Rewatching the ravens game tonight

[JerseyBills]

On 5/24/2020 at 2:19 AM, John from Riverside said:

We were very much in that game......

 

Our defense made plays even though the Ravens scored points

You could see the holes int he offense.....do we really want Devin S. and McKenzie attempting to catch down the field passes at critical situations

We needed more size on the field at the pass catcher position

Gore got shallacked in the red zone...at this point he really was done.   I hope Moss can help us here

2 fumbles by Josh in this game (one we got back) cant do that against the good teams

The blitzes that the ravens were throwing at us were being completely ignored by our offensive coordinator

 

Despite all this......we had a chance to tie it on the final offensive play

 

I know that everyone considers the ravens to be this elite team (and they are) but we despite all of our problems on offense had a chance to win this

With our upgrades on O and how our D matches up with their O , i think it's neck n neck basically. 

 

I feel like our defense and Titans defense really exposed them , I mean they were so dominant on O prior to our matchup. You stop the run and make Lamar beat you with his arm and they aren't so dominant after all. 

 

And they were throwing alot of Cover 0 and blitzing the heck outta Allen. Add Diggs to the mix and I don't see that happening. It'll be a helluva matchup!

[Nihilarian]

13 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Pinning this on Daboll doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.  Honestly, it’s total BS.  First off, he schemed an effective way to beat the Ravens.  Josh just couldn’t execute well enough on those early deep passes.  That’s not on the OC.  Incidentally it’s also not usually the OC when receivers can’t separate or the protection can’t block.  But let’s hit those one at a time.  The primary game plan was sound and would’ve worked if Allen could’ve hit some deep passes early.  Incidentally the receivers we’re open on those plays and the pass pro was solid.

 

Separation was not a big issue.  Watch the All 22 and remember that this is the NFL.  Pass pro was an issue at times.  Knox getting blown up on the play Allen fumbled deep in our own end led to a Ravens TD.  That was on Knox, who did not have a good game.  But hitting a couple deep passes would’ve backed the Ravens off.  Once they didn’t fear getting beat deep they stacked the box and blitzed away. 
 

So I’m not pinning the loss totally on Allen.  I made that clear in my first post.  But he sure didn’t help the Bills cause in this one. A lot of people here will blame everyone but him though.  Maybe you can tell me when I can start expecting the seventh overall pick of the 2018 draft to start helping us win games like that one.  I mean, that was in week 14 of his second season.  I know he came into the league very raw, but how long does he get before we can reasonably expect him to make a positive contribution against a quality opponent?

From my view when the offense fails for whatever reason it's on the coordinator to find a way make things work. The Bills play the Patriots 2x a season and they run that very same cover zero defense that the Ravens used. The Bills need to learn a way to beat that defensive scheme!!  The Titans found a way to beat it last season. 

 

The NFL is a "team" sport and it shouldn't all be on the young, inexperienced QB to make the offense work. The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over when its clearly not working.

 

Why is it all on the QB to make things work? Yes, the O line couldn't get it done in pass block, run blocking, the receivers had difficulty getting open, catching balls.

 

"A year after consistently struggling to place intermediate throws, Allen has been one of the league’s most accurate passers in that area of the field. He’s completed 64.7 percent of his throws between 10 and 20 yards this season—a jump of nearly 16 percentage points from his first season. Allen’s biggest gains in 2019 have come where he faltered most as a rookie."

 

"Yet for all of Allen’s strides forward this season, his efficiency on deep balls has taken a drastic step back. He enters Week 12 ranked 22nd out of 25 qualified quarterbacks with a 30.2 adjusted completion percentage on passes of 20 yards or more, and he’s routinely sailed throws well out of reach of his receivers. But Allen contends that he’s comfortable with how the process is playing out. He’s OK with his deep ball accuracy coming together last; just like his golf swing, he knows that as long as he’s hitting the ball straight, the length will eventually come. “I’m 100 percent OK with an overthrow compared to a pick under,” Allen says. “I’ll take that 100 times out of 100.”

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/21/20975461/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-quarterback-perception

 

A lot of Bills fans seem to forget that Allen didn't come from a big time college program and he only spent two seasons in a small time program that has never produced a top NFL QB. Allen was very raw out of college and has come a long way since then. Just remember the kid only has 27 NFL starts out of 32 going into his third season as a starting NFL QB.

 

Also, It should never all be on the QB to win games as it is a team sport. Even experienced NFL QB's like Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers fall on their face without a proper supporting cast. Watching those guys throw 40 times a game in a losing effort looks all to familiar. 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

34 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You missed Titans QB was better than the Bills QB last year. And their RB was better. So yeah. All those things matter.

 

Teams will continue to run Cover 0 against Josh until he proves he can beat them with his arm. Josh will continue to struggle against Cover 0 until he trusts his arm and his read and throws accurate passes in tight windows. 

Last play of the game he beat Cover0 which would have been the tying score but Brown couldn't win against Marcus Peters

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Last play of the game he beat Cover0 which would have been the tying score but Brown couldn't win against Marcus Peters

That’s what happens when you manage to throw one catachable ball against Cover zero all game. It comes down to one pass against a good defender.

 

Even if if they had completed that pass, the Ravens would have continued to run that defense until Allen proved he could consistently beat it. That’s his next stage in his development.

Edited May 26, 2020 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

That’s what happens when you manage to throw one catachable ball against Cover zero all game. It comes down to one pass against a good defender.

 

Even if if they had completed that pass, the Ravens would have continued to run that defense until Allen proved he could consistently beat it. That’s his next stage in his development.

Mmm you don't beat cover0 by throwing 'accurate passes in tight windows'

 

The whole concept of cover0 is understanding leverage...there are no tight windows, just reading routes develop and throwing angles

 

On that last play, Allen delivered the correct ball against that defense to the correct target who was so badly outmatched physically against his defender he couldn't even get a hand on it. 

 

And iirc he threw another one vs same defense to Beasley who dropped it, our wideouts got beat up that game

 

[BarleyNY]

53 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

From my view when the offense fails for whatever reason it's on the coordinator to find a way make things work. The Bills play the Patriots 2x a season and they run that very same cover zero defense that the Ravens used. The Bills need to learn a way to beat that defensive scheme!!  The Titans found a way to beat it last season. 

 

The NFL is a "team" sport and it shouldn't all be on the young, inexperienced QB to make the offense work. The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over when its clearly not working.

 

Why is it all on the QB to make things work? Yes, the O line couldn't get it done in pass block, run blocking, the receivers had difficulty getting open, catching balls.

 

"A year after consistently struggling to place intermediate throws, Allen has been one of the league’s most accurate passers in that area of the field. He’s completed 64.7 percent of his throws between 10 and 20 yards this season—a jump of nearly 16 percentage points from his first season. Allen’s biggest gains in 2019 have come where he faltered most as a rookie."

 

"Yet for all of Allen’s strides forward this season, his efficiency on deep balls has taken a drastic step back. He enters Week 12 ranked 22nd out of 25 qualified quarterbacks with a 30.2 adjusted completion percentage on passes of 20 yards or more, and he’s routinely sailed throws well out of reach of his receivers. But Allen contends that he’s comfortable with how the process is playing out. He’s OK with his deep ball accuracy coming together last; just like his golf swing, he knows that as long as he’s hitting the ball straight, the length will eventually come. “I’m 100 percent OK with an overthrow compared to a pick under,” Allen says. “I’ll take that 100 times out of 100.”

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/21/20975461/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-quarterback-perception

 

A lot of Bills fans seem to forget that Allen didn't come from a big time college program and he only spent two seasons in a small time program that has never produced a top NFL QB. Allen was very raw out of college and has come a long way since then. Just remember the kid only has 27 NFL starts out of 32 going into his third season as a starting NFL QB.

 

Also, It should never all be on the QB to win games as it is a team sport. Even experienced NFL QB's like Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers fall on their face without a proper supporting cast. Watching those guys throw 40 times a game in a losing effort looks all to familiar. 

 

 

 

You’re saying some truly ridiculous thing here.  I’ll hit on a few:

 

-  Your contention that offensive failures are always on the coordinator is mind boggling.  Sure, they can be but by no means is failure always on an OC.  It’s their job to put their players in a position to perform well, but the players must execute.  That’s their job. 
 

- Next you blamed the offense’s woes on the supporting cast.  Sure, they need to perform, but the QB who is the most important player on the team should be expected to perform too.  No one on the Bills offense performed worse in that game than Allen did except for Knox.  Everyone else can’t be expected to be perfect before even considering that Allen should shoulder some of the blame for his own play. 

 

- You also blame Allen’s issues on his inexperience and youth.  He’s really not that much younger than a lot of other players in the NFL, including some more successful QBs.  And, yes, he came from Wyoming not LSU.  But I asked you how big of a pass he should get for that and you didn’t answer.  Again the Ravens game was week 14 of year 2 for him.  He doesn’t get a pass forever.

 

- It should never be on the QB to win a game? Okay.  I don’t think anyone is saying it is 100% on any QB to do it all by himself.  But if you play the most important position in football, where you can impact games more than anyone else and can earn the most money of any position, then why shouldn’t I expect you to help my team win?

 

You've blamed Daboll and everyone else on the offense for the problems on that side of the ball.  Why is Allen so untouchable for you when it comes to his play?  Why do you literally blame everyone else and assign zero blame to him?

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Mmm you don't beat cover0 by throwing 'accurate passes in tight windows'

 

The whole concept of cover0 is understanding leverage...there are no tight windows, just reading routes develop and throwing angles

 

On that last play, Allen delivered the correct ball against that defense to the correct target who was so badly outmatched physically against his defender he couldn't even get a hand on it. 

 

And iirc he threw another one vs same defense to Beasley who dropped it, our wideouts got beat up that game

 

So by tight windows, I don’t mean between two defenders, rather throwing it to players who won’t be college open, and where a ball a foot behind them will be a pick.

 

The Ravens probably have the best personnel in the NFL to run Cover zero, their top 4 DB’s are pretty darn good from top to bottom. That makes the margin for error even smaller, as their DB’s are capable of making good defensive plays, just like they did on the final play in that game. If you don’t want to get beat on the final play, you have to make more plays earlier in the game.

 

Luckily, there are not many teams like the Ravens out there. If the Pats have truly turned back into pumpkins, and the Dolphins continue to struggle (although they have really upgraded their CB’s) we could theoretically get by.

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

So by tight windows, I don’t mean between two defenders, rather throwing it to players who won’t be college open, and where a ball a foot behind them will be a pick.

 

The Ravens probably have the best personnel in the NFL to run Cover zero, their top 4 DB’s are pretty darn good from top to bottom. That makes the margin for error even smaller, as their DB’s are capable of making good defensive plays, just like they did on the final play in that game. If you don’t want to get beat on the final play, you have to make more plays earlier in the game.

 

Luckily, there are not many teams like the Ravens out there. If the Pats have truly turned back into pumpkins, and the Dolphins continue to struggle (although they have really upgraded their CB’s) we could theoretically get by.

Ok I understand you

 

I think the Bills haven't had a wideout like Diggs before and we've collectively forgotten how a guy like him can improve an offense. If he is running that route instead of Brown it's either a TD or more likely the Ravens aren't in Cover0 because with Diggs on the field you can expect him to win and just throw him open for a TD when you see that look

[BarleyNY]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Mmm you don't beat cover0 by throwing 'accurate passes in tight windows'

 

The whole concept of cover0 is understanding leverage...there are no tight windows, just reading routes develop and throwing angles

 

On that last play, Allen delivered the correct ball against that defense to the correct target who was so badly outmatched physically against his defender he couldn't even get a hand on it. 

 

And iirc he threw another one vs same defense to Beasley who dropped it, our wideouts got beat up that game

 

Typically man coverage is played more against less accurate QBs.  A few seasons ago the QB who saw the most man coverage was Cam Newton.  I remember that because he was Allen’s pro comp in the draft and I read it in that context.  The reality is simple.  Allen will see a lot of Cover0 and Cover1 (as well as a lot of blitzing) until he can consistently beat man coverage.  This season he will have three of the best WRs in the NFL at creating separation so that should not be an issue. 

[wagon127]

On 5/24/2020 at 3:08 AM, QB Bills said:

The Titans said they used the Bills' defense that game as a blueprint to beat the Ravens in the playoffs. If Allen could have even been average that day, the Bills win easily. 

Im pretty sure, the texans used the same defensive game plan that the ravens had, against us, in the playoff game.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Ok I understand you

 

I think the Bills haven't had a wideout like Diggs before and we've collectively forgotten how a guy like him can improve an offense. If he is running that route instead of Brown it's either a TD or more likely the Ravens aren't in Cover0 because with Diggs on the field you can expect him to win and just throw him open for a TD when you see that look

Yep, that’s all true. You can’t expect Smoke to beat Humphrey 1 on 1 like you can with a player like Diggs. I also think refs will be faster to throw a questionable PI flag with a superstar WR.

 

Diggs + Allen taking another step will open our offense tremendously in difficulty to guard. I expect far fewer games where it feels like pushing a boulder uphill to get a first down. 

[GoBills808]

12 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Typically man coverage is played more against less accurate QBs.  A few seasons ago the QB who saw the most man coverage was Cam Newton.  I remember that because he was Allen’s pro comp in the draft and I read it in that context.  The reality is simple.  Allen will see a lot of Cover0 and Cover1 (as well as a lot of blitzing) until he can consistently beat man coverage.  This season he will have three of the best WRs in the NFL at creating separation so that should not be an issue. 

There are so many other factors that go into what coverage a secondary will line up in I don't even feel like responding but oh well

 

Go find some stats that show a correlation between %man coverage and QB 'accuracy' 

 

The reason Newton and the Panthers saw a ton of man is just as likely because their wideouts were some combination of Funchess, Brenton Bersin, Philly Brown, and Kaelin Clay lmfao

[BarleyNY]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

There are so many other factors that go into what coverage a secondary will line up in I don't even feel like responding but oh well

 

Go find some stats that show a correlation between %man coverage and QB 'accuracy' 

 

The reason Newton and the Panthers saw a ton of man is just as likely because their wideouts were some combination of Funchess, Brenton Bersin, Philly Brown, and Kaelin Clay lmfao

Well, this was the very first hit when I googled it: https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-metrics-that-matter-qbs-against-man-schemes-or-zone

 

Sure, a lot goes into what coverage a defense plays.  But it’s also easy to understand why a less accurate QB would see more man.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

Well, this was the very first hit when I googled it: https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-metrics-that-matter-qbs-against-man-schemes-or-zone

 

Sure, a lot goes into what coverage a defense plays.  But it’s also easy to understand why a less accurate QB would see more man.  

lmfao the top guy on the chart is Aaron Rodgers

and PFF fantasy football column would not be my go-to reference but hey

[BarleyNY]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

lmfao the top guy on the chart is Aaron Rodgers

and PFF fantasy football column would not be my go-to reference but hey

Well, I wasn’t about to do your homework for you so I just went with the first link.  Feel free to educate yourself on your own time.  

[GoBills808]

Maybe just stop typing for a bit

[billsfan89]

Rewatching that game and the Ravens won the game by being better along the line of scrimmage. The Raven's blitzing schemes confused the Bills o-line and led to Josh being constantly under  pressure while the Ravens offensive line wore down the Bills D-line slowly and efficiently. The Bills played a disciplined game and particularly on defense held the team in there. But without better O-line play and more help in the receiving game things wouldn't have been any better regardless of offensive scheme. 

[Billl]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

lmfao the top guy on the chart is Aaron Rodgers

and PFF fantasy football column would not be my go-to reference but hey

Rodgers was second, and he’s the outlier.  The top 5 other than him are Newton, Bortles, Taylor, Carr, and Mariota.  Not exactly a bunch of surgeons.  The opposite end of the spectrum was Brees.  Osweiler was next, but his numbers were horrible against both, so that doesn’t matter much.  Then it was Brady, Stafford, and Cousins.  There’s a pretty strong correlation.  
 

(I’m referencing the chart showing their performance against zone vs man rather than how often they faced it.  There doesn’t seem to by much or any correlation regarding how often they face it.)

Edited May 26, 2020 by Billl

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

Rodgers was second, and he’s the outlier.  The top 5 other than him are Newton, Bortles, Taylor, Carr, and Mariota.  Not exactly a bunch of surgeons.  The opposite end of the spectrum was Brees.  Osweiler was next, but his numbers were horrible against both, so that doesn’t matter much.  Then it was Brady, Stafford, and Cousins.  There’s a pretty strong correlation.  
 

(I’m referencing the chart showing their performance against zone vs man rather than how often they faced it.  There doesn’t seem to by much or any correlation regarding how often they face it.)

Regarding your first bolded: no. You are looking at the chart that gives EPA differential on zone/man. Completely unrelated. We were talking about how often QBs face man vs zone and how that correlates to their supposed 'accuracy'. That's this chart:

 

 

 

And as to your second bolded...considering that was the entire point of the conversation I would have just spared myself the time, personally. Nobody was talking about performance against zone or man coverage. 

[Billl]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Regarding your first bolded: no. You are looking at the chart that gives EPA differential on zone/man. Completely unrelated. We were talking about how often QBs face man vs zone and how that correlates to their supposed 'accuracy'. That's this chart:

 

 

 

And as to your second bolded...considering that was the entire point of the conversation I would have just spared myself the time, personally. Nobody was talking about performance against zone or man coverage. 

Contrary to your posting style of being an unrelentingly insufferable prick, not every comment is a fist fight.  I literally agreed with your comment, but don’t let that stop you from doing what you do.  I’d say you could read the entire post before spouting off and looking like a jackass, but it won’t help.  It seems to be all you know.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Billl