Nihilarian Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 1 hour ago, BarleyNY said: You’re saying some truly ridiculous thing here. I’ll hit on a few: - Your contention that offensive failures are always on the coordinator is mind boggling. Sure, they can be but by no means is failure always on an OC. It’s their job to put their players in a position to perform well, but the players must execute. That’s their job. - Next you blamed the offense’s woes on the supporting cast. Sure, they need to perform, but the QB who is the most important player on the team should be expected to perform too. No one on the Bills offense performed worse in that game than Allen did except for Knox. Everyone else can’t be expected to be perfect before even considering that Allen should shoulder some of the blame for his own play. - You also blame Allen’s issues on his inexperience and youth. He’s really not that much younger than a lot of other players in the NFL, including some more successful QBs. And, yes, he came from Wyoming not LSU. But I asked you how big of a pass he should get for that and you didn’t answer. Again the Ravens game was week 14 of year 2 for him. He doesn’t get a pass forever. - It should never be on the QB to win a game? Okay. I don’t think anyone is saying it is 100% on any QB to do it all by himself. But if you play the most important position in football, where you can impact games more than anyone else and can earn the most money of any position, then why shouldn’t I expect you to help my team win? You've blamed Daboll and everyone else on the offense for the problems on that side of the ball. Why is Allen so untouchable for you when it comes to his play? Why do you literally blame everyone else and assign zero blame to him? First off, I never said it's always on the OC. What I said was, the buck stops with the OC and it certainly does no matter what you think or say. If the offense continues to fail the OC will get fired! I'm thinking if the 2020 Buffalo Bills offense stays north of 20th in yards this season. Daboll is a goner! I also never said the QB isn't partially to blame every game. It's not just all on the QB as it is a team sport and he has a job to get done too. The QB does get most of the blame though. If he fails at that job over many games, then yes, the QB might be the problem. Look back to the previous Dallas game where everything was clicking, run game, pass game, offensive line protected the QB when the Cowboys ran a cover 0 scheme, the receivers caught balls. Allen had the very best game of his career with a 120.7 rating. Guess what, Dak Prescott threw 49 times for 355 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT in a losing effort. However, in this particular Ravens game Allen was continuously put under the gun because the OC failed to get the run game working. Like others have said, Gore at this point shouldn't have even been dressing. And like I've said, Singletary was very much underutilized all season. So, the RB gets stuffed the first play, do you give up on the run game after that in that series, as It sure looks like that's what Daboll did again and again in the second half of that Ravens game. Yes, teams need the QB position to lead them. Just not attempt to or be asked to do it all by themselves. The late great 49ers HC Bill Walsh stated it generally takes four full playing seasons for an NFL QB to develop. Allen has had two seasons and that first one he really had little time in the pocket to develop as a pocket passer. He is learning and getting better the more he plays. That link I provided showed that and it also showed that he is more than fine with overthrowing a deep ball rather then seeing it get intercepted. The run game doesn't work, it doesn't work in the red zone...is that the QB's fault too? In my view Daboll needs to find a way to get that running game working in every game! He sure doesn't have a problem attempting to work that passing game no matter what.
GoBills808 Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, Billl said: Contrary to your posting style of being an unrelentingly insufferable prick, not every comment is a fist fight. I literally agreed with your comment, but don’t let that stop you from doing what you do. Again: no, you weren't. You thought you were supporting the idea that 'inaccurate' QBs face an inordinately high amount of man coverage and used an unrelated graphic as proof. That's why you said Rodgers was second when he's quite clearly first. I simply provided you the correct data.
FireChans Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Again: no, you weren't. You thought you were supporting the idea that 'inaccurate' QBs face an inordinately high amount of man coverage and used an unrelated graphic as proof. That's why you said Rodgers was second when he's quite clearly first. I simply provided you the correct data. You’re responding to two different posters. 1
Billl Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Again: no, you weren't. You thought you were supporting the idea that 'inaccurate' QBs face an inordinately high amount of man coverage and used an unrelated graphic as proof. That's why you said Rodgers was second when he's quite clearly first. I simply provided you the correct data. My post literally said “I’m referencing the chart showing their performance against zone vs man rather than how often they faced it. There doesn’t seem to by much or any correlation regarding how often they face it.” According to the data in that article, inaccurate passers perform better against zone. They don’t face more of it. Edited May 26, 2020 by Billl
GoBills808 Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: You’re responding to two different posters. No, I’m not. Just now, Billl said: My post literally said “I’m referencing the chart showing their performance against zone vs man rather than how often they faced it. There doesn’t seem to by much or any correlation regarding how often they face it.” Inaccurate passers perform better against zone. They don’t face more of it. Nobody was talking about performance.
Billl Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Nobody was talking about performance. I understand that. It’s why I specifically noted that I was referencing something different. I thought it was interesting that there wasn’t a discernible correlation between performance against zone defenses and how often opponents used it against specific QBs. The OP insinuated that there may have been a correlation. As you noted, the data didn’t support that. I don’t know how much more I can spoon feed the fact that I agreed with you.
FireChans Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: No, I’m not. Nobody was talking about performance. @Billl was trying to lol. He never said anything about how often they faced man vs zone except to say there’s no correlation. He was joining the conversation. The original person who made the argument that some QB’s face man more than zone stopped responding. 1 1
GoBills808 Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 5 minutes ago, FireChans said: @Billl was trying to lol. He never said anything about how often they faced man vs zone except to say there’s no correlation. He was joining the conversation. The original person who made the argument that some QB’s face man more than zone stopped responding. He literally tried to correct my saying Rodgers was first by saying he was second. I don't know how I can spell this out any clearer. 1
Billl Posted May 26, 2020 Posted May 26, 2020 59 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: He literally tried to correct my saying Rodgers was first by saying he was second. I don't know how I can spell this out any clearer. That’s true. I should have removed that part. I added the disclaimer at the bottom when I realized the discrepancy in the charts we were referencing, but I left the first line in.
BarleyNY Posted May 27, 2020 Posted May 27, 2020 16 hours ago, Nihilarian said: First off, I never said it's always on the OC. What I said was, the buck stops with the OC and it certainly does no matter what you think or say. If the offense continues to fail the OC will get fired! I'm thinking if the 2020 Buffalo Bills offense stays north of 20th in yards this season. Daboll is a goner! I also never said the QB isn't partially to blame every game. It's not just all on the QB as it is a team sport and he has a job to get done too. The QB does get most of the blame though. If he fails at that job over many games, then yes, the QB might be the problem. Look back to the previous Dallas game where everything was clicking, run game, pass game, offensive line protected the QB when the Cowboys ran a cover 0 scheme, the receivers caught balls. Allen had the very best game of his career with a 120.7 rating. Guess what, Dak Prescott threw 49 times for 355 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT in a losing effort. However, in this particular Ravens game Allen was continuously put under the gun because the OC failed to get the run game working. Like others have said, Gore at this point shouldn't have even been dressing. And like I've said, Singletary was very much underutilized all season. So, the RB gets stuffed the first play, do you give up on the run game after that in that series, as It sure looks like that's what Daboll did again and again in the second half of that Ravens game. Yes, teams need the QB position to lead them. Just not attempt to or be asked to do it all by themselves. The late great 49ers HC Bill Walsh stated it generally takes four full playing seasons for an NFL QB to develop. Allen has had two seasons and that first one he really had little time in the pocket to develop as a pocket passer. He is learning and getting better the more he plays. That link I provided showed that and it also showed that he is more than fine with overthrowing a deep ball rather then seeing it get intercepted. The run game doesn't work, it doesn't work in the red zone...is that the QB's fault too? In my view Daboll needs to find a way to get that running game working in every game! He sure doesn't have a problem attempting to work that passing game no matter what. You’re mostly just making arguments I’ve already debunked. So just refer to my previous posts and answer my question: In your opinion, at what point would it be acceptable to expect Josh Allen, the 7th overall pick of the 2018 draft and the Bills starting QB, to positively contribute to winning games like that one? Because he did very, very little to help in that regard. 1
Nihilarian Posted May 28, 2020 Posted May 28, 2020 15 hours ago, BarleyNY said: You’re mostly just making arguments I’ve already debunked. So just refer to my previous posts and answer my question: In your opinion, at what point would it be acceptable to expect Josh Allen, the 7th overall pick of the 2018 draft and the Bills starting QB, to positively contribute to winning games like that one? Because he did very, very little to help in that regard. Even if Allen had hit on a few of those deep passes the Ravens MO is to still blitz 50% of the time. Allen wasn't that godawful in that entire game...despite being under extreme duress most of that game. 6 sacks, 12 QB hits, 15 QB pressures, 3 harries!" Trailing 24-9, Allen showed resolve in mounting a seven-play, 78-yard touchdown drive capped by his 3-yard pass to Cole Beasley, who dived inside the left pylon. The same two then hooked up on a 2-point conversion. Buffalo also fell short with a chance to at least force overtime, facing fourth-and-8 at the Baltimore 16, Allen stood in the pocket and sent a pass over the middle intended for John Brown only to have Ravens CB Marcus Peters break it up at the goal line. "I have to make more plays. I should've made that last play," Brown said. https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127868 The game plan concocted by Ravens Defensive Coordinator Wink Martindale was simple and brutal – attack, attack, attack. Almost every time he dropped back, Allen was chased and harassed. The Ravens came in with modest pass-rush stats but registered six sacks and 12 quarterback hits. Matthew Judon set up a touchdown with a strip-sack. Buffalo's offensive line was overwhelmed. Allen and his offense still made some plays, left a few on the table and rallied late. But Buffalo didn't sniff the end zone until midway through the fourth quarter, and it's hard to complete a rally when your quarterback is running for his life. Tight end Dawson Knox dropped an on-target throw that would have extended a dangerous-looking drive in the third quarter. Drops by Devin Singletary and Cole Beasley ended another drive in the third quarter https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/eisenberg-breakdown-five-thoughts-on-ravens-vs-bills Why don't you, (in your debunking mode) comprehend that it wasn't just the QB that failed in that particular game. The offensive line failed... the run game failed... the receivers failed to get separation, dropped balls. The Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator failed in finding a way for the O line to do a better job of picking up blitzes, find plays to get the run game working, find plays to make the pass game work better. The QB is just one part of an offense. He doesn't call the plays, set up the game plan, block for himself or catch his own passes. Feel better about Josh Allen... go back and re-watch that week 13 Dallas Cowboys Thanksgiving game where the Bills win in Dallas 26-15. You know, the game in which the Bills O line picked up the cover 0 blitzes. The game that the Bills receivers got separation and caught passes and where the run game was working. Despite being sacked four times Allen had a career game 19 of 24 for 231, 1 passing TD, one rushing TD and a rate of 120.7. Not bad for the 7th overall pick of the 2018 NFL draft. 2
BarleyNY Posted May 28, 2020 Posted May 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Nihilarian said: Even if Allen had hit on a few of those deep passes the Ravens MO is to still blitz 50% of the time. Allen wasn't that godawful in that entire game...despite being under extreme duress most of that game. 6 sacks, 12 QB hits, 15 QB pressures, 3 harries!" Trailing 24-9, Allen showed resolve in mounting a seven-play, 78-yard touchdown drive capped by his 3-yard pass to Cole Beasley, who dived inside the left pylon. The same two then hooked up on a 2-point conversion. Buffalo also fell short with a chance to at least force overtime, facing fourth-and-8 at the Baltimore 16, Allen stood in the pocket and sent a pass over the middle intended for John Brown only to have Ravens CB Marcus Peters break it up at the goal line. "I have to make more plays. I should've made that last play," Brown said. https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401127868 The game plan concocted by Ravens Defensive Coordinator Wink Martindale was simple and brutal – attack, attack, attack. Almost every time he dropped back, Allen was chased and harassed. The Ravens came in with modest pass-rush stats but registered six sacks and 12 quarterback hits. Matthew Judon set up a touchdown with a strip-sack. Buffalo's offensive line was overwhelmed. Allen and his offense still made some plays, left a few on the table and rallied late. But Buffalo didn't sniff the end zone until midway through the fourth quarter, and it's hard to complete a rally when your quarterback is running for his life. Tight end Dawson Knox dropped an on-target throw that would have extended a dangerous-looking drive in the third quarter. Drops by Devin Singletary and Cole Beasley ended another drive in the third quarter https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/eisenberg-breakdown-five-thoughts-on-ravens-vs-bills Why don't you, (in your debunking mode) comprehend that it wasn't just the QB that failed in that particular game. The offensive line failed... the run game failed... the receivers failed to get separation, dropped balls. The Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator failed in finding a way for the O line to do a better job of picking up blitzes, find plays to get the run game working, find plays to make the pass game work better. The QB is just one part of an offense. He doesn't call the plays, set up the game plan, block for himself or catch his own passes. Feel better about Josh Allen... go back and re-watch that week 13 Dallas Cowboys Thanksgiving game where the Bills win in Dallas 26-15. You know, the game in which the Bills O line picked up the cover 0 blitzes. The game that the Bills receivers got separation and caught passes and where the run game was working. Despite being sacked four times Allen had a career game 19 of 24 for 231, 1 passing TD, one rushing TD and a rate of 120.7. Not bad for the 7th overall pick of the 2018 NFL draft. Man, you’re really off the rails here. I’ll just leave it at this. I spread the blame around, but Allen deserves a bunch of it. You’re the one who blamed everyone but him. He hasn’t played well against man coverage and pressure since he’s been a Bill. He did not play well against the Ravens. In the future he’s going to see more of the same. He’ll grow and figure it out or he’ll be a backup somewhere else. I hope he does figure it out, but I’m not going to sit here and pretend that it’s all everyone else’s fault that he hasn’t yet. And with that, I’m out.
thebandit27 Posted May 28, 2020 Posted May 28, 2020 (edited) For everyone who doesn’t remember it perfectly (as I didn’t), that Beasley throw in the 3rd quarter was absolutely incredible: https://mobile.twitter.com/22Yardbarker/status/1229419140911374337?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-23221431772577597.ampproject.net%2F2005151844001%2Fframe.html https://mobile.twitter.com/22Yardbarker/status/1229418445642641408?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-23221431772577597.ampproject.net%2F2005151844001%2Fframe.html Edited May 28, 2020 by thebandit27 1
Gugny Posted May 28, 2020 Posted May 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Doc said: So the bottom line is...there was blame all around. 11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: Absolutely....although some would have you think it was just Allen’s fault, or just the receivers drops, or just the offensive line breakdowns, or just the inconsistent play calling from Daboll.... it was a combination of all of that. Which was the case in all of our losses last year (except the throwaway Jets game).
first_and_ten Posted May 28, 2020 Posted May 28, 2020 On 5/25/2020 at 7:29 PM, RealKayAdams said: All of this plus the upgrade of Gore to Moss. During the last half of last season, this offense would have looked so much better if you had added just an extra 1-2 yards on many of Gore's runs. Totally agree with that. Nice insight. 1
njbuff Posted May 29, 2020 Posted May 29, 2020 Why can’t all of us just agree that Baltimore was the better team taking advantage of a Bills team that was still learning how to beat good teams. Hopefully, the 2020 Bills have learned that lesson............ BIG TIME.
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