Doc Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: You struggled with Kraft's lawyers' planned defense....mightily. I have just given you the Oliver defense: challenge everything. If he has a TUE in hand, he's got no issue with the league. What's your struggle now? LOL! No, I didn't struggle with Kraft or anyone else since him getting off on a technicality given his money and influence was always a possibility. It's just the lengths you go to to defend some (spare me your vain denials) and accuse others that I find amusing.
Mr. WEO Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mango said: Yeah, and most of it is dumb. Until a few weeks/months ago, if you tested for pot you entered the program. It is all an optics play, not for PED's. Some 22 year old enters the leagues substance abuse program for effing adderall when it has zero use outside of game day. The NFL should give more leeway to off season usage and do more in season testing. The rest of the world, and even the UFC, just adopt USADA and WADA rules and regulations. The NFL gets off way too easy in season, and they make up for it with stupid rules in the offseason. He had it in between his legs when talking to the officer, then reached over and put it in the drivers side door after the officer already saw it? That doesn't make any sense. He likely wouldn't get out of the car with it between his legs. Probably figured he saw it anyway. adderall is a powerful stimulant that would help any individual who is on an intense off season workout routine. This is why NFL players are likely using it in the off season, unless you think there is a high incidence of ADD in that population..... 4 minutes ago, Doc said: LOL! No, I didn't struggle with Kraft or anyone else since him getting off on a technicality given his money and influence was always a possibility. It's just the lengths you go to to defend some (spare me your vain denials) and accuse others that I find amusing. lol, you fought the obvious and inevitable ALL the way on that one doc. The fact that you are STILL saying it was my "defense" of Kraft (as though I "krafted" it myself for his defense team) is proof of what I'm saying. The entire time I was repeating what was reported widely, early and often. Yet you were, typically, were having none of it...to my delight!
Mango Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: He likely wouldn't get out of the car with it between his legs. Probably figured he saw it anyway. adderall is a powerful stimulant that would help any individual who is on an intense off season workout routine. This is why NFL players are likely using it in the off season, unless you think there is a high incidence of ADD in that population..... I am fully aware of Adderall's effects in sports. I was registered with WADA and USADA, living at the Olympic training center for a number of years. It is a stupid ban in the offseason. It has no performance enhancing effects outside of game day, much like high levels of caffeine or cocaine. That means using a bunch of Adderall in May/June, does not make you any better in September/October. Once the Adderall works out of the system, there are no more positive gains. If you are using Adderall to cut weight you will need to take it for weigh ins, which means you would be, testing positive IN competition. Which again, you can't do. Taking it 6 months out for a weigh in then stopping serves zero benefit. The NFL isn't ahead of the curve on this, they are behind it. It is an effort to say, "Look at Ed Oliver on Adderall, lets get him into the substance abuse program because we care and we are a clean game" But then you turn on the TV in September and see that HGH and steroids are in heavy usage and it goes totally ignored. And here we are in May talking about what an "advantage" it is to be using Adderall in the offseason, when its not, and no national or international anti-doping agency would agree. They are banned in competition only for that reason. What you are saying does not have the support of the international sport science community. What has become popular over the last generation or two is Adderall as a recreational drug, not for performance/focus. Feels do not equal reals. Edited May 20, 2020 by Mango 1
NoSaint Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: They do---it's their drug policy. Everything on the list is banned. Taking speed in the offseason gets you mandatory stage 1 substance abuse program with its treatment and testing requirements and game suspensions for violation of those requirements. and he could already be stage 1, we wouldn’t know for sure, right? 1
Mr. WEO Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, NoSaint said: and he could already be stage 1, we wouldn’t know for sure, right? True. 1 hour ago, Mango said: I am fully aware of Adderall's effects in sports. I was registered with WADA and USADA, living at the Olympic training center for a number of years. It is a stupid ban in the offseason. It has no performance enhancing effects outside of game day, much like high levels of caffeine or cocaine. That means using a bunch of Adderall in May/June, does not make you any better in September/October. Once the Adderall works out of the system, there are no more positive gains. The NFL isn't ahead of the curve on this, they are behind it. It is an effort to say, "Look at Ed Oliver on Adderall, lets get him into the substance abuse program because we care and we are a clean game" But then you turn on the TV in September and see that HGH and steroids are in heavy usage and it goes totally ignored. And here we are in May talking about what an "advantage" it is to be using Adderall in the offseason, when its not, and no national or international anti-doping agency would agree. They are banned in competition only for that reason. What you are saying does not have the support of the international sport science community. What has become popular over the last generation or two is Adderall as a recreational drug, not for performance/focus. Feels do not equal reals. "If you play in a sport where weight matters, (Adderall) can help you kill those last few pounds because it changes your metabolism and causes the burning of fat. Secondly, it changes your perception of fatigue. You take (Adderall), and the purpose is to not feel tired so you can perform better for longer. It can also improve your focus - --USADA former Chief Science officer Larry Bowen “It masks fatigue, masks pain, increases arousal — like being in The Zone,” said Dr. Gary Wadler, past chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s Prohibited List Committee. “It increases alertness, aggressiveness, attention and concentration. It improves reaction time, especially when fatigued…Gary Wadler, WADA Adderall could be used to maintain a high intensity workout regimen, as you know. especially in the offseason when motivation may be more difficult. There shouldn't be a question that it would improve the performance of an off-season workout regimen meant to prepare for a grueling NFL season.. I should take it! For "recreation", it's not really a fun time drug. And it's not my policy--it's the NFL's.. Edited May 20, 2020 by Mr. WEO
Motorin' Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mango said: This one is weird. The whole thing is weird. One report had the beer between his legs. Another report has it in his passenger side door. Normally with these DUI's I am quick to just shake my head cause the guy is an idiot. But this seems inconsistent. https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/court-records-buffalo-bills-ed-oliver-admitted-to-drinking-taking-adderall-prior-to-houston-dwi-arrest/285-df7cfad6-f1d3-422b-bab3-9e99dbe845c5 Yeah, at this point I want to see evidence that he was actually doing 80 mph and swerving in and out of lanes. If they have evidence, why wasn't he charged with reckless driving? I'm wondering if the officer's car that observed him has a camera? It turns out it was around 9pm, not 4 in the morning. Someone spotted him and called the police? I'm not saying Ed wasn't speeding and swerving. But it wouldn't be the first time someone called the cops on someone because they thought he looked suspicious driving a nice vehicle. Edited May 20, 2020 by Motorin'
Doc Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, Motorin' said: Yeah, at this point I want to see evidence that he was actually doing 80 mph and swerving. I'm wondering if the cars with the officer that observed him have cameras? There's a lot of stuff that needs to be sorted-out. What's most important is the BAC (and if there is one, tox screen). 3
Mango Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: True. "If you play in a sport where weight matters, (Adderall) can help you kill those last few pounds because it changes your metabolism and causes the burning of fat. Secondly, it changes your perception of fatigue. You take (Adderall), and the purpose is to not feel tired so you can perform better for longer. It can also improve your focus - --USADA former Chief Science officer Larry Bowen “It masks fatigue, masks pain, increases arousal — like being in The Zone,” said Dr. Gary Wadler, past chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s Prohibited List Committee. “It increases alertness, aggressiveness, attention and concentration. It improves reaction time, especially when fatigued…Gary Wadler, WADA Adderall could be used to maintain a high intensity workout regimen, as you know. especially in the offseason when motivation may be more difficult. There shouldn't be a question that it would improve the performance of an off-season workout regimen meant to prepare for a grueling NFL season.. I should take it! For "recreation", it's not really a fun time drug. And it's not my policy--it's the NFL's.. I will bow out of this after this one, it is talking in circles. This whole back and forth started because I thought the NFL did not do enough interms of identifying in season and out of season testing and banned substances. I understand it is their rules, I just happen to disagree with them and so does WADA, especially on the Adderall and (previously) pot issues. Yes there are obviously performance benefits to Adderall. That is not up for debate. But they are absolutely temporary, which is why it is banned IN competion (for the same reasons that caffeine at certain levels is banned IN competition) and NOT OUT of competition. I could snort a line of Adderall in front of a WADA or USADA rep in December, pee in a cup the next day, and as long as I test clean at the world championships in August, there is no problem. There are no long term positive effects from taking Adderall while training out of season, that will effect in season performance from a physiological perspective. It is not like timing your cycle properly with steroids, HGH, beta blockers, etc. Think of it this way, somebody who has AHDH takes adderall, they use it to maintain focus and control. If they stop taking adderall, they don't magically become more focused. You are also overvaluing the NFL offseason and undervaluing most other professional athletes (not baseball haha). If you are a track athlete, you might compete a hand full of times during the year. If you row, you might only go to one race, and that is the world championship. Yet these guys are ON 48-50 weeks per year. I know for myself, I was at about 20 hours of sport specific work per week. That is actual time moving. So if you are doing 4 x 10 minute sets, with 8 minutes rest, that is 40 minutes of work. Then there was lifting, cross training, stretching, cool down, warm up, watching film, etc. on top of that. It is a full time gig at every sport. Football players aren't in some special world in terms of work and time put in. Their bodies just take a wild beating for 4 months with the physicality of the game. 26 minutes ago, Motorin' said: Yeah, at this point I want to see evidence that he was actually doing 80 mph and swerving. I'm wondering if the cars with the officer that observed him have cameras? I am guessing he was . But not necessarily because he was drunk. I posted earlier in the thread, I used to drive trailers as part of my job (40 foot trailer/60 foot load on it), and construction zones with no shoulder are a total B-Word. At night or light traffic I would change lanes all the time through them. A lot of people call and report trailers driving. I have had 3 calls for me just being in the left lane going 80+ and passing. My company didn't have contact info on the pick up, just branding. So people would google me while driving, to call the office, just to say I was in the left lane.
Mr. WEO Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mango said: I will bow out of this after this one, it is talking in circles. This whole back and forth started because I thought the NFL did not do enough interms of identifying in season and out of season testing and banned substances. I understand it is their rules, I just happen to disagree with them and so does WADA, especially on the Adderall and (previously) pot issues. Yes there are obviously performance benefits to Adderall. That is not up for debate. But they are absolutely temporary, which is why it is banned IN competion (for the same reasons that caffeine at certain levels is banned IN competition) and NOT OUT of competition. I could snort a line of Adderall in front of a WADA or USADA rep in December, pee in a cup the next day, and as long as I test clean at the world championships in August, there is no problem. There are no long term positive effects from taking Adderall while training out of season, that will effect in season performance from a physiological perspective. It is not like timing your cycle properly with steroids, HGH, beta blockers, etc. Think of it this way, somebody who has AHDH takes adderall, they use it to maintain focus and control. If they stop taking adderall, they don't magically become more focused. You are also overvaluing the NFL offseason and undervaluing most other professional athletes (not baseball haha). If you are a track athlete, you might compete a hand full of times during the year. If you row, you might only go to one race, and that is the world championship. Yet these guys are ON 48-50 weeks per year. I know for myself, I was at about 20 hours of sport specific work per week. That is actual time moving. So if you are doing 4 x 10 minute sets, with 8 minutes rest, that is 40 minutes of work. Then there was lifting, cross training, stretching, cool down, warm up, watching film, etc. on top of that. It is a full time gig at every sport. Football players aren't in some special world in terms of work and time put in. Their bodies just take a wild beating for 4 months with the physicality of the game. Yeah I would be on adderall for that for sure. lol. I wouldn't doubt that many Olympic and other pro athletes are on speed between competitions (so they would test negative on race day). Why not, right? A full time gig of intense training seems to pair well with a drug that "increases focus, wards off fatigue and pain", no? Keeps you in that "zone" as the WADA head described. makes sense to me. We can agree that in competition is the most obvious advantage for adderall. Edited May 20, 2020 by Mr. WEO 1
Jerry Jabber Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) On 5/17/2020 at 10:18 AM, MAJBobby said: once it gets pled down to Wet Reckless. Nada. Niet, Zilch I'm thinking a game or two. Nigel Bradham got pulled over and arrested for weed and the charges got dropped (if I remember correctly), and he still was suspended for a game. Edited May 20, 2020 by Jerry Jabber
Bangarang Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Motorin' said: Yeah, at this point I want to see evidence that he was actually doing 80 mph and swerving in and out of lanes. If they have evidence, why wasn't he charged with reckless driving? I'm wondering if the officer's car that observed him has a camera? The cameras in cop cars aren’t constantly recording during the entire shift. There likely isn’t going to be video of him driving unless the officer turned them on prior to the stop. Quote It turns out it was around 9pm, not 4 in the morning. Someone spotted him and called the police? I'm not saying Ed wasn't speeding and swerving. But it wouldn't be the first time someone called the cops on someone because they thought he looked suspicious driving a nice vehicle. Oh please Edited May 20, 2020 by Bangarang
Sig1Hunter Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, IgotBILLStopay said: i see it as a lawyer (and former prosecutor) who knows the ins and outs of fses talking about them. pls do explain what i am missing. The former prosecutor is nothing but a selling point. He’s a defense attorney trying to peddle his wares. Those stats you quoted are correct. However, the context here is that those studies referenced were the initial validation studies done by NHTSA and the Southern California Research Institute. Those were laboratory only studies. Officers were brought in, and administered ONE test (either the HGN, walk and turn, or one leg stand). They didn’t talk to the test subject and smell the odor of alcohol on their breath, or hear slurred speech. They didn’t see their driving pattern. They only gave them one test in a lab setting. When a certain number of clues were detected (4 out of 6 in the case of HGN, 2 out of 8 in the walk and turn, and 2 out of 4 in one leg stand) the officer was asked if they believed the person was over a .10 (the limit at the time). Officers made a correct decision the percentages you quoted. That includes incorrect decisions in both directions (over .10, when the subject was under AND under .10 when the subject was over). Again, lab setting without any other indicators other than 1 test. On their face, they look poor. But in reality, those percentages are pretty darn good under those contexts. What that attorney (and every other DUI defense attorney) explicitly ignores in his advertisement is that since then there have been many, many field validation studies conducted that show the entire three test battery is well over 90% (sometimes 95%) valid when making arrest/no arrest decisions in the field. The tests are valid. In fact, they are scientifically reliable and valid. https://one.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/NHTSA/menuitem.554fad9f184c9fb0cc7ee21056b67789/?vgnextoid=1e2fcd8c4e7bff00VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&vgnextchannel=d8274dc9e66d5210VgnVCM100000656b7798RCRD&vgnextfmt=default Edited May 20, 2020 by Sig1Hunter
IgotBILLStopay Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sig1Hunter said: The former prosecutor is nothing but a selling point. He’s a defense attorney trying to peddle his wares. Those stats you quoted are correct. However, the context here is that those studies referenced were the initial validation studies done by NHTSA and the Southern California Research Institute. Those were laboratory only studies. Officers were brought in, and administered ONE test (either the HGN, walk and turn, or one leg stand). They didn’t talk to the test subject and smell the odor of alcohol on their breath, or hear slurred speech. They didn’t see their driving pattern. They only gave them one test in a lab setting. When a certain number of clues were detected (4 out of 6 in the case of HGN, 2 out of 8 in the walk and turn, and 2 out of 4 in one leg stand) the officer was asked if they believed the person was over a .10 (the limit at the time). Officers made a correct decision the percentages you quoted. That includes incorrect decisions in both directions (over .10, when the subject was under AND under .10 when the subject was over). Again, lab setting without any other indicators other than 1 test. On their face, they look poor. But in reality, those percentages are pretty darn good under those contexts. What that attorney (and every other DUI defense attorney) explicitly ignores in his advertisement is that since then there have been many, many field validation studies conducted that show the entire three test battery is well over 90% (sometimes 95%) valid when making arrest/no arrest decisions in the field. The tests are valid. In fact, they are scientifically reliable and valid. https://one.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/NHTSA/menuitem.554fad9f184c9fb0cc7ee21056b67789/?vgnextoid=1e2fcd8c4e7bff00VgnVCM1000002c567798RCRD&vgnextchannel=d8274dc9e66d5210VgnVCM100000656b7798RCRD&vgnextfmt=default thanks. i vaguely remember that there was a selection issue with the 1998 study you reference. Didn’t 3/4 of the sample have BAC above 0.08 - which means if the officers arrested everyone they would have had 75% accuracy anyway. I don’t remember the details but am pretty sure the 1998 study has some questionable validity due to providing little indication of the likelihood of false positives, which is the real issue in these cases. That being said, I am already at my ignorance frontier - so would be happy to agree with you if you are an expert on the matter. Additionally, doesn’t it look like the officers were wrong here since BAC was only 0.03? Edited May 20, 2020 by IgotBILLStopay
Sig1Hunter Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, IgotBILLStopay said: thanks. i vaguely remember that there was a selection issue with the 1998 study you reference. Didn’t 3/4 of the sample have BAC above 0.08 - which means if the officers arrested everyone they would have had 75% accuracy anyway. I don’t remember the details but am pretty sure the 1998 study is invalid for providing little indication of the likelihood of false positives, which is the real issue in these cases. That being said, I am already at my ignorance frontier - so would be happy to agree with you if you are an expert on the matter. Additionally, doesn’t it look like the officers were wrong here since BAC was only 0.03? I didn’t see where Ed’s BAC was released, however the arrest/no arrest decision is made based upon impairment observed. If his BAC was .03, it doesn’t mean it was a bad arrest. It can legally be presumed that alcohol wasn’t causing the impairment at that level (in jurisdictions that I’m familiar with), but drug impairment remains a possibility. Hopefully a Drug Recognition Expert got involved to help confirm or refute that suspicion. edit: cops aren’t perfect (obviously) and arrests are occasionally made with low blows and no drugs. I just took some umbrage with the notion that the FSEs are unreliable and invalid. A trained and experienced DUI cop is a fantastic evaluator of impairment. Edited May 20, 2020 by Sig1Hunter
IgotBILLStopay Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 41 minutes ago, Sig1Hunter said: I didn’t see where Ed’s BAC was released, however the arrest/no arrest decision is made based upon impairment observed. If his BAC was .03, it doesn’t mean it was a bad arrest. It can legally be presumed that alcohol wasn’t causing the impairment at that level (in jurisdictions that I’m familiar with), but drug impairment remains a possibility. Hopefully a Drug Recognition Expert got involved to help confirm or refute that suspicion. edit: cops aren’t perfect (obviously) and arrests are occasionally made with low blows and no drugs. I just took some umbrage with the notion that the FSEs are unreliable and invalid. A trained and experienced DUI cop is a fantastic evaluator of impairment. Hey I did not mean to impugn the police in any way. Just that FSTs themselves only indicate the need for further testing and “failing a test” by itself doesn’t indicate guilt. Since the BAC etc. was likely administered, we will know soon whether Oliver was impaired or not. Just cautioning people not to vilify Oliver till all details are known. Also, the very fact the Bills are including Oliver in their offseason plan is a good indicator his legal troubles are surmountable. 2
Warcodered Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 5 hours ago, Motorin' said: Yeah, at this point I want to see evidence that he was actually doing 80 mph and swerving in and out of lanes. If they have evidence, why wasn't he charged with reckless driving? I'm wondering if the officer's car that observed him has a camera? It turns out it was around 9pm, not 4 in the morning. Someone spotted him and called the police? I'm not saying Ed wasn't speeding and swerving. But it wouldn't be the first time someone called the cops on someone because they thought he looked suspicious driving a nice vehicle. The witness said he was swerving in the article the deputy trails him and sees him going 80 in a 45 and passing in a no passing zone.
Warcodered Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 https://buffalonews.com/2020/05/20/buffalo-bills-ed-oliver-arrest-court-date/ not really anything new besides the court date. Though it does talk about the conflicting reports.
Motorin' Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, Warcodered said: The witness said he was swerving in the article the deputy trails him and sees him going 80 in a 45 and passing in a no passing zone. Got it. Same principle could apply for the initial call. And I'm still curious why he wasn't hit with a reckless driving if he was going 35mph over the speed limit. 1
Warcodered Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Motorin' said: Got it. Same principle could apply for the initial call. And I'm still curious why he wasn't hit with a reckless driving if he was going 35mph over the speed limit. I mean do they do both a reckless driving and a DWI because I mean when isn't a DWI reckless driving?
Motorin' Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Warcodered said: I mean do they do both a reckless driving and a DWI because I mean when isn't a DWI reckless driving? Reckless driving is for excessive speeding. It's a separate type of charge than a DWI. And since it was one of the reasons cited for pulling him over, I'm wondering why he wasn't charged with it? One possibility is that he wasn't actually speeding.
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