Minority HC or GM could improve team’s draft position with new proposed resolution

[FireChans]

Just now, whatdrought said:

 

Let teams that care to win do what they need to be able to win. The Steelers hired a black guy and have been well rewarded for it. Same with the Ravens, same with the Colts. Meanwhile, the bills hired a black guy to run their team and he was a disaster. The broncos hired a black coach and he was awful. The jets rode with a black coach for about 3 years too long, and now he’s back in the spot he belongs and thriving. 
Meanwhile, the bills hired a bunch of garbage white guys for 20 years and constantly lost because of it. Winning is the only equalizer in this league. 
 

Forcing equality is not equality. I’m fine with equal opportunity, that ain’t what this is. 
 

Furthermore, as I’ve debated this before (maybe with you?), you can’t assume causation because of correlation. You can’t say “there’s only x# of black coaches, therefore there’s a racist action against black coaches. That doesn’t work in a vacuum. You have to demonstrate the black (or any other minority, not just black) candidates that are getting passed over exclusively for their race.

There are zero Korean head coaches in the NFL. Fire McD, hire Park Hang-seo, get the #1 pick, trade down, then rehire McD.

[mjt328]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I wonder how this is going to go on this board. ? it’s a very diverse group here.

 

and yes forcing people to get hired is a problem.  But the lack of diversity at the top levels in the nfl is a serious issue.  And I don’t think it’s racist but rather the buddy buddy system in NFL front offices.  Crappy coaches and executives get passed around because of who they are friends with.  While being a player is a meritocracy, nfl jobs are the opposite of that. 

 

How so?

 

Football is not a very popular sport outside of the U.S./North America.  It's not something played in Asia.  It's not something played in Middle Eastern countries.  It's not played in Africa or even in Mexico or South America.  Which means the "diversity" angle is going to be pretty much limited to white and black.

 

And as I mentioned already - the percentage breakdown of the NFL vs. the United States population is actually very close.

12-14 percent of the U.S. population.  Currently 12.5 percent of the NFL head coaches.

 

If minority candidates are being passed over BECAUSE of their race/skin color, then that's a problem.  But there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE or suggestion that is happening.  And I personally resent installing blatantly racist rules into the sport, just so the NFL can hit their little diversity check marks.  It's total B.S.

 

[DCOrange]

8 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

What a blatantly racist idea.

 

If you believe the United States has a problem with RACISM, then you don't FIX IT by giving bonuses/perks to organizations for HIRING BASED ON RACE.  

It's completely ass-backwards.  Honestly, I don't know how people come up with this ridiculous garbage.  Maybe instead of testing the players for CTE, they need to check the folks in the NFL offices for brain damage.

 

By the way, African Americans make up 12-14 percent of the U.S. population, according to the latest census figures.

If you took that percent and multiplied it by 32 teams, that comes to exactly 4.48.  Which means you would expect to see 4-5 African American head coaches in the NFL at any given time.  There are currently FOUR in the league.  

 

This is a completely made-up and manufactured "problem."

 

Now do the demographics of NFL players versus coaches. It is pretty clearly a problem. This proposal might be going too far to address it, but if someone were to argue that going too far is better than maintaining the status quo, I wouldn't necessarily laugh it off.

 

I give it a near 0% chance of passing the vote so this likely won't matter, but it's pretty clearly a significant step up in addressing the issue compared to the Rooney Rule which almost literally does nothing.

[whatdrought]

3 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Now do the demographics of NFL players versus coaches. It is pretty clearly a problem. This proposal might be going too far to address it, but if someone were to argue that going too far is better than maintaining the status quo, I wouldn't necessarily laugh it off.

 

I give it a near 0% chance of passing the vote so this likely won't matter, but it's pretty clearly a significant step up in addressing the issue compared to the Rooney Rule which almost literally does nothing.

So swinging the racist meter the opposite direction is a positive improvement? 
 

Also, by the same logic, shouldn’t teams get incentivized for drafting and signing white players and beating back that racial disparity?
 

Give the Panthers an extra first for trotting out the only white starting RB. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by whatdrought

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, mjt328 said:

 

How so?

 

Football is not a very popular sport outside of the U.S./North America.  It's not something played in Asia.  It's not something played in Middle Eastern countries.  It's not played in Africa or even in Mexico or South America.  Which means the "diversity" angle is going to be pretty much limited to white and black.

 

And as I mentioned already - the percentage breakdown of the NFL vs. the United States population is actually very close.

12-14 percent of the U.S. population.  Currently 12.5 percent of the NFL head coaches.

 

If minority candidates are being passed over BECAUSE of their race/skin color, then that's a problem.  But there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE or suggestion that is happening.  And I personally resent installing blatantly racist rules into the sport, just so the NFL can hit their little diversity check marks.  It's total B.S.

 

Appreciate the post.  What if hockey, which is like 95% white, had like 25 minority coaches?  I mean that would be wild and they would be super progressive but it won’t make a ton of sense right?

 

i think the point is that crappy white coaches and exes get completely recycled over and over again.  Take Brian Daboll.  Imo, I’m sure he knows a ton of football but his resume is awful.  How many minority candidates are getting hired over and over again with that crappy resume?  He was friends with Polian’s son in high school (2 other guys got GM jobs who were friends with Brian Polian too) and has made the right connections.  So good off him but he is not getting jobs because of his resume.  He is getting jobs because of his connections.  

[Gugny]

Perhaps more black people should get some shots at college-level coaching gigs, then, through time - there would be more black coaches qualified to come to the NFL as assistants - giving them the proper amount of experience necessary to become a legitimate candidate for an NFL HC job.

 

What do the coaching staffs look like for the most successful college programs out there?

 

I don't follow college football, but I do listen to sports radio.  Every year, there are high profile college HC vacancies and I don't recall any minorities being discussed for those positions.

 

I also don't think too many NFL HCs have been hired for an NFL HC without years of college coaching and - usually - years of NFL assistant coaching experience.

 

That shouldn't change.

 

[mjt328]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s complicated for sure.  It would nice to have a rational conversation but it’s like discussing the best rap song on a country music board.  
 

the number of black players in the nfl is ~70%.  So when you understand it that way, the number of Black guys in leadership positions is extremely low.  
 

again this is different than being a player where you can judge how they perform on their field.  These jobs are very subjective and they are based on who you know.  It’s like a country club and it’s hard to become a member. 
 

not sure this is the right way but if you were a minority, it’s a start I guess. 

 

The NFL had an article about 5-6 years ago, stating that LESS THAN 20 percent of head coaches were former players.

It's two completely different professions, and the racial makeup is completely irrelevant.  African Americans aren't being turned down for head coaching jobs.  It's just a small percentage that are actually interested in pursuing that avenue.

 

And if the NFL is 70 percent black, why shouldn't the white population be kicking and screaming?  

Why don't we offer incentives for teams to draft/roster white players?  The answer is because it's racist.  And it's just as racist to do it in reverse.

 

Sorry if I sound upset (I do usually like to have rational conversations), but I'm not having a great day and this kind of nonsense is really ticking me off at the moment.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

Assistant coaches being allowed to interview for coordinator positions is a good idea.

 

Giving preferential draft picks to those hiring minority candidates is a bad idea. 

[DCOrange]

3 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

So swinging the racist meter the opposite direction is a positive improvement? 
 

Also, by the same logic, shouldn’t teams get incentivized for drafting and signing white players and beating back that racial disparity?
 

Give the Panthers an extra first for trotting out the only white starting RB. 

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it, but I don't think those that say yes to your first question are necessarily wrong. I can totally understand both sides of it.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

So swinging the racist meter the opposite direction is a positive improvement? 

Honestly, it’s hard conversation to have if you’re aren’t a minority.  It’s going to be hard to fully get it.  Same way that a minority shouldn’t think every white person is racist because they are against affirmative action.  It would be great to think every person is given an equal shot to succeed in America but it’s simply not true.  And In sport where you’re the majority of the population and you’re still not getting the leadership jobs, it kinda sucks.  
 

It’s  a tough conversation 

[FireChans]

Has anyone pointed out that the people voting on this (the owners) could instead just hire more black coaches and personnel people instead of passing a stupid rule like this?

[HappyDays]

What news story are they trying to bury by putting this out there? That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, mjt328 said:

 

The NFL had an article about 5-6 years ago, stating that LESS THAN 20 percent of head coaches were former players.

It's two completely different professions, and the racial makeup is completely irrelevant.  African Americans aren't being turned down for head coaching jobs.  It's just a small percentage that are actually interested in pursuing that avenue.

 

And if the NFL is 70 percent black, why shouldn't the white population be kicking and screaming?  

Why don't we offer incentives for teams to draft/roster white players?  The answer is because it's racist.  And it's just as racist to do it in reverse.

 

Sorry if I sound upset (I do usually like to have rational conversations), but I'm not having a great day and this kind of nonsense is really ticking me off at the moment.

 

I mean this with the upmost respect because I’ve been guilty of this.  But why not post when you are in a better place?  Because for This board that I’m guessing is overwhelming white and probably of a certain philosophy, I think it is a pretty civil conversation right now.

 

and with all due respect, the comparison of being a player in the nfl and being a coach/ executive is painfully terrible.  Every person can try to play in the nfl.  Not every person is friends with Bill Polian’s son or had a dad like Todd Haley (college golfer, dad was a Steelers exec) to get hook up with.  It’s not a valid comparison in the slightest. 

[formerlyofCtown]

57 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-to-present-new-resolutions-to-rooney-rule

Maybe time to stop watching after that.  It's probably a good idea to give minorities everything we have and we can just go live in a cave or something.  

 

No offence intended toward anyone but the teams with the worse record get the better pick for a reason.

Not surprised that you're confused C. Biscuit and this topic is not a good idea.  

Edited May 15, 2020 by formerlyofCtown

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Assistant coaches being allowed to interview for coordinator positions is a good idea.

 

Giving preferential draft picks to those hiring minority candidates is a bad idea. 

I agree.  Definitely not the right idea but I give the nfl, one of the slowest to change leagues, credit for attempting to think outside the box. 

Just now, formerlyofCtown said:

Maybe time to stop watching after that.  It's probably a good idea to give minorities everything we have and we can just go live in a cave or something.

Yikes 

[artmalibu]

I think the owners will vote it down.  It would be an advantage to fire the coach one year and GM the next to move up the draft board.  No to mention a team with a nonwhite long term head coach would not be able to take advantage of the system.

 

Are there better nonwhites not getting jobs?

[whatdrought]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Honestly, it’s hard conversation to have if you’re aren’t a minority.  It’s going to be hard to fully get it.  Same way that a minority shouldn’t think every white person is racist because they are against affirmative action.  It would be great to think every person is given an equal shot to succeed in America but it’s simply not true.  And In sport where you’re the majority of the population and you’re still not getting the leadership jobs, it kinda sucks.  
 

It’s  a tough conversation 

I don’t think you’re trying to do this, but that smells slightly of trying to invalidate someone’s opinion based on their race, which is racist. I’m not a minority, but I don’t have to walk a mile in a minorities shoes to have a proper understanding of what is and what isn’t equality. That’s the standard that should be fought for. Equality. Show me inequality (causation, not correlation) and we can work together to find solutions to the issues. Even if I were to submit to the overarching idea that lack of minority NFL people is due to racism (which i don’t), this measure is just additional inequality and racism on the flip side. 
 

 

 

14 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it, but I don't think those that say yes to your first question are necessarily wrong. I can totally understand both sides of it.

Okay, so it isn’t about the injustice of racism then, it’s about which race benefits from racism. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by whatdrought

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Now do the demographics of NFL players versus coaches. It is pretty clearly a problem. This proposal might be going too far to address it, but if someone were to argue that going too far is better than maintaining the status quo, I wouldn't necessarily laugh it off.

 

I don't know, I feel like if any institution in America is insulated from racism it's the NFL. There is already an incentive to hire the best candidate for the job - win more games, make more money. Many coaches started out as players and obviously there are more enough black players that could follow that track. If the point is that there's too much nepotism in the NFL, of course there is. I just don't think this solves that problem. I'd like to see some examples of qualified black candidates that didn't get interviewed or hired as well. The NFL is too competitive for teams to be making racist hiring decisions.

Edited May 15, 2020 by HappyDays

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

I don’t think you’re trying to do this, but that smells slightly of trying to invalidate someone’s opinion based on their race, which is racist. I’m not a minority, but I don’t have to walk a mile in a minorities shoes to have a proper understanding of what is and what isn’t equality. That’s the standard that should be fought for. Equality. Show me inequality (causation, not correlation) and we can work together to find solutions to the issues. Even if I were to submit to the overarching idea that lack of minority NFL people is due to racism (which i don’t), this measure is just additional inequality and racism on the flip side. 
 

 

 

I think it’s a great back and forth.  If you are minority who struggled to get your foot in the door for so long in this country, you would take every opportunity you have to get ahead.  If you are a white man, it sucks to lose on an opportunity that you are more than qualified for because of your skin color.  
 

Why does Matt Patricia get 3 years while Steve Wilkes gets one and will never get again?  

[formerlyofCtown]

6 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

I don’t think you’re trying to do this, but that smells slightly of trying to invalidate someone’s opinion based on their race, which is racist. I’m not a minority, but I don’t have to walk a mile in a minorities shoes to have a proper understanding of what is and what isn’t equality. That’s the standard that should be fought for. Equality. Show me inequality (causation, not correlation) and we can work together to find solutions to the issues. Even if I were to submit to the overarching idea that lack of minority NFL people is due to racism (which i don’t), this measure is just additional inequality and racism on the flip side. 
 

 

 

Okay, so it isn’t about injustice of racism then, it’s about which race benefits.

Creating a competitive advantage for someone based on their race is racism. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by formerlyofCtown