muppy Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 16 minutes ago, Buffalo619 said: Von Miller yells at others who don’t mask up. I bet he also wears a mask when driving on his own. Who do you think is paying him for his “opinion”? Noone ? seriously I would guess that someone who had personally experienced covid-19 would not want to catch it again which has been proven possible especially due to his having asthma as a preceding medical condition. Do you believe otherwise?
Sherlock Holmes Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: so now the masks don’t prevent virus cells BUT they restrict oxygen Atoms. freelance scientists are lovely. You definitely aren't getting the same oxygen intake and CO2 release as not wearing a mask...
RiotAct Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 looking forward to McDermott clapping furiously on the sideline while wearing an N95 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said: You definitely aren't getting the same oxygen intake and CO2 release as not wearing a mask... and at a significant enough level to exacerbate cardio vascular issues? Dig deeper Watson
Sherlock Holmes Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: and at a significant enough level to exacerbate cardio vascular issues? Dig deeper Watson This is very feasible... Why would players be able to remove the mask during the game at all if they are near their own teammates and coaches and personnel? Why would it be only contact with the opposite team? So keep the mask on the entire game, especially on these OL and DTs who have a hard time breathing as it is during normal game conditions and see what happens...
RiotAct Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Sherlock Holmes said: This is very feasible... Why would players be able to remove the mask during the game at all if they are near their own teammates and coaches and personnel? Why would it be only contact with the opposite team? So keep the mask on the entire game, especially on these OL and DTs who have a hard time breathing as it is during normal game conditions and see what happens... Safety first! 1
The Dean Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 For s#it's sake, NOT the face masks many of you are thinking of. Helmets already have face masks, They are talking about putting some kind of covering on them (think "shield" not mask),. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-testing-n95-surgical-mask-material-on-modified-face-masks-in-hopes-of-fighting-covid-19-spread/ Quote The NFL is doing their part and reportedly testing helmets that include face masks with surgical or N95 material. According to the NFL Players Association's medical director Thom Mayer, NFL engineers and Oakley, who are under contract to make all face visors for the league, are working together to make prototypes that could be used for the 2020 season. Is this really that confusing to you guys? 1
Meatloaf63 Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 6 hours ago, billsfan89 said: I can have an opinion on the foundation of my house but I am going to trust a building inspector. My opinion and Google skills are worthless when it comes to assessing my foundation compared to what a building inspector things. Not always true, building inspectors can be wrong and it’s pretty simple to google local and state codes. A structural engineer would be a better example... 1
Sherlock Holmes Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Dean said: For s#it's sake, NOT the face masks many of you are thinking of. Helmets already have face masks, They are talking about putting some kind of covering on them (think "shield" not mask),. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-testing-n95-surgical-mask-material-on-modified-face-masks-in-hopes-of-fighting-covid-19-spread/ Is this really that confusing to you guys? Why yes, yes it is...
Mr. WEO Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: This kind of takes me aback. If I thought I had 10% chance of death or serious harm at work...I would for reals find a new job, pronto! I think the risk that this age group (football players) have for death is very very low assuming full access to the very best medical care. Probably <0.01%. I'm getting that from a Lancet study saying that 1% of those in their 20s that are diagnosed need hospitalization, and that the case fatality ratio in that age group is low, 0.3%. But for serious harm, I don't think we have any hard data yet. HCW are too busy putting out the fires and looking at the highest risks for the worst outcomes (death) to put a number around morbidity, the risk of stroke, lung damage, and significant deterioration in physical condition. Let's guess that almost all the 1% who are hospitalized are at risk for this, so 1% chance that if you get the disease, you may suffer significant impairment to your "money maker", your physical toolset. You may face a prolonged rehab period to get close to what you were. Are you thinking that players be like "1%? Man that's puny, LETSGO!"? They are all agreeing to play a sport that has, I bet, more than a 1% chance that they will suffer premature debilitating physical or neurological disease. It would be odd, to me, that they would be overly concerned of contracting COVID to the degree that they would be on a ventilator at risk or dying---which is less than 1% for sure in their age/condition group. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: They are all agreeing to play a sport that has, I bet, more than a 1% chance that they will suffer premature debilitating physical or neurological disease. It would be odd, to me, that they would be overly concerned of contracting COVID to the degree that they would be on a ventilator at risk or dying---which is less than 1% for sure in their age/condition group. So we'll put you down for players be like "1%? Man that's puny, LETSGO!" You might be right.
Mr. WEO Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So we'll put you down for players be like "1%? Man that's puny, LETSGO!" lol. the point is that these guys have already fully accepted a higher risk of permanent injury, physically and mentally. Therefore it is ironic that they or their employer would be expending so much energy and concern that they might catch a virus that nearly all of them would be asymptomatic from.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: lol. the point is that these guys have already fully accepted a higher risk of permanent injury, physically and mentally. Therefore it is ironic that they or their employer would be expending so much energy and concern that they might catch a virus that nearly all of them would be asymptomatic from. Ironic? Not Hardly. The difference is a future (dim misty) risk of neurological disease affects only them, whereas a (current) contagious disease is something you can bring home to your wife or girlfriend or family. Also, many of these guys come from communities that are being disproportionately affected. Many of their aunts and uncles and cousins are the ones who are still working in health care settings or essential businesses. Von Miller didn't sound that unconcerned (link above), after what was evidently a mild case that left him "worried" for 4-5 days and cost him 17 days off training and off his food, but he could be an atypical player in more than talent. That's the other thing - a bad case can affect their "money maker", their body. Most of them take their bodies very seriously. If I were guessing, I would guess that you're right, overall, most of the players aren't taking it too seriously. That doesn't mean they shouldn't take it seriously. And it certainly doesn't make it "ironic" 11 hours ago, Buffalo619 said: Von Miller yells at others who don’t mask up. I bet he also wears a mask when driving on his own. Who do you think is paying him for his “opinion”? WTF, man, Von Miller always comes across as a smart, together guy. He just had the disease and said it's still affecting his lungs. Why would one thing someone is paying him for his opinion when it's something he went through and is still working back from? Why put opinion in quotes? Skepticism isn't a bad thing, but "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". I think you'd lose your bet since the quote was that he told the people they should get in their car before they took off their mask.
Mr. WEO Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Ironic? Not Hardly. The difference is a future (dim misty) risk of neurological disease affects only them, whereas a (current) contagious disease is something you can bring home to your wife or girlfriend or family. Also, many of these guys come from communities that are being disproportionately affected. Many of their aunts and uncles and cousins are the ones who are still working in health care settings or essential businesses. Von Miller didn't sound that unconcerned (link above), after what was evidently a mild case that left him "worried" for 4-5 days and cost him 17 days off training and off his food, but he could be an atypical player in more than talent. That's the other thing - a bad case can affect their "money maker", their body. Most of them take their bodies very seriously. If I were guessing, I would guess that you're right, overall, most of the players aren't taking it too seriously. That doesn't mean they shouldn't take it seriously. And it certainly doesn't make it "ironic" Few of them are living in such communities now. Front line workers making a fraction of the money just put on a mask and go to work. Wegmans is packed with people with little to no social distancing--and none of these employers is testing any employee or anyone they come in contact with, let alone testing them regularly,such as is the plan for these players. So from line workers aren't moved by a millionaire athlete's "4-5 days of worry". Again, The risk of contracting the disease, assuming even modest precautions, is low. The risk of becoming seriously ill by contracting the disease is extremely low--lower than the risk of serious harm they already accept at work, so it is ironic for sure. As for their families, players can self quarantine, like other workers at (actual, significant) risk of exposure do. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 10 hours ago, Sherlock Holmes said: You definitely aren't getting the same oxygen intake and CO2 release as not wearing a mask... I don't believe that's true, even of an N95 mask that makes a positive seal to the face. And I speak as someone who has worn professionally fit tested masks at times and who lives with an industrial safety professional who used to issue "confined space" permits so knows a lot about the effect of oxygen and CO2 levels on oxygen INTAKE and CO2 RELEASE. CO2 is present in the atmosphere at a level of about 0.04%. It is dangerous in an atmosphere when it is greater than about 10% - that's 250x buildup to become dangerous. Oxygen is present in the atmosphere at about 20% at sea level and 14% at 10,000 feet. People can get the same oxygen INTAKE and CO2 RELEASE in both situations. So even if the tightest sealing masks change the % of oxygen and CO2 somewhat inside the mask, they normally don't change your INTAKE or RELEASE. The people who can't wear masks or who have trouble with them, are the people with diminished lung function or capacity. Normal people actually get the same INTAKE and RELEASE. This can be shown by monitoring blood gas levels of mask wearers, which was done when the masks were being developed. What is true is that you have to WORK harder to get that same oxygen intake and CO2 release. It's perceptible. It leads to a feeling of fatigue greater than if you were doing the same work and not wearing a mask. It sucks. So if you're in a position of trying to deliver peak human athletic performance, your peak human performance is going to fall off, due to fatigue. Be that as it may - Moot point here. As I understand the proposal, it's not to put actual positive sealing masks on the players, it's to somehow integrate mask material with the face mask. 1
Sherlock Holmes Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't believe that's true, even of an N95 mask that makes a positive seal to the face. And I speak as someone who has worn professionally fit tested masks at times and who lives with an industrial safety professional who used to issue "confined space" permits so knows a lot about the effect of oxygen and CO2 levels on oxygen INTAKE and CO2 RELEASE. CO2 is present in the atmosphere at a level of about 0.04%. It is dangerous in an atmosphere when it is greater than about 10% - that's 250x buildup to become dangerous. Oxygen is present in the atmosphere at about 20% at sea level and 14% at 10,000 feet. People can get the same oxygen INTAKE and CO2 RELEASE in both situations. So even if the tightest sealing masks change the % of oxygen and CO2 somewhat inside the mask, they normally don't change your INTAKE or RELEASE. The people who can't wear masks or who have trouble with them, are the people with diminished lung function or capacity. Normal people actually get the same INTAKE and RELEASE. This can be shown by monitoring blood gas levels of mask wearers, which was done when the masks were being developed. What is true is that you have to WORK harder to get that same oxygen intake and CO2 release. It's perceptible. It leads to a feeling of fatigue greater than if you were doing the same work and not wearing a mask. It sucks. So if you're in a position of trying to deliver peak human athletic performance, your peak human performance is going to fall off, due to fatigue. Be that as it may - Moot point here. As I understand the proposal, it's not to put actual positive sealing masks on the players, it's to somehow integrate mask material with the face mask. Good points, my issue was making them work harder to deal with getting oxygen and releasing CO2. I'm curious to watch some Denver home games with masks. I'm sure they are going to be using minimal impact materials though. Still curiosity peaked especially in Miami and Denver!
transient Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 I have more concern for the coaches. They’re the ones that are more likely to be older and in poor health. If someone dies from this it’s not likely to be a 20-something athlete In peak physical condition, it’s going to be a sleep deprived, junk food driven, out of shape coach. 1 1
JGMcD2 Posted May 22, 2020 Posted May 22, 2020 16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Interesting! Thank you for finding this. Two key take-aways for me is that Miller evidently had a relatively mild case, but needed to take a total of 17 days off from training!!!!! He thinks everyone needs to be tested every day. Also he thinks that people could attend, if they are spaced out. Q: You play a cardiovascular sport that requires conditioning and burst. What concerns do you have about long-term lung damage? A: Taking 17 days off and then trying to get back into it, I really feel it. I still feel my lungs trying to get back in shape. It’s just all the wear and tear that it puts on your lungs. I’ve got asthma on top of that, so to try to run with asthma and then try to run after the coronavirus, that’s what I think some of the shortness of breath comes from. (....) Q: The NFL is bracing for team facilities to reopen and seems to be charging ahead as if the 2020 season will happen as scheduled. If you were the commissioner, knowing the severity of the virus’s effects, how would you push forward? A: If I was Commissioner Miller, I would take notes from the other leagues that are starting up before us. We got soccer coming up in Europe, and they’re going to do mass testing. That’s what we have to do. Every day we need to test all the players. It’s got to be part of the routine. If one person gets this and it goes undetected, then that’s eight. Let’s say [Broncos wide receiver] Courtland Sutton gets tackled and he has the virus. Now you got the other team; they have the virus. I want to make sure all the players and all the staff and everybody coaching and everybody in the front office gets tested every day. Also, if a stadium holds 65,000 people, they might cut it down to about 16,000 people and [spread people] out across the stadium. Everybody is going to have spaces to watch the game. Then you can get some of the real-life feel back, the real-life football back. (.....) Q: Hundreds of people work at NFL team facilities. Would you be nervous to go back to work right now? A: Yeah, and everybody’s got to stay masked up. I want to be safe. I want to make sure I can still deliver football to the fans, but I want to do it as safe as possible. I'm not cutting any corners when it comes to that. Von Miller also has asthma... so I’d bet that was in a factor in it take 17 days for him to get back into the swing of things. Everyone is going to be different. I’ve heard from people in the NFL Offices that the season is going to go on and they will have fans in states that allow it.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 18 hours ago, MJS said: I think it would have to be more like a face shield rather than n95 masks. The masks can be kind of difficult to breath through and if you have football players in high exertion, breathing heavily, I don't think it is feasible. Does sweat pass the virus, or is it only respiratory droplets? Good question on sweat. It's certainly not a transmission mode I've seen discussed. Primary worry: respiratory droplets (as virus likes to reproduce in lungs and nasal airway), mucus. Blood of course. Virus has been found in poop, so fecal transmission not proven but could be a thing. I wouldn't rule it out, because the receptor the virus binds to (ACE2) is found in epithelial cells throughout the body, and I'm not sure anyone has looked specifically at sweat glands yet to see if they express the second protein that facilitates infection (TMPRSS2). Overall I would say if you're close enough that sweat is a factor, you're also close enough that getting snorked and hauked on is happening, so could be moot point. 36 minutes ago, transient said: I have more concern for the coaches. They’re the ones that are more likely to be older and in poor health. If someone dies from this it’s not likely to be a 20-something athlete In peak physical condition, it’s going to be a sleep deprived, junk food driven, out of shape coach. True dat. But players may have homies or family members that fit the same profile as coaches. And as discussed, I think focus on death may miss the point - even a mild disease can apparently knock a healthy Von Miller on his butt for 3+ weeks.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 19 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Von Miller also has asthma... so I’d bet that was in a factor in it take 17 days for him to get back into the swing of things. Everyone is going to be different. I’ve heard from people in the NFL Offices that the season is going to go on and they will have fans in states that allow it. True....but I wouldn't bet the rent money that it's the major factor in it taking a long time to recover. Plenty stories from young people without asthma who found their bout with covid-19 prolonged debilitating, and "full recovery" for a top elite athlete is surely a different matter than "full recovery" for Sally or Sammy Store Shopper. And despite early (and logical) concerns, asthma is not turning up as a risk factor to the point where its absence is noted in several studies as "striking". Hypertension seems to be the bad-boy and uncontrolled >>> controlled. I would love to see football this Fall. I hope it happens. 18 hours ago, LeGOATski said: the material would have to extend from below the neck and under the pads all the way around the helmet or else there's no point. Not sure that's true, but that's just based on thinking about it. My guess is that whoever is trialing this, isn't planning on blockage, just on reduction. It's possible that something that fit in around the jawline and extended around to in front of the ears and up as high as the cheekbones could help, especially in conjunction with the helmet eye shields some of the players already wear. The whole thing just seems farfetched to me, given the intrinsic violence of football.
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