Dan Orlovsky just did AFCE QB rankings on ESPN. Had Allen at #3!

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

52 minutes ago, Billl said:

This is patently untrue.

Josh’s ratings in those games were 62.6, 65.2, and 102.7.  
Minshew’s ratings in his last 3 games were 102.8, 72.1, and 106.2.

 

 You're completely moving the goal posts here. There was nothing disingenuous in how I presented the original stats. I simply split each of Allen's two seasons into halves. I did the same for Minshew and the same for Darnold in another thread. 

 

Do you feel three games is a proper samples size over 8 or or 7 games presented in my comparison?

 

Wouldn't you say there is a dramatic difference in degree of difficulty in the three games you reference for Allen and Minshew?

 

Allen:

vs. Baltimore

@ Pittsburgh

@ New England

 

Minshew:

@ Oakland

@ Atlanta

vs. Indianapolis.

 

All three games for Allen are against top 5 ranked defenses who's teams were playing for the playoffs or seeding.

 

The three defenses Minshew faced were ranked 16th, 19th and 20th. Two of the three teams were not playing for anything.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

19 hours ago, Billl said:

Lot of posters here don’t want to admit it, but he was really good.  Daniel Jones is another example.  His team was horrible, but he showed a lot.  Just to show how bad his team was, they went 1-2 in games were Jones put up these combined numbers:  13 TDs, 0 INTs, 982 yards passing.  But he didn’t win enough games, so he sucks...

Jones had a few WOW games. No doubt. 

 

He's not without his own issues. He's got to clean up his fumbling issues. 18 fumbles in 12 starts. He had five combined fumbles in the two one score losses you reference.  Allen's known for fumbling but Jones rookie year makes Allen  look like Drew Brees or Peyton Manning when it comes to ball security in comparison.

 

For the record I'm fine if someone prefers Jones over Allen. You can't overlook the great games Jones had on a pretty bad team. 

 

 

[Doc]

31 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

 You're completely moving the goal posts here. There was nothing disingenuous in how I presented the original stats. I simply split each of Allen's two seasons into halves. I did the same for Minshew and the same for Darnold in another thread. 

 

Do you feel three games is a proper samples size over 8 or or 7 games presented in my comparison?

 

Wouldn't you say there is a dramatic difference in degree of difficulty in the three games you reference for Allen and Minshew?

 

Allen:

vs. Baltimore

@ Pittsburgh

@ New England

 

Minshew:

@ Oakland

@ Atlanta

vs. Indianapolis.

 

All three games for Allen are against top 5 ranked defenses who's teams were playing for the playoffs or seeding.

 

The three defenses Minshew faced were ranked 16th, 19th and 20th. Two of the three teams were not playing for anything.

 

Actually none of the 3 teams Minshew faced had anything to play for as they were all out of the playoffs by the time he faced them.

[JetsFan20]

17 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Jones had a few WOW games. No doubt. 

 

He's not without his own issues. He's got to clean up his fumbling issues. 18 fumbles in 12 starts. He had five combined fumbles in the two one score losses you reference.  Allen's known for fumbling but Jones rookie year makes Allen  look like Drew Brees or Peyton Manning when it comes to ball security in comparison.

 

For the record I'm fine if someone prefers Jones over Allen. You can't overlook the great games Jones had on a pretty bad team. 

 

 

 

I’ve watched:

 

4 years of Mark Sanchez 

2 years of Geno Smith 

2 years of Sam Darnold 

 

3 guys, 8 seasons, and bottom 5 QB play each year. 
 

Fans try so hard to prop their guy up, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck-it’s not an eagle, it’s a duck. 
 

Bills/Jets/Giants fans can hope and pray, but if I’m a betting man all three guys aren’t going to be future top 10 QBs based on what I’ve seen.

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

11 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Actually none of the 3 teams Minshew faced had anything to play for as they were all out of the playoffs by the time he faced them.

 

I'm fairly certain the Raiders playoff hopes were still alive. Even after they lost to the Jaguars they were still alive i think.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, JetsFan20 said:

Fans try so hard to prop their guy up, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck-it’s not an eagle, it’s a duck. 

 

I can't argue with that.

 

I never liked EJ Manuel. But i was all in on Fitzpartick during his run in 2011 or 2012  with the Bills. And I loved Tyrod after his first season with the Bills.

 

Darnold has had such a screwed up situation on a pretty bad overall team you have to hold out hope for him still.

 

Allen was on a bad offense two years ago but last years offensive personnel was much better. He was super raw coming out so again, holding out hope that he just keeps developing as he has been.

[Nextmanup]

On 5/27/2020 at 10:42 AM, buffaloboyinATL said:

I know these rankings don't mean anything at all, but until the season starts, we have nothing better to talk about.  This is ridiculous. He ranked Darnold number 1, Tua at #2! then Allen and then Stidham.  How the hell can you rank Tua higher than Allen after everything he accomplished so far?   I am fine with him favoring Darnold right now, even though I disagree, but come on! Tua?

 

We are getting a lot of love right now from the media, so this isn't a media bashing thread, just a statement at how bad Orlovsky's take is.  He seems to have an agenda against Josh Allen, which he continues to attribute to "inaccuracy".

Please remind us what Allen has accomplished so far.

 

 

[Doc]

16 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The Raiders weren’t and the Jags came back from a pretty significant deficit to win.

 

The Raiders were 6-7 going into that game and had just lost to the Titans, who were 8-6 and ultimately got the last wildcard spot, the week before.  They were effectively out of the playoffs by that Jags game.

35 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Please remind us what Allen has accomplished so far.

 

More than Tua has in the pros.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

They were still very much alive in the playoff race.... either way I’m not sure what this has to do with Minshew and Allen.

Bro don’t bother. No other young QB will get credit with some folks due to Allen insecurity. Folks out here acting like Deshaun Watson is a 10 year pro, and guys like Murray and Minshew didn’t have good rookie campaigns. It’s pointless.

 

We saw this same thing with Mahomes, Wentz etc. They had a bad day at camp and it was proof they were worse than Tyrod or whatever.

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They were still very much alive in the playoff race.... either way I’m not sure what this has to do with Minshew and Allen.

 

They weren't "very much alive."  They needed to win their last 3 games, two on the road, and see the Titans lose their last 3 games, 2 of them at home.  And then if that had happened, they would have gotten extremely lucky to make the playoffs, right?  Or does that only apply when the Bills make it?

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

This year will tell a whole lot about Josh Allen. As I said in another thread, they are a Super Bowl contender if he improves, if not they’ll I’d bet a lot of money they try and convince Cam to sign on for the 2021 season.

Stafford is a more intriguing target. Someone we know can run an offense, and can win if he’s paired with a decent team around him. Cam is riskier at this point imo.

Edited May 29, 2020 by FireChans

[Doc]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Ok very much alive is a stretch. At that moment they were basically 2 games out with 3 to play. Not likely but not impossible either.... and Titans at 9-7 made it so they would’ve needed to win out and Tennessee lose 2 of their last 3, not all 3. 
 

Again, what does this have to do with Minshew and Allen?

 

Again the Raiders were 6-7 and the Titans were 8-5 (I misspoke and said 8-6 earlier) and on the rise at that point, and the Titans had beaten the Raiders the week before so they held the H2H tie-breaker over them.  And again the Raiders didn't have a good defense.

 

As for what it has to do with Minshew and Allen, the discussion was finishing the season strong.  Minshew had a fine rookie season.  Can he keep it up is the question and something we'll have to wait and see.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Again, what does this have to do with Minshew and Allen?

I believe I first brought up it’s relevance when another poster claimed I was giving out patently false information that Allen had an as good or better second half of the season than Minshew. 
 

They countered with each players final three games of the season which was never my original argument. 
 

I also noted the stark difference in strength of opponent and meaningfulness of each game. 
 

Allen:

vs. Baltimore

@ Pittsburgh

@ New England

 

Minshew:

@ Oakland

@ Atlanta

vs. Indianapolis

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

They weren't "very much alive."  They needed to win their last 3 games, two on the road, and see the Titans lose their last 3 games, 2 of them at home.  And then if that had happened, they would have gotten extremely lucky to make the playoffs, right?  Or does that only apply when the Bills make it?

So you think those teams laid down, but for some reason the Jags didn’t.  It’s really amazing the contortion act people will go through in order to discount the fact that a late round rookie who was never groomed to be the starter threw for a higher completion percentage, more yards, more TDs, and fewer INTs than Allen.  1 yard TD runs define QB success.  (Ever wonder if maybe the reason Daboll calls Josh’s number from the goal line so often when seemingly every other OC hands it to the RB is to pad the stats of the guy his bosses staked their careers on?)

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

So you think those teams laid down, but for some reason the Jags didn’t.  It’s really amazing the contortion act people will go through in order to discount the fact that a late round rookie who was never groomed to be the starter threw for a higher completion percentage, more yards, more TDs, and fewer INTs than Allen.  1 yard TD runs define QB success.  (Ever wonder if maybe the reason Daboll calls Josh’s number from the goal line so often when seemingly every other OC hands it to the RB is to pad the stats of the guy his bosses staked their careers on?)

 

I think the Jags wanted to see what Minshew could do.  That's how I would have played it with a young QB who looked like he had promise.

[Billl]

9 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I believe I first brought up it’s relevance when another poster claimed I was giving out patently false information that Allen had an as good or better second half of the season than Minshew. 
 

They countered with each players final three games of the season which was never my original argument. 
 

I also noted the stark difference in strength of opponent and meaningfulness of each game. 
 

Allen:

vs. Baltimore

@ Pittsburgh

@ New England

 

Minshew:

@ Oakland

@ Atlanta

vs. Indianapolis

 

 

You didn’t say he had a better second half.  You said Minshew got less efficient and Josh got more efficient and specifically mentioned his last 3 games including that turd against Pittsburgh.  I gave you both of their ratings for their last 3 games.  Minshew didn’t get less efficient.  His numbers dwarfed Josh’s during that same stretch.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 minutes ago, Billl said:

So you think those teams laid down, but for some reason the Jags didn’t.  

Oakland? Most definitely not.

 

Atlanta. Probably not.

 

Indianapolis? Week 17? Playing on the road? Certainly possible. Heck, would be interesting to see how many of the regular defensive starters even played the usual number of snaps for the Colts in that game.

 

On the flip side I know for certain none of Allen’s opponents in his final three starts laid down or made personnel changes you would make near the end of a loss season.

 

And the other half of the puzzle was the defensive rankings for those 3 teams vs the 3 Allen faced. And that’s the most important piece of the puzzle obviously.

[Billl]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I think the Jags wanted to see what Minshew could do.  That's how I would have played it with a young QB who looked like he had promise.

Explain again how he got less efficient, then.  I’m confused.

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Billl said:

So you think those teams laid down, but for some reason the Jags didn’t.  It’s really amazing the contortion act people will go through in order to discount the fact that a late round rookie who was never groomed to be the starter threw for a higher completion percentage, more yards, more TDs, and fewer INTs than Allen.  1 yard TD runs define QB success.  (Ever wonder if maybe the reason Daboll calls Josh’s number from the goal line so often when seemingly every other OC hands it to the RB is to pad the stats of the guy his bosses staked their careers on?)

Yeah but how did Minshew do in games where him, and his two starting WR’s started and finished?

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

Explain again how he got less efficient, then.  I’m confused.

 

More film?