THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Michael Jordan and McDermott's Process

[SoCal Deek]

Wow, you guys are long winded in this thread.  The Bills are moving in the right direction primarily because they appear to have drafted well on both sides of line of scrimmage...and especially up the middle with Allen, Singletary, Oliver and Edmunds. If any of those high picks flames out the future would look much different. Especially Allen and Edmunds. I’m sure it’s BOTH coaching and character.

[Shaw66]

26 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Wow, you guys are long winded in this thread.  The Bills are moving in the right direction primarily because they appear to have drafted well on both sides of line of scrimmage...and especially up the middle with Allen, Singletary, Oliver and Edmunds. If any of those high picks flames out the future would look much different. Especially Allen and Edmunds. I’m sure it’s BOTH coaching and character.

Long-winded is my trademark.  

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Long-winded is my trademark.  

What I find interesting is that the Bills management staff has pretty much ignored WR in the draft. With the exception of Zay Jones, a significant flame out, they’ve not gambled on any WRs to pair with their young QB. They appear to be building the team up the middle of the field. A philosophy I agree with!

[iinii]

On 5/13/2020 at 1:52 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I hate to be that guy, and it hurts saying it, but Jordan's personality is strikingly more similar to that of Brady's than McDermott's

 

Thank you. Jordan was a phenomenal player guided by a Zen Master, similar to, as you point out Brady and Belichick. So far McD is a good coach trending in the right direction, while Jordan is still the greatest.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

What I find interesting is that the Bills management staff has pretty much ignored WR in the draft. With the exception of Zay Jones, a significant flame out, they’ve not gambled on any WRs to pair with their young QB. They appear to be building the team up the middle of the field. A philosophy I agree with!

Very clearly inside out and down the middle.  First thing McDermott did was get two safeties and let Gilmore go.   Middle.  

 

Next season it was Allen and Edmunds.   Then it was Oliver and Morse.  Middle, middle, middle.  

 

All the while they were filling in at wideout with the best they could find, without making it a priority.  Even Brown and Beasley weren't top-talent guys.  When they were comfortable up and down the middle of the field, they went after Diggs. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Shaw66

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

What I find interesting is that the Bills management staff has pretty much ignored WR in the draft. With the exception of Zay Jones, a significant flame out, they’ve not gambled on any WRs to pair with their young QB. They appear to be building the team up the middle of the field. A philosophy I agree with!

they picked up 3 WRs with this years draft picks. 

[SoCal Deek]

28 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

they picked up 3 WRs with this years draft picks. 

Yep....it not in the early rounds. Shaw is correct. The strategy has been right there for everyone to see. I’m guessing the next draft investment will be to start restocking the O Line with younger players.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Yep....it not in the early rounds. Shaw is correct. The strategy has been right there for everyone to see. I’m guessing the next draft investment will be to start restocking the O Line with younger players.

I’m a big fan of their plan and execution. On o line yeah I can see them drafting tackles and guards next year. Prob time to look at safety too. 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Mango]

On 5/16/2020 at 7:17 AM, stuvian said:

I don't think Jordan was fun to be around. I do think he was all powerful and ruled by fear. I think he was more powerful than his coach, his owner and the commissioner. Not only was he bigger than the sport, during his reign he was the sport.

His ridicule of his GM would have gotten any other player fired or traded. The other Bulls teammates were carefully chosen so as not to overshadow him or threaten him. They were role players.

The only one he didn't bully was Rodman who cannot and will not be controlled. But Rodman held himself to the same standard as Jordan because he is internally driven. As long as he delivered on the court his off court life was his own. We may never see a team sport dominated by a sole individual like Jordan again. 

I personally don't see much of what lessons from this can be translated to the Bills. I think we may have the best coach/GM combo in football and we clearly have a program where if you don't commit, you are sent packing regardless of talent. Maybe Stefon Diggs will be our Michael Jordan.

I came here to say this. There is absolutely no Jordon or Phil Jackson on this team. If anything Phil’s time in Chicago might be closer to Marv Levy where his greatest accomplishment was managing his roster and getting buy in. Although I think Phil has a better basketball mind than Marv did football. Phil Jackson is probably the greatest HC in US pro sports history. 
 

Also if MJ was anything less than the absolute greatest of all time, he would have been passed around the league. He was an A-hole. He got away with what he did because he transcended the league. The way he behaved only motivated because of the same reason. Don’t get me wrong, he might be the most competitive guy on the planet to a borderline psychotic level. But he was flat out hurtful and wrong. That whole Kwame Brown saga is bonkers to say the least. Hell, the dude just recently stonewalled Barkley, one of his best friends of 30+ years, because he said he has too many yes men around him. 

[Mr. WEO]

Anyone who didn't understand how and why Jordan is the best NBA player of all time should know now after watching that series. 

 

It's all about who you play with and who you had to play against.  Just getting out of the East to the finals in that era was brutal.  First the Celtics, then Pistons, and later the Pacers.  Every one of those teams was stacked.  And the playing style was brutal.  You had to be tough mentally and physically.  None of this describes the NBA today....

[Richard Noggin]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Anyone who didn't understand how and why Jordan is the best NBA player of all time should know now after watching that series. 

 

It's all about who you play with and who you had to play against.  Just getting out of the East to the finals in that era was brutal.  First the Celtics, then Pistons, and later the Pacers.  Every one of those teams was stacked.  And the playing style was brutal.  You had to be tough mentally and physically.  None of this describes the NBA today....

Dammit I loved the NBA and specifically the East in the 90s. Was a Knicks fan, which was tough. But what a physical and emotional contest back then.

[major]

On 5/13/2020 at 1:52 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

I hate to be that guy, and it hurts saying it, but Jordan's personality is strikingly more similar to that of Brady's than McDermott's

 

Then Brady with the bucs will look something like this 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

On 5/14/2020 at 2:28 PM, Shaw66 said:

Maybe I'll respond to both of your posts, both of which I think are very good.  I'll start with this one, which I agree with.  

 

I agree completely that there's a difference between having a system, which McDermott clearly has, and a system that translates into high level success.   And I agree that I believe McDermott has both, even though he obviously hasn't had the success yet.   I agree with a point some, maybe you, have made, that the question about McDermott is whether he has plateaued as a coach and if not, when will he.   Unless he shows he can do more, he won't get where he needs to go. 

 

Before I talk more about that, let me say that there's nothing in the OP that says McDermott is going to be a big winner.   It's simply a discussion of the approach that McDermott is taking.  It's a discussion of the thinking behind the decisions to let some people go and to acquire certain kinds of personalities for the team.   There's also nothing in the discussion that says that every personnel decision Beane and McDermott have made is correct. It's a discussion of their approach to team building.  

 

You are correct, however, because you pay attention to what people say, that I think McDermott IS going to be a big winner.   I think the Bills are on the road to being the next long-term successful franchise, right behind the Patriots run, and even possibly as good as the Patriots run.   Why do I think that?   A combination of things.   I agree with what is often said, that the culture of the franchise has to be aligned properly from top to bottom.  I think the Bills have that.   They have long-term committed owners who are solidly behind the men running the team.   That includes a willingness to pay them, so I don't think it's likely that either Beane or McDermott will be leaving any time soon. 

 

They have a coach and a GM whose objective is sustained, long-term excellence; they aren't interested in a sprint to the top followed by a rebuild.   They want to get good and stay good, like the Patriots did.   To do that they need a QB who has all the right attributes:  Competitiveness,  brains, work ethic, personality and leadership skills.   They got that.  

 

The owner, coach, and GM also have to have patience, and they have that.   Patience while everyone in the organization learns how to have that kind of long-term excellence.  So, for example, I'm not surprised that McDermott's teams haven't had the offensive flair or spark we'd like, because McDermott has spent his entire coaching career up until Buffalo learning about defense.    He demonstrated that he learned a lot about defense, climbing the ladder in Philadelphia, then Carolina and now Buffalo, where very quickly he built a very good defense by getting rid of almost everyone he inherited.   It took him years to learn defense like that, and it's going to take him some time to become excellent at offense.   Why do I think he will become excellent at offense?   Because he has the characteristics he wants in his players, competitiveness, brains, hard work.    He has detailed written goals prepared for him by Beane, McDermott himself and others in the organization.   He will do what he's always done, which is to work and study until he achieves those goals.   Belichick's Browns teams regularly ranked in the high teens and twenties in offensive points and offensive yards, and his Patriots teams weren't consistently good offensively until his fifth or sixth year there, so the fact that McDermott hasn't done it in three years really doesn't worry me all that much.   If it takes him three more years to figure it out, his QB will just be coming into his prime and they'll be set for a ten-year run.  

 

So I have a lot of confidence that it's happening, right before our eyes.   Astute fans, like you, will sit back, watch it, enjoy it and appreciate it.   I just think I'm a little bit ahead of you in seeing that it's coming.   Call it optimism if you want, but I don't think it's optimism.   I think it comes from analyzing and seeing that the Bills have put all the pieces in place.    It didn't happen exactly by design.   We've been lucky to get the right owners, the owners figured out what to look for in a coach and found it, and together they found the right GM.   There was luck involved throughout.  We could have gotten Bon Jovi.   McDermott could have come out a year earlier.   Carolina could have figured out they should fire Gettlemen and promoted Beane, Allen could have gone earlier in the draft or been a bust.   So, sure, it was luck or happenstance or whatever one might want to call it.   All I know is that it's all come together now and unless something unexpected happens, it's going to be a beautiful thing. 

 

Before people start blasting away, let me say that I see that the weak link in all this is Allen.   I fully believe that Allen will be a Hall of Fame quarterback.   I've said before, he strikes me as being most like Elway.   I think Beane will keep doing his magic, and I think McDermott will get better and better at what he does.   The question for me isn't whether McDermott will plateau; the question is whether Allen will.   I don't think so, but he's still pretty far away from where he has to be.   I think that tune will begin to change this season.   I think the combination of his continuing growth and the addition of serious firepower at the offensive skill positions will move Allen up into or near the top 10 QBs this coming season.   After that, I expect him to be regularly part of the MVP discussions for many season to come.  But, as I say, that's just me. 

1. On whether McDermott has plateaued or not? I don't think so. When he came to Buffalo it was all about establishing a physical run game, leading with defense, the same lines we heard from Jauron, Marrone and Rex. Last year McDermott showed a willingness to go for it on 4th-Down, and to pass the ball more often. The Bills investment in WR further establishes a willingness to get out of the 60/40 to 50/50 run split and go more modern. Frank Gore being flushed is a good sign. 

 

2. The Patriots dominated for 20-years. I don't think any franchise, Bills included, are going to replicate what they did in the near future. It's unprecedented. 

 

3. I am thankful the Pegula's kept the Bills in Buffalo. I think McDermott is steady, I think Beane is savvy with a better mix of aggressiveness than Whaley had. But when you say its all come together now, I don't see it yet. The Bills went 10-6 with an easy schedule last year. To see the Bills whip Dallas on Thanksgiving was as proud of the Bills as I have been in 15 years. But the Playoff game left me with a familiar feeling -  trying to salvage a moral victory from a loss that should have been a win. The only thing that matters is ending the 1995 Playoff win drought. 

 

4. Fully believe "Allen will be a Hall of Fame quarterback" - See I don't think that at all. Statistics say that is going to be a rare outcome. Out of all the players ever in the NFL, all the Quarterbacks, 26 are in the HoF. Allen is a longshot to make it. 

 

5. I can see the Bills having some level of success in the coming years. Being a steady Playoff team. But I can't expect Super Bowl appearances and AFC East Titles. We've never seen that outside of 1988 - 1993. If Allen is a Top 10 QB and MVP type player, we'll get there. But that is a statistical longshot. Allen doing that is an outlier to the entire scouting process. A low-production, high tool player from a small D1 school. It'd be rare. 

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Dammit I loved the NBA and specifically the East in the 90s. Was a Knicks fan, which was tough. But what a physical and emotional contest back then.

 

There is no chance LeBron's Cavs would have gotten out of the East alive past those early 90's knicks (Ewing, Oakley, Rivers, Mason, Starks)  and definitely the late 90's Knicks (Ewing, Houston, Larry Johnson, Spree, Dennis Scott)...there would have been more body bags and stretchers than wins for the Cavs.

 

Oh, and either Pat Riley or Jeff Van Gundy vs any combo of Mike Brown, Tyron Lue or Dave Blatt (LOL).