Malazan Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 Did I miss out on the chance to get upset about something that hasn't happened? 1 1
Orlando Buffalo Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 16 hours ago, Mango said: Nearly 60% of college players are black. Nearly 70% of the NFL are black. When thousands work through the highest levels of the sport (NCAA, NFL) you should see more representation on the coaching and FO side just by the sheer proportions. There was a time when black kids weren’t QB’s because “they weren’t the most qualified”. Women see the same problem. Most HC for women’s sports are men. It’s not that there aren’t enough qualified women. That is borderline insulting. The comment about black QBs makes me think you are comparing Warren Moon to someone though I have no clue who. Black QBs 30 years ago were treated poorly, now we recognize Lamar, Russell, and Patrick as the studs they are, so I once again ask who has not been given a fair shake? I think you actually think you can simply go "Math!!!" To prove a point but greatness is an individual thing not a group thing. 15 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Because teams have started approaching the Rooney Rule like a tick box and have stopped interviewing the most qualified minority candidates. This I agree is a problem- but who is the candidate they passed over? McBeane was not the most qualified by most people but I think we all agree they have been successful.
QLBillsFan Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 So they are the checking the box on minority candidates due to the Rooney rule ? Not bringing in potential strong minority candidates? Didn’t the Bills interview AL and MCD? So AL was in fact a strong candidate. Why would a team if required to -being in lower quality minority candidates? Because they in fact only want a white coach who may or may not be the best for the Billion $ enterprise they run ?
BigBillsFan Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 Best 2 young QBs are black Best RB is white Best rapper last 20 years was white Best golfer last 20 years is black We are no longer in a brawn world, but a brains world. If you miss opportunity by hiring someone based on race you lose out. If an owner is going to hire someone based on race he losses millions. He hires mostly black athletes to begin with. GM "Mr. Owner we have a great WR but he's black" Owner: "Nope, I want a white one like Thielen. While you're at it find a white RB too." Seriously? That's how dumb you think owners are? There are more white coaches period, it's not a race thing. Most white guys who weren't athletes but loved sports became coaches. Most black coaches were once athletes, that's not true of guys like John Gruden or the Shanahans. The problem is at the top of the funnel, not the bottom. Most Sean McVays wanted to be a coach and studied their rears off in the teens and 20's, that's your competition. If this were really about race they would make the same quota for athletes but that's exceptionally dumb and everyone would scoff at it rightfully so. 1 1 3
GunnerBill Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 34 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said: This I agree is a problem- but who is the candidate they passed over? McBeane was not the most qualified by most people but I think we all agree they have been successful. On the contrary. McDermott was one of the most qualified and "ready" assistants in the whole league. Anyone who had been paying attention knew for a couple of years he had the makeup to be a successful Head Coach. His record as a defensive coordinator of running disciplined and prepared defenses was very impressive. Beane, sure he was maybe not considered in quite the same way, but he had interviewed for the 49ers job earlier in 2017. I have talked already about the minority Head Coach candidates I think are overdue. The last two years' worth of hires have been pretty uninspiring in my honest opinion. 37 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said: So they are the checking the box on minority candidates due to the Rooney rule ? Not bringing in potential strong minority candidates? Yep. That is the biggest problem IMO.
RaoulDuke79 Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 I see a spike in Ancestry.com traffic. What % of color does one have to be to be considered a person of color? 1 1 1
whatdrought Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: My argument is less about black head coaches who deserved a 2nd shot but didn't get one.... it is more about white head coaches who don't getting them and taking opportunities away from others. The fundamental problem I have with NFL Head Coaching hire is the nepotism and who you know culture. That brings with it a sort of indirect discrimination because it further inbeds those cliques and a lot of black coaches are not in those same groupings. I don't think anyone here thinks that if the best interview an NFL team has is by a black coach they wouldn't hire him. What is an issue is making sure the people who would be capable of being that outstanding candidate get in the room. That is where the rule as currently constituted is failing. It sounds like your issue has more to do with bad hiring practices, and not specifically racism. That I can definitely see. I wouldn’t be sure there aren’t those within this discussion who genuinely believe that NFL staffing decisions are made based solely because of race. Maybe not on this board, but definitely In the world at large. I personally agree that those stale hiring practices exist, but we’re seeing teams win because of going outside of that, while others hold onto it and lose. I think that is the natural correction. I also think the NFL would be better served if it was better at making sure new buyers actually care to own a successful sports franchise, instead of a boring money-maker.
GunnerBill Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, whatdrought said: It sounds like your issue has more to do with bad hiring practices, and not specifically racism. That I can definitely see. I wouldn’t be sure there aren’t those within this discussion who genuinely believe that NFL staffing decisions are made based solely because of race. Maybe not on this board, but definitely In the world at large. I personally agree that those stale hiring practices exist, but we’re seeing teams win because of going outside of that, while others hold onto it and lose. I think that is the natural correction. I also think the NFL would be better served if it was better at making sure new buyers actually care to own a successful sports franchise, instead of a boring money-maker. Yes I don't think it is direct racism. But the bad hiring practices disproportionately seem to impact minority coaches who are not 2nd and 3rd generation NFL people and don't have the same contacts, or the experience, or the attitude and etiquette that gets you those jobs. That is indirect discrimination. I should say it isn't only minority coaches who are affected. Bruce Arians would never have got a Head Coaching job if Chuck Pagano hadn't got cancer. Why? Because he doesn't mix in those circles, he doesn't behave like the conventional buttoned up guy. He walks in, he curses, and he tells you the truth. But it isn't good enough to just say "oh well the teams who make bad decisions will suffer for it." Because minority coaches are suffering for it too. The NFL has to do more to tackle that. The draft pick idea is fundamentally flawed but the desire to make the Rooney Rule work again is not. I commend the League for not burying its head in the sand. 1
Buffalo716 Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said: Best 2 young QBs are black Best RB is white Best rapper last 20 years was white Best golfer last 20 years is black We are no longer in a brawn world, but a brains world. If you miss opportunity by hiring someone based on race you lose out. If an owner is going to hire someone based on race he losses millions. He hires mostly black athletes to begin with. GM "Mr. Owner we have a great WR but he's black" Owner: "Nope, I want a white one like Thielen. While you're at it find a white RB too." Seriously? That's how dumb you think owners are? There are more white coaches period, it's not a race thing. Most white guys who weren't athletes but loved sports became coaches. Most black coaches were once athletes, that's not true of guys like John Gruden or the Shanahans. The problem is at the top of the funnel, not the bottom. Most Sean McVays wanted to be a coach and studied their rears off in the teens and 20's, that's your competition. If this were really about race they would make the same quota for athletes but that's exceptionally dumb and everyone would scoff at it rightfully so. Jon gruden played college football You can't say he wasn't an athlete
whatdrought Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 31 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Yes I don't think it is direct racism. But the bad hiring practices disproportionately seem to impact minority coaches who are not 2nd and 3rd generation NFL people and don't have the same contacts, or the experience, or the attitude and etiquette that gets you those jobs. That is indirect discrimination. I should say it isn't only minority coaches who are affected. Bruce Arians would never have got a Head Coaching job if Chuck Pagano hadn't got cancer. Why? Because he doesn't mix in those circles, he doesn't behave like the conventional buttoned up guy. He walks in, he curses, and he tells you the truth. But it isn't good enough to just say "oh well the teams who make bad decisions will suffer for it." Because minority coaches are suffering for it too. The NFL has to do more to tackle that. The draft pick idea is fundamentally flawed but the desire to make the Rooney Rule work again is not. I commend the League for not burying its head in the sand. I can agree with much of this, and I don’t hate your idea of having a list, though I’m not sure how practical it is in reality. Piggybacking off of that, I wonder if there would be a way for the NFL to create a better networking process instead of relying on the current set up? Maybe a database of resumes, videos, etc. that would give decision makers a place of reference other than just calling the same 5 old hands to find who the hot candidate is. The database for minorities and non, or course. I get that those not getting opportunity are also hurting, but at the end of the day, winning is the only motivator that works in the NFL. Pegs hired a garbage retread, got a garbage product, wised up and found someone off the beaten path (a non-sexy pick) who has brought a winning product to hear. The cardinals went off the map and got something working better for them. The panthers are trying that this time. We’ll see. I think the changes are happening, but it is a slow process.
GunnerBill Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, whatdrought said: I think the changes are happening, but it is a slow process. Well anyone who knows anything about me will know my trust in any "free" market to correct itself is zilch. It is disproven 20th century economic theory writ large. You want change you need intervention. Sometimes that has to be sledgehammer to crack nut. But so be it.
Norcalbillsfan Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 Kinda seems like a "hey look we are so bold and trying" publicity move knowing full well it won't pass. I don't understand it, cuz the only color owners care about in football is green and what does money come from? Winning. The guy who you think is gonna make you money gets the job.
GunnerBill Posted May 16, 2020 Posted May 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Norcalbillsfan said: Kinda seems like a "hey look we are so bold and trying" publicity move knowing full well it won't pass. I don't understand it, cuz the only color owners care about in football is green and what does money come from? Winning. The guy who you think is gonna make you money gets the job. Yes but that guy has to get in the room first. That is why we have the Rooney Rule and that is why the time is right to look at its proper functioning again. I would never, ever tell an NFL team who to hire. But I will tell many of them they are not even interviewing the right people. The last two or three hiring cycles have been depressingly awful. Some of that is turnover rates among coaches are depleting the talent pool too quickly (if you have half a dozen openings every year it doesn't take long to run out of capable guys) but some of it is that narrow minded, blinkered thinking is not getting the right people into the room often enough. I am 100% not a Paul DePodesta acolyte but a lot of his observations about the back to front way NFL teams hire Head Coaches is absolutely spot on in my assessment.
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