spidey Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Maybe so. Although I suspect you're derisive in your suggestion, maybe they have a better handle on what it means to be a Christian. It's too bad that people like you would rather force out elements of change in your Church rather than considering what they have to say. Like I said the vote for the most conservative of Cardinals indicates to me that the Church is obstinate in its refusal to consider reform. I simply don't want to be a part of that anymore. 309278[/snapback] No one is forcing you to stay its a personal decision one makes. Whatever you decide is your decision. I would suggest you wait a while and see what happens since some hardliners were best reformers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Maybe so. Although I suspect you're derisive in your suggestion, maybe they have a better handle on what it means to be a Christian. It's too bad that people like you would rather force out elements of change in your Church rather than considering what they have to say. Like I said the vote for the most conservative of Cardinals indicates to me that the Church is obstinate in its refusal to consider reform. I simply don't want to be a part of that anymore. 309278[/snapback] No one is forcing you out, you're just being juvenile and throwing a temper tantrum and looking for the door yourself. I'm sure it feels 'noble' to try and force change upon an institution that has been around for thousands of years but the wonderful thing about 'free will' is if you don't like it, you can leave, but try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back about how 'enlightened' you are, mmmkay? BTW, this is coming from an agnostic. I would like to have faith, but at this time I really don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 No one is forcing you out, you're just being juvenile and throwing a temper tantrum and looking for the door yourself. I'm sure it feels 'noble' to try and force change upon an institution that has been around for thousands of years but the wonderful thing about 'free will' is if you don't like it, you can leave, but try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back about how 'enlightened' you are, mmmkay? BTW, this is coming from an agnostic. I would like to have faith, but at this time I really don't. 309291[/snapback] I wasn't holding myself up as an example of the elements being forced out of the Church. I'm just one person and it doesn't matter one way or the other. What I was pointing out is that the Church has for years been resisting the forces of change. Some find this endearing, I find this reprehensible. I don't know why you have to make it personal by telling me "not to break your arm patting yourself on the back about how 'enlightened' you are" I don't think I ever did any such thing. I'm just having a dialog with people about what the naming of the new Pope means for Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayzer32 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 No need to get in a huff, francis. Just liked the thong, that's all. 309254[/snapback] Just tryin to help a brother out. No huff here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiew Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Maybe so. Although I suspect you're derisive in your suggestion, maybe they have a better handle on what it means to be a Christian. It seems like all denominations feel they have the better handle on what it means to be a Christian. I sometimes wonder if the man upstairs is laughing at all these rightous know-it-alls who feel that their intepretation is the "right" one. Of course, none of us will know until the end. I've gone to many different churches because I prefer to worship in a group. But the only denomination I've seen so far that seems to welcome everyone to worship, and that leaves the "judging" up to God (and not the parish), is the Episcopal faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 make themselves a more inclusive Church including reassessing their stance on a celibate priesthood, allowing women to become priests, allowing contraception, and being more inclusive to gay Catholics. 309228[/snapback] I have recently been having a hard time with this gay thing, and am starting to rethink my stance, and somewhat can see the churches stance on this. Now this is going a little off topic, but what the hay. Is the argument that the Church should include gay parishoners based on the belief that homesexual men and women do not choose to gay, but are born "wired' that way? I have always heard the argument that no one would choose to be gay, therefore it is not a choice. Could this same doctrine than be applied to any "non-standard" sexual practice? For instance, I highly doubt anyone would choose to be a pedaphile. Should the church accept and welcome them as well, as is, and just say that is how they are wired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 I have recently been having a hard time with this gay thing, and am starting to rethink my stance, and somewhat can see the churches stance on this. Now this is going a little off topic, but what the hay. Is the argument that the Church should include gay parishoners based on the belief that homesexual men and women do not choose to gay, but are born "wired' that way? I have always heard the argument that no one would choose to be gay, therefore it is not a choice. Could this same doctrine than be applied to any "non-standard" sexual practice? For instance, I highly doubt anyone would choose to be a pedaphile. Should the church accept and welcome them as well, as is, and just say that is how they are wired? 309331[/snapback] Hmm..even if it is a sin, then that doesn't mean they should be excluded from coming to church (I don't know if that is the case). I would say all of the people in the pews have sinned a bit, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Could this same doctrine than be applied to any "non-standard" sexual practice? For instance, I highly doubt anyone would choose to be a pedaphile. Should the church accept and welcome them as well, as is, and just say that is how they are wired? 309331[/snapback] I don't think so. A Pedophile is a sexual deviant. Pedophilia is listed in DSM IV as a mental illness. A homosexual is not a deviant. What they do may seem unsavory to those of us who are straight, but being gay isn't only about the sexual side of things, it's who the person decides to have a relationship with and spend their life with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 It seems like all denominations feel they have the better handle on what it means to be a Christian. I sometimes wonder if the man upstairs is laughing at all these rightous know-it-alls who feel that their intepretation is the "right" one. Of course, none of us will know until the end. I've gone to many different churches because I prefer to worship in a group. But the only denomination I've seen so far that seems to welcome everyone to worship, and that leaves the "judging" up to God (and not the parish), is the Episcopal faith. 309327[/snapback] "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isiah 5:20 Don't you have to be able to judge to differentiate between good and evil? Another inconsistency in the Bible I suppose... FWIW, I've always thought that all roads (Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc) lead to the same destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Hmm..even if it is a sin, then that doesn't mean they should be excluded from coming to church (I don't know if that is the case). I would say all of the people in the pews have sinned a bit, right? 309337[/snapback] Actually, homosexuals and the divorced are forbidden from participating in eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Hmm..even if it is a sin, then that doesn't mean they should be excluded from coming to church (I don't know if that is the case). I would say all of the people in the pews have sinned a bit, right? 309337[/snapback] Agreed, but we are debating if they should be embraced and allowed to participate in the sacraments. I left the catholic church because I could not personally follow all of the tenats of the faith, However, I am starting to rethink that position. Earlier post mentioned the Episcopalian Church/ Anglican, and that is what I had been attending in DC. Assistant pastor is a gay man, parishoners fighting all the time about direction of that particlar church, as well as a pretty big divide splitting the religion in two between conservatives and liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 I don't think so. A Pedophile is a sexual deviant. Pedophilia is listed in DSM IV as a mental illness. A homosexual is not a deviant. What they do may seem unsavory to those of us who are straight, but being gay isn't only about the sexual side of things, it's who the person decides to have a relationship with and spend their life with. 309341[/snapback] Why is this any differant than a pedophile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Actually, homosexuals and the divorced are forbidden from participating in eucharist. 309343[/snapback] The difference is that the divorced can buy an annulment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Some spiritual leader. Even Hitler wasn't in the Hitler Youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Could this same doctrine than be applied to any "non-standard" sexual practice? For instance, I highly doubt anyone would choose to be a pedaphile. Should the church accept and welcome them as well, as is, and just say that is how they are wired? 309331[/snapback] Getting rid of everything else about how gay people become gay here is the difference. With gay people there is a relationship between two adults. In the case of a pedophile it is an adult trying to impose his sexual will on a minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTS Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Looks like you gots a decision to make. 309025[/snapback] If your basis for going to church is who the Pope is or isn't, maybe you shouldn't go. You go to church to pray to God not to his leaders on Earth. They are just as human as us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 If your basis for going to church is who the Pope is or isn't, maybe you shouldn't go. You go to church to pray to God not to his leaders on Earth. They are just as human as us. 309370[/snapback] I thought the pope was infallible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Hopefully,when the political process will not be tainted to the point where there is any question of the need of a recount.... 309098[/snapback] Don't count on it. The precedent was set in the State of Washington Gubernatorial race last year. Election: Republican is ahead. Disenfranchisement! Count every vote! Wahh wahh! Democrat judges demand recount in Democrat-heavy counties. Recount 1: Republican is ahead. Disenfranchisement! Count every vote! Wahh wahh! Democrat judges demand further recount in Democrat-heavy counties. Recount 2: Republican is ahead. Disenfranchisement! Count every vote! Wahh wahh! Democrat judges demand further recount in Democrat-heavy counties. Recount 3: Democrat is ahead. No more recounts! Democrat judges laugh at Republican demands for further recounts in Republican-heavy counties and calls for investigation. Make no mistake, this is why the Democrats are filibustering all these judges. They are the party of the lawyers, and know that they can enact their agenda more effectively through judicial fiat from Democrats on the bench, than by actually standing for election. It's a given that the judicial branch has for some time been usurping authority from the legislative branch - now they've turned their sights on the executive as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 If your basis for going to church is who the Pope is or isn't, maybe you shouldn't go. You go to church to pray to God not to his leaders on Earth. They are just as human as us. 309370[/snapback] Couldnt agree more. The Pople is human the Pope isnt God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 If your basis for going to church is who the Pope is or isn't, maybe you shouldn't go. You go to church to pray to God not to his leaders on Earth. They are just as human as us. 309370[/snapback] You are completely incorrect. It amazes me how many Catholics don't really understand the teachings of the church they belong to. Papal Infallibility. Look it up. Here - I'll help: Learn about it. Wikipedia on it ... Another thing many Catholics don't understand is that you MUST believe that the wine you drink on Sunday at mass is actually turned into blood. You aren't drinking wine that represents the blood of Jesus. You ARE drinking the blood of Jesus. It's not wine. It's blood. If you don't truly believe that in your heart, you shouldn't be partaking in the sacrament of eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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