Reason the Dolphins fired their OC

[Bangarang]

4 hours ago, eball said:

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, SOMEBODY couldn’t wait to get in here and trash our OC!

 

The mediocre offense couldn’t POSSIBLY be a by-product of developing a raw QB for two seasons, could it?  Nah...Daboll sucks and McD doesn’t know offense!

 

You’re consistent, I’ll give you that.

Dennison and Daboll aren’t looking good for McD’s credibility for picking OCs.  
 

I don’t think anyone would question McD’s ability to have a good defense. It’s the offense that gives a lot of people cause for concern. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

14 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/dolphins-chad-oshea-fired-patriots-offense-too-complex-young-players-nfl-024041937.html

 

According to a report from the Miami Herald, O’Shea was let go by the Dolphins after friction with teaching the Dolphins’ young roster a playbook with the complexities typically seen in Foxborough. Multiple players reportedly supported the decision to swap out O’Shea for veteran coordinator Chan Gailey.

From the Herald:

 

One player described the situation on offense last season as a “[expletive] show,” noting O’Shea tried to teach an offense that was too complex for a young team and that teaching/instruction during film study was a “disaster.”

 

 

As one player noted, O’Shea tried to run plays that were used in New England, which was predictable because O’Shea had spent the previous 10 seasons there as wide receivers coach.

 

Additionally, a player reportedly said O’Shea made the situation worse by trying to install especially complicated elements of the Patriots offense used by Tom Brady and Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels.

 

So, Chan is back with Fitz now in Miami. 

It would be interesting to see if Miami has the lowest wonderlic score for offensive players.

[Rock'em Sock'em]

10 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Im not sure why everyone thinks our offense is so complex, its really not.  Its actually the opposite.

Typically terminology and long play calls make an offense to be perceived to be more complex.  The longer play calls can give a team more freedom to change blocking assignments, formation, motions, alternate plays, and snap count while essentially running the same concepts - and communicating all of that withing 10-15 seconds in the huddle.  It works for both run and pass.  Buffalo's offense does not appear to be complex to me, but perhaps there is simply more verbiage in the play calls.

[ProcessAccepted]

13 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

This might be us in a year...

Or we may continue to improve as the players over time get more comfortable with a winning type offense. 

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

That was my thought - we suffer from the same problem here.

 

 

Don't know how they draft players in Miami, but one of the main things they look for here is that they've got to be football smart. This is part of the reason why.

 

The reason it works for the Pats is mainly two-fold, they also get football-smart guys and the culture supports the young guys having to work their asses off to get it. If the culture doesn't support it, they'll complain and cause problems. They don't in NE or here.

[TigerJ]

While Daboll certainly is from the Patriots coaching tree, by way of Alabama, I think Buffalo is past the stage where this is a critical issue.  While Josh Allen came into the league as a very raw QB, he's also very smart.  Beane and McDermott also value intelligence in their team building approach.  Every interview I heard this year from a new player, whether drafted or free agent revealed someone who at least appeared to be bright and articulate.  I believe that is by design as the defense is also pretty complex.

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Truth is Daboll has sucked everywhere he’s gone in the NFL as an OC.... fans have a legitimate gripe to question the hire and the results to this point.

 

 

Except here. And as has been pointed out a billion times before, he's been in horrible situations in his previous NFL OC positions. Terrible QBs and front offices that were sinking ships.

 

There's a reason that around the league Daboll is seen as an up-and-comer, and that he got interviews in the off-season. He's widely considered to be doing a fine job here. Yes, a few fans here complain, but that's nearly always true.

 

 

13 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

No it’s really not. Results matter, and to through 2 years the results haven’t really been there. 

 

 

Yes, it really is.

 

Results matter, but so does context. And the context here is that he's been here through a rebuild, and that particularly in his first year this regime was putting almost no resources into the offense outside of Allen himself. And he was supposed to get a year off.

 

Again, he's gotten a head coaching interview and the Bills denied the Giants the chance to interview him for OC. You don't think he's doing a good job. Fine. Most of the NFL does, though.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Bangarang]

20 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Except here. And as has been pointed out a billion times before, he's been in horrible situations in his previous NFL OC positions. Terrible QBs and front offices that were sinking ships.

 

There's a reason that around the league Daboll is seen as an up-and-comer, and that he got interviews in the off-season. He's widely considered to be doing a fine job here. Yes, a few fans here complain, but that's nearly always true.

 

He got one interview.
 

And widely considered to be doing a fine job by who exactly? 
 

Quote

 

Yes, it really is.

 

Results matter, but so does context. And the context here is that he's been here through a rebuild, and that particularly in his first year this regime was putting almost no resources into the offense outside of Allen himself. And he was supposed to get a year off.

 

Again, he's gotten a head coaching interview and the Bills denied the Giants the chance to interview him for OC. You don't think he's doing a good job. Fine. The NFL does, though.

Just like Allen, the excuses are going to be all but dried up after this season. Either we produce an offense in the top half of the league or it’s time to fire Daboll and look at bringing in another QB.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Bangarang

[BillsVet]

14 hours ago, Happy said:

Doesn't Daboll have the same problem?  I recall John Brown mentioning that this offense is the most complex he has been in.  

 

Main complaint with Daboll is how he calls a game.  It lacks vision to me as evidenced in the WC game.  

 

That said, the offense is complex, which just seems like another coach who wants to run his system.  It's not like what Baltimore did with Lamar Jackson identifying a scheme that he could run at this point in his career.  

 

All of this is why I suspect Buffalo loaded up with UFA offensive types last year.  Of course the QB has to grasp the concepts, but the majority of their OL and top 2 WRs were guys with plenty of NFL experience and a RB who is the NFL's version of Methuselah (and I say this as a positive).  

 

Doesn't bode well if they're trying to involve younger players into the scheme.  

[Thurman#1]

Rebuild. Young developmental QB who is seriously improving but has a long way to go. Offensive roster that was a distant second priority in 2018.

 

There is indeed a reason that some fans question Daboll as OC. They mostly don't get it. They don't see that context matters. A lot. 

 

Does he still have something to prove? Sure. But there's a reason that he's getting those interviews.

[Thurman#1]

14 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

He got one interview.
 

And widely considered to be doing a fine job by who exactly? 
 

Just like Allen, the excuses are going to be all but dried up after this season. Either we produce an offense in the top half of the league or it’s time to fire Daboll and look at bringing in another QB.

 

 

OK, I guess there's nothing forcing you to count the interview the Giants asked for but were denied by the Bills. It still exists in reality, though. I'll try to remember to use "be offered interviews" rather than "get" them. As far as indicating what the league-wide opinion on you is, though, it's pretty much the same thing. And that he was offered those interviews when he's coaching a team so early in their life cycle, and an offense that's far more coming together or finding it's feet than already producing at a high level again shows the way that the league sees Daboll.

 

That's who. The consensus on him around the league is he's doing a good job, given what he's had.

 

The offense has to improve? Well, you're right, of course it does, but if they don't ... it is at this point far too early to know what the reason for that will be or whether Daboll will be considered to be a major part of the problem. It certainly could happen that way. Or - especially if Allen improves significantly - they could easily improve a ton and Daboll could be considered one of the main reasons.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Lurker]

11 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Im not sure why everyone thinks our offense is so complex, its really not.  Its actually the opposite.

 

Ah, no.    Joe B of The Athlectic had a story this week about Gabriel Davis' ability to contribute to the Bills as a rookie.   After running just 3-4 routes in college at UCF, this is what he's going to have to learn as a Bill:

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Lurker

[hondo in seattle]

14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Yes.... I’m sure it’s played a part in why our offense has been average at best his first two years here... and every year for him as an OC.

 

Never understood the complex offensive playbook strategy and never really trusted McDermott hiring an OC. Keep it simple stupid. 

 

 

If an offense is too simple, the defense will be to read & react correctly.  Not only does this slow down the offense, it frustrates the players.

 

An offense that's too complicated makes execution (and success) difficult and also frustrates the players.

 

Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.   

[Bangarang]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

OK, I guess there's nothing forcing you to count the interview the Giants asked for but were denied by the Bills. It still exists in reality, though. I'll try to remember to use "be offered interviews" rather than "get" them. As far as indicating what the league-wide opinion on you is, though, it's pretty much the same thing. And that he was offered those interviews when he's coaching a team so early in their life cycle, and an offense that's far more coming together or finding it's feet than already producing at a high level again shows the way that the league sees Daboll.

 

His buddy from NE wanted to interview him for OC. We can count that as an interview since I admittedly forgot about the request. Then again, we’ve seen legitimately terrible coordinators and position coaches constantly get chances because the NFL is all about who you know. 

 

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

That's who. The consensus on him around the league is he's doing a good job, given what he's had.

 

Did you poll all the players, coaches or front office personnel? All of them? 
 

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

The offense has to improve? Well, you're right, of course it does, but if they don't ... it is at this point far too early to know what the reason for that will be or whether Daboll will be considered to be a major part of the problem. It certainly could happen that way. Or - especially if Allen improves significantly - they could easily improve a ton and Daboll could be considered one of the main reasons.

If they don’t improve after 3 years then it’s not far too early to know the reason.
 

McD fired Dennison after 1 year as OC. Did he need more time to know he was a poor OC and part of the problem?

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

Dennison and Daboll aren’t looking good for McD’s credibility for picking OCs.  
 

I don’t think anyone would question McD’s ability to have a good defense. It’s the offense that gives a lot of people cause for concern. 

What McD needs to learn is hiring sub par assistants at the coordinator position have killed so many Buffalo Bills head coaches over the last two decades.

 

We know that Chan Gailey kept hiring the wrong DC's in George Edwards, Dave Wannstedt.

 

Dick Jauron did the same thing starting with OC Steve Fairchild, who left to be a HC in college. To promoting QB coach Turk Schonert to OC, to firing him two weeks before a season started and again hiring a QB coach in Alex Van Pelt to OC. 

 

Doug Marrone and Nathaniel Hackett.  

 

Rex Ryan actually hired two really, really good offensive coaches in OC Greg Roman and Anthony Lynn. He fired the first and promoted the latter to OC to replace him. Both those offensive coordinators have done better than any previous or since, 2015 12th in points, 13th in yards total, alas 31st in passing attempts, 28th in passing yards. #2 in rushing attempts, #1 in rushing yards, #1 in rushing TD's, #1 in yards per attempt. 

 

Stating that, the Bills did have Cordy Glenn at LT, pro bowler Richie Incognito at LG, pro bowler Eric Wood at C in 2015. AND Tyrod Taylor as a running QB along with LeSean McCoy at RB. 

 

Under Anthony Lynn the Buffalo offense did improve on the field somewhat but were held back by QB difficulties. Still, #2 in rushing attempts, #1 in rushing yards, #1 in rushing TD's, #1 in yards per attempt. 

 

What did Rex Ryan in... was his own stupidity in running a defense that wasn't supported by the players on the roster. The man inherited the best defensive line and pass rush in the league and turned it into 31st. Ryan went on to cripple that great pass rush by changing that attack scheme to his scheme in being overly complex (where have I heard that before) Asking his pass rushing D linemen to drop into pass coverage or take on blockers ...so the the not so good linebackers could make a play. Play calls coming in late (where have I heard that before). 

 

Anthony Lynn is still the HC of the Chargers and Greg Roman is the OC of the 2019 14-2 Baltimore Ravens with the #1 offense in points, #2 in yards. 

 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Giants interview makes sense.... Judge coached with a Daboll in NE.... basically the same thing as Flores hiring O’Shea.... interestingly enough the Dolphins offense wasn’t much worse than the Bills offense. 

You do understand this is a results oriented business? You don’t get 4 years to install an offense if your first 3 years demonstrate lackluster results. Daboll is absolutely on the hot seat. This is a make or break year for him here more so than it is Allen, IMO. 

 

I agree! 

 

Lets face it, Brian Daboll drew a ton of interest as a possible head coaching candidate after that Dallas Cowboys Thanksgiving game. The entire NFL world was watching the only game on TV at that time. 

 

 The Buffalo Bills offense and QB Josh Allen looked amazing during that game 356 yards of offense, 34 rushes for 124 yards, 1 TD. Allen 20 of 25 for 259 yards, 2 TDs passing, one TD running and a rating of 120.7. 

 

The play calls were great and the Bills had the better ToP 33:18 to 26:42. Dak Prescott threw 49 times for 355 yards, 2 TDs, one INT. 

 

Carolina had made it known that they were interested in Brian Daboll as their next HC after that Dallas game.

 

 

Then came the Baltimore Ravens game the very next week with the Ravens blitzing 65% of their defensive plays and the Bills offense having literally no answer.. all.. game.. long! Josh Allen sacked 6 times and really nowhere to go with the ball as the Baltimore DB's covered Beasley and Brown very well. Allen went 17 of 49 for 146 yards, 1 TD and a rate of 62.6. That game Daboll calling 39 pass plays into a ferocious Ravens blitz with only 23 run plays. 

 

Needless to say that after this game Carolina lost interest in hiring Daboll as HC as they didn't even interview him. The only team that did interview Daboll for a HCing job were the Cleveland Browns. 

 

The 2020 season schedule looks to be much more difficult at #5 whereas the 2019 schedule was the 6th easiest and looking at the bums at QB they faced it was far easier than that. Darnold with Mono, an aging Eli, Dalton without his best receiver, Brady 2x both losses. Mariota 2-4 who was benched for Tannehill 7-3. Fitz 2x both wins. Wentz loss. Rookie Dwayne Haskins who clearly wasn't ready. Brandon Allen 1-2 who was replaced by Drew Lock 4-1. Baker Mayfield loss. Dak Prescott win. Lamar Jackson loss. Duck Hodges!

Deshaun Watson playoffs, loss. No gimps this season. 

 

Yea, now with Diggs and Zack Moss Bills on the roster, Bills OC will have no excuses about a lack of talent this season. 

[TwistofFate]

6 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Ah, no.    Joe B of The Athlectic had a story this week about Gabriel Davis' ability to contribute to the Bills as a rookie.   After running just 3-4 routes in college at UCF, this is what he's going to have to learn as a Bill:

 

 

 

And compare that to the  West Coast tree...

 

 

As well as the Air Coryell tree

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Where’s FireChan when you need him. 
 

not impressed with what he did here. 

[eball]

8 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Dennison and Daboll aren’t looking good for McD’s credibility for picking OCs.  
 

I don’t think anyone would question McD’s ability to have a good defense. It’s the offense that gives a lot of people cause for concern. 

 

Dennison was fired after one season (and he wasn't McD's first choice to begin with ).  Daboll got raw Josh Allen and Nathan Peterman to work with, along with no WRs, in his first season.  Did you notice any improvement last year?

 

I really don't understand what is going on in some of your minds.

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by eball

[HardyBoy]

There is a HUGE difference between basic and simple. The Bills offense is basic, but not simple, which imo is what you want. You make things complex by combining basic pieces together is creative ways.

 

People who are hoping for a monolithic offensive system where there is no artistry or improve within a structure are confusing me. JA is going to thrive when he can be creative within a framework that he truly understands and can combine basic pieces quickly into super unique creative things on the fly at the line.

 

I'm not sure why people are so hoping we have a simple elementary offense that puts artificial ceilings on players. 

 

You can be overly complex too though where people have to think instead of react, but usually that happens more on defense (see Rex Ryan or Al Golden at University of Miami)

Edited May 23, 2020 by HardyBoy