in a deep receiver class. I don't buy that two players coming off of IR who weren't productive to begin with are suddenly taking away massive targets from Kittle. That's coach speak you aren't seeing through. As for the defense yes they did rebound in the playoffs but I am projecting regression at least modestly. I still think they will be a top 10 defense just not a top 3 defense. One simply due to the loss of Bucker and two due to other players either aging or not having top seasons again. Their defense had a lot of factors go right for them in 2019 and in 2020 I suspect some players will regress due to age or other factors and the loss of Bucker will hurt. If the defense regresses a little bit they will be passing more overall.
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