Steve Billieve Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 Just now, John from Riverside said: No....and if that is what you are saying then I misread your post. If him improves into a player worthy of the big contract....you pay him. (I personally think giving him legit weapons is going to cause this to all fall into line) Yeah, that's all I'm saying. Dak isn't good enough and Allen hasn't become good enough. Not trying to predict the future. Seemed like Dak was the blueprint we were looking at.
Paulus Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 1 hour ago, RiotAct said: ask me in a couple years. The only reasonable answer...
DCOrange Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 If Allen becomes a top 10ish QB, sure. He isn’t there yet though.
Buffalophil1948 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 After he leads us to winning the next 2 Superbowls? Absolutely! Pay the man 1
GunnerBill Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 2 hours ago, mattt9998 said: Hypothetical.... In a couple years the Bills are in the Cowboys shoes and have a choice of making Josh Allen the highest paid player in the league or letting him walk? What would you do? Is Dak even a top 15 QB in the league? Sure sounds like the Cowboys are going to give him a butt ton of money. Would you give the same to JA? Yes. Dak is a top 10 QB. Yes. I would pay him. Yes. If Josh's play takes another bump over the next two years it will take a similar pay day to keep him (might not be the biggest contract because he will only be a year behind the Mahomes deal but he will likely be going into the same bracket as Watson who will likely have the 2nd biggest deal at that point). And finally - Yes. In that scenario the Bills should pay Josh. You always pay your Quarterback. That is football 101. 3
GunnerBill Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 47 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said: Why are people scared to pay a player if they get really good? Baffles me Because we are Bills fans. And for 20 years we have excused the lack of winning by obsessing about things that are peripheral issues - cap space, comp picks and perceived media slights. I keep saying it but this team finally being good and relevant is going to require some fans to change their mindset quite radically. What wins in the NFL is top end talent. When you find it you pay it. You worry about the rest later. 41 minutes ago, Dadonkadonk said: Define really good? There are consequences to tying up that much cap space in a QB. So it is a bit more complicated than you are making it out to be. In a perfect world if he was the 10th best QB he would be paid as the 10th best QB. But that is not how it works. Guys get overpaid just because it is their time to get a new contract or teams are desperate - see Vikings. This is true but what is the alternative? Be the Washington Redskins? Yea. I have watched enough terrible football as a Bills fan. I don't want to sign up for any more. The Bills can't unilaterally "right" the Quarterback market. So they either pay Josh Allen or shout "stop the world I want to get off" and go back to trying to convince themselves that you can win if you put a team around Kelly Holcomb, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Tyrod Taylor. 1 2
Billl Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Dadonkadonk said: Define really good? There are consequences to tying up that much cap space in a QB. So it is a bit more complicated than you are making it out to be. In a perfect world if he was the 10th best QB he would be paid as the 10th best QB. But that is not how it works. Guys get overpaid just because it is their time to get a new contract or teams are desperate - see Vikings. I love how you’re using the Vikings as an argument for why you should do what the Redskins did with Cousins. The team that paid Cousins has done way better than the team who wouldn’t pay him. 2
Mickey Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Long way to go to be Dak Prescott. Hmm, last thanksgiving I seem to remember Josh outplaying him on Dak's home field. Granted, his completion percentage might not be as good but his beat the hell out of Dak's team percentage is damn near perfect. 1
Billl Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mickey said: Hmm, last thanksgiving I seem to remember Josh outplaying him on Dak's home field. Granted, his completion percentage might not be as good but his beat the hell out of Dak's team percentage is damn near perfect. Fitzpatrick > Brady 1
TwistofFate Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 2 hours ago, Steve Billieve said: I'd let him walk. Both Dak and where Allen is at now. It's not even a question. Grab a first or second round prospect after Allen's 4th and sign his option. In today's NFL you might even be able to trade him. QB on a rookie deal is a beautiful thing, even a mediocre one. Am I understanding you correctly? You want to let a legit franchise Qb walk because you'd rather have our starting Qb on a rookie salary?
GunnerBill Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 14 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: Am I understanding you correctly? You want to let a legit franchise Qb walk because you'd rather have our starting Qb on a rookie salary? Sadly I think that is indeed the argument. The argument is a mediocre rookie contract QB is better than a legit franchise QB. We are in the twilight zone folks. We are through the freaking looking glass. 3
JoPoy88 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 3 hours ago, mattt9998 said: Hypothetical.... In a couple years the Bills are in the Cowboys shoes and have a choice of making Josh Allen the highest paid player in the league or letting him walk? What would you do? Is Dak even a top 15 QB in the league? Sure sounds like the Cowboys are going to give him a butt ton of money. Would you give the same to JA? Dak is top 15 yes. and your lazy hypothetical about allen can’t be answered until after we see him play one more season.
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 2 hours ago, MarkyMannn said: JA has a long way to go to be worth the highest paid NFL player And yet it’s precisely the QB’s on a carousel who get paid as the most at the time their K’s are up, “becoming king for a day” (see below) almost without regard as to whether or not they’re actually worthy of the title, so I hope Josh actually will be worth it at that time. I’m optimistic he’s well on his way. https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1/2/18164980/nfl-playoffs-quarterbacks-salary-cap-kirk-cousins-patrick-mahomes https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/04/16/quarterback-market-has-exploded-in-less-than-two-years/amp/
Thurman#1 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 3 hours ago, mattt9998 said: Hypothetical.... In a couple years the Bills are in the Cowboys shoes and have a choice of making Josh Allen the highest paid player in the league or letting him walk? What would you do? Is Dak even a top 15 QB in the league? Sure sounds like the Cowboys are going to give him a butt ton of money. Would you give the same to JA? I've never thought Dak a top 12 guy. Till last year when he was a top ten guy. If you've got a top ten guy you have to re-sign him and unless he's willing to give you a discount, or unless the NFL is going through hard financial times, you have to make him the highest-paid guy. Yeah, assuming he's a top ten QB at that young age, I'd do it. I'd grumble. But I'd pay him.
Thurman#1 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: Because we are Bills fans. And for 20 years we have excused the lack of winning by obsessing about things that are peripheral issues - cap space, comp picks and perceived media slights. I keep saying it but this team finally being good and relevant is going to require some fans to change their mindset quite radically. What wins in the NFL is top end talent. When you find it you pay it. You worry about the rest later. This is true but what is the alternative? Be the Washington Redskins? Yea. I have watched enough terrible football as a Bills fan. I don't want to sign up for any more. The Bills can't unilaterally "right" the Quarterback market. So they either pay Josh Allen or shout "stop the world I want to get off" and go back to trying to convince themselves that you can win if you put a team around Kelly Holcomb, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Tyrod Taylor. Again, I politely but very strongly disagree with calling those issues peripheral. Well, not media slights, that's entirely peripheral. But cap space and comp picks are the opposite of peripheral. It's not a mistake that Beane in his interview with the Pegulas promised that he would completely clear up the cap problem within two years. The reason he was talking about that at that important moment is exactly the obvious. Because it's not peripheral. Anything but. Are these in the top five issues a GM should be concerned about, once he's past the rebuild? No. But it's not a mistake that the teams obsessed with those "peripheral" issues, the ones who play those systems the best, are among the best in the league, the Pats, the Ravens, the Pack, the Steelers. You look at their history and you find that whether they're having bad or good years they're always maximizing comp picks. Teams that have rebuilt don't generally get them, but look at the Pats and after that first four years of the Belichick era, suddenly they're always getting them.Now that they've lost Brady and their window, watch the Pats go back to the penny-pinching, comp-pick-pinching ways that they've hammered away at through nearly all of the Belichick era. Yes what wins is talent. No question. And the way to maximize your talent is to do the things that allow you to bring in more, better, younger and cheaper players, and two of those things are absolutely cap space and comp picks. When you have to overpay for a QB, comp picks allow you to bring in a few more guys on cheap rookie contracts and cap space allows you to fill holes with low- to mid-priced guys who aren't weaknesses, and that's something you can't do when you are up against the cap. 1
MJS Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 If he's in the conversation for being the highest paid player in the NFL, he's worth it and you sign him.
Thurman#1 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mickey said: Hmm, last thanksgiving I seem to remember Josh outplaying him on Dak's home field. Granted, his completion percentage might not be as good but his beat the hell out of Dak's team percentage is damn near perfect. Nope, that's not Josh who had a 100% "beat the hell out of Dak's team" percentage. That was the Buffalo Bills. Wins and losses are team stats. Did Josh outplay Dak in that game? Yeah. Does that mean he's a better QB, because he outplayed a guy in one game? No. And it's worth remembering that the defense Dak's offense was playing against that game was significantly better than the Cowboys defense Josh's offense was facing. Edited May 27, 2020 by Thurman#1
GunnerBill Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 47 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Again, I politely but very strongly disagree with calling those issues peripheral. Well, not media slights, that's entirely peripheral. But cap space and comp picks are the opposite of peripheral. It's not a mistake that Beane in his interview with the Pegulas promised that he would completely clear up the cap problem within two years. The reason he was talking about that at that important moment is exactly the obvious. Because it's not peripheral. Anything but. Are these in the top five issues a GM should be concerned about, once he's past the rebuild? No. But it's not a mistake that the teams obsessed with those "peripheral" issues, the ones who play those systems the best, are among the best in the league, the Pats, the Ravens, the Pack, the Steelers. You look at their history and you find that whether they're having bad or good years they're always maximizing comp picks. Teams that have rebuilt don't generally get them, but look at the Pats and after that first four years of the Belichick era, suddenly they're always getting them.Now that they've lost Brady and their window, watch the Pats go back to the penny-pinching, comp-pick-pinching ways that they've hammered away at through nearly all of the Belichick era. Yes what wins is talent. No question. And the way to maximize your talent is to do the things that allow you to bring in more, better, younger and cheaper players, and two of those things are absolutely cap space and comp picks. When you have to overpay for a QB, comp picks allow you to bring in a few more guys on cheap rookie contracts and cap space allows you to fill holes with low- to mid-priced guys who aren't weaknesses, and that's something you can't do when you are up against the cap. The reason Beane talked about "cleaning up the cap" was to buy time. What he and McDermott really meant was "get the guys out who don't fit out culture" but they couldn't say that because they still needed some of those guys to go out there and perform for them. The Bills were not in cap hell or anything like it. In fact in the last 10 years I can only think of two genuine "cap hell" situations in the NFL. The Saints in 2014 and the Falcons this year. The cap is so flexible that it should never become an issue. Yes you need a plan and a strategy but what you really need is great players. As for comp picks.... they are not irrelevant. But they are peripheral. Brandon Beane is yet to have a single comp pick as the GM of the Bills. He has had plenty of picks though. There are numerous ways to skin the cat. People who obsess about cap space and comp picks are getting it totally the wrong way around and luckily from everything he says... Beane gets it. What he wants is good football players. That should be the goal and being dogmatic about the way you achieve that helps nobody. The priority is talent. Your cap space and your draft picks are currency to acquire talent and, critically, to retain it. 2 1
BillsShredder83 Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 Unequivocally yes. When we do resign him it'll set a record deal, the bar will raise for all qbs salary..... salary cap will go up to accommodate growing salaries.... rinse repeat
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