THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Michael Jordan and McDermott's Process

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Jordan did not whine; if he got calls by referee he worked harder not try to get referees to get a pass.  Bad comparison. 

 

You're talking personality.  You're correct.  Jordan didn't whine.  

 

I was talking competitiveness.  Both of them were off the charts in that category. 

[Saxum]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

You're talking personality.  You're correct.  Jordan didn't whine.  

 

I was talking competitiveness.  Both of them were off the charts in that category. 

 

My coach used to tell players "Work harder, stop complaining" - that is what Brady did not do so he is not competitive. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

My coach used to tell players "Work harder, stop complaining" - that is what Brady did not do so he is not competitive. 

That may not be sportsmanlike, but it doesn't mean Brady isnt an intense competitor.  

 

Words actually have meaning. You can't just change what a word means because you dont like Brsdy.

[LB48]

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Excellent point.  Wish I'd thought of it.  

 

And that's why Trent Murphy is on the team.  

 

You see it in the youngsters, too.  You see it in how Singletary and Moss run.   Knox has it.   Fromm has it.   McDermott wants intense guys who also will commit to the team.  

I so agree about Fromm.  The more I read about him regarding his leadership abilities, work out habits and commitment to WIN he may be a great asset to the team!

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

I think it explains McBeane’s desire to have a strong veteran leader in every position room to help push, teach, and hold accountable the young guys in that room.  That’s why players like Gore and DiMarco end up on the Bills’ roster.  They are valued beyond just their on the field ability by Beane and McDermott.

 

 

 

Agreed. Great point.

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Happy said:

McD may want to win, but can he develop the gameday tactics to win consistently, especially against playoff caliber teams?  The week 16 game vs NE and the WC game vs Texans both say no, not right now.  Like this team, McD and his staff are all works in process.  How will it turn out?  Well, as long as this season (assuming it is played) is a positive step forward from last season, then there is reason for optimism.

 

It's not just the players who need to get better, it is McD and his staff that need to show the kind of winning fire that Michael Jordan did; right now I'm not sure they have that kind of leadership, at least not on the coaching staff, as McD is too low key and conservative. There needs to be a get-in-your-face kind of guy who challenges others among the players; probably the closest we have to that right now is Micah Hyde and that may be a stretch.

 

I don't think McD is that kind of coach; rather I suspect he tells the guys what he wants to see from them and lets the leaders emerge.  Most of the team is young, and some of the young guys need to step into this role; i.e. Josh, Edmunds, someone else.  Time for the young guys to start stepping up.

 

 

Disagree.  Why couldn't Hughes fill this role?  Murphy is just a FA pickup who isn't dominant on a consistent basis and is overpaid.  He'll rack up a bunch of stats against a favorable matchup, then get overpowered and pushed out of plays the next week.  Plus he is terrible against the run and screen plays as he is undisciplined in setting the edge.

 

 

Coaches don't have to be fiery. They have to be committed, but there are tons of wildly successful coaches who are low-key. Hell, Belichick is low-key. Landry, Nick Saban. They aren't screamers. They're workers. And so is McD.

 

And as for why Hughes couldn't fill the role, it's because that's not who he is. Hughes is a talent, but we never hear much about him being a leader. He isn't that guy, and Murphy is. The role they are talking about is a role based not on production, but on personality, leadership and pure drive. That's, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, probably why they liked Gore and DiMarco so very much. Hughes doesn't appear to be that one guy at the position that this FO likes.

 

 

12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't really no the new players, but "vocal and got there the hard way" is what we're talking about here.   

 

McDermott would have loved Fred Jackson.  

 

 

Agreed. And, I'm guessing, Chris Kelsay, a guy who was loved by the coaches at the time just for these reasons.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, Chaos said:

First, I have no complaints about McDermott's results to date. If we don't win a playoff game this season, I probably will start to fear Marvin Lewis syndrome creeping into the team. But as of now, the aggregate results are acceptable.  Next, I want everything in the original post to be true.  However, I am not convinced it is true.
 

I have a hard time separating Jordan's competitive nature from his talent.  I am short and lack athletic ability, bless me with 1000x Jordan's burning desire to win, and it would mean nothing to an NBA team.
 

My understanding is that the average NFL head coach spends 100 hours a week working during the season.  Here the headline from an article written in 2006. "No Sleep Till Touchdown NFL coaches, the hardest-working men in human history." I think the entry point to be a consistent winning NFL coach is to be in the top 0.1% of the general population in terms of competitiveness.   Any NFL coach who is not part of that group will likely not be an NFL head coach for long.  

I believe  McDermott is part of the top 0.1% group. I am just not convinced that it provides the team any particular edge vs. the competition. McDermott will put the work in.   If he is a really talented coach, his teams will win. If his talent is average, the teams over time will perform at an average level.

In terms of competitiveness providing insight to the players for the team, I imagine that there is some effort + desire + talent = production formula that exists even if it can't be easily quantified. I also expect, at the NFL level, the standard deviation for talent is much greater than the standard deviation for effort and desire. I think the teams that win the most consistently are the teams with the best talent (including coaching).  If McDermott's coaching talent equal's Michael Jordan's basketball talent, Bills fans are in for a great long ride. If McDermott's coaching talent equal's Michael Jordan's baseball talent, maybe not so much, notwithstanding the burning desire.

 

 

Based simply on what we've already seen of McDermott's record, it seems clear to me that you're wrong about this.

 

They've put together a consistently excellent defense without stars, without spending much money. And that defense has driven this team. That's all McDermott. Well, some Leslie Frazier thrown in, maybe, but McDermott's scheme has paid off in overperformance with terrific consistency. His results are a lot better than acceptable so far, though I'd certainly agree with anyone who said he still has a lot to prove. I'm sure he'd agree.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, stevewin said:

You said it much more diplomatically than I could.

 

To me there couldn't be a more terrible comparison (not aimed at you, just my true feeling)  To me Brady is a cheating douche who has cheated throughout his career to win, and his "competitiveness" manifests as tantrums when things don't go his way.  There is absolutely no comparison to the qualities Jordan showed with regard to working and willing himself and his teammates to be the absolute best they could be.

 

BTW - such a great show - so great to see Jordan doing his thing - amazing.  How anyone could not say he is the best ever is beyond me - no one touches him as far as I'm concerned. 

 

 

I get the cheating thing totally, though I've always felt that most of that's on the FO rather than Brady, with the exception of the ball pressure thing, of which he was pretty clearly guilty.

 

But as for tantrums, that's just a bad frame on what for a player we like would be called competitiveness or lighting a fire under their tails or keeping everyone committed, or getting in people's faces, and so on. You look at guys like Ed Reed or James Harrison or Lawrence Taylor or for that matter Jim Kelly. Think they didn't scream at people as much as Brady?

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Based simply on what we've already seen of McDermott's record, it seems clear to me that you're wrong about this.

 

They've put together a consistently excellent defense without stars, without spending much money. And that defense has driven this team. That's all McDermott. Well, some Leslie Frazier thrown in, maybe, but McDermott's scheme has paid off in overperformance with terrific consistency. His results are a lot better than acceptable so far, though I'd certainly agree with anyone who said he still has a lot to prove. I'm sure he'd agree.

Thurm -

 

I agree with this.   I think the NFL is about coaching, not about talent, and it's clear that the Bills have won with coaching.   The whole point of the excitement caused by the off-season is that this is a well-coached team that has now added some premier talent (Diggs), some solid starting talent (defensive acquistions), and some promising rookie talent.  

 

Win with coaching.  Win a lot with coaching and talent.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

15 hours ago, stevewin said:

You said it much more diplomatically than I could.

 

To me there couldn't be a more terrible comparison (not aimed at you, just my true feeling)  To me Brady is a cheating douche who has cheated throughout his career to win, and his "competitiveness" manifests as tantrums when things don't go his way.  There is absolutely no comparison to the qualities Jordan showed with regard to working and willing himself and his teammates to be the absolute best they could be.

 

BTW - such a great show - so great to see Jordan doing his thing - amazing.  How anyone could not say he is the best ever is beyond me - no one touches him as far as I'm concerned. 

 

To me he's the greatest player at the most difficult position in sports.  6 championships, 3 MVPs, 4 super bowl MVPs.  Drafted in the 6th round, not an elite athlete or elite arm - he got where he is with hard work, determination, and a competitive spirit. 

 

I hate the guy, i think he probably deflated balls, but to say he's a crybaby and a cheater and thats the only reason for his success?  That's unfair to him.  The guy has fought with teammates, coaches, everything - thats a tantrum to you... but leadership when jordan does it?  Guys still playing at age 42, not because he wants money - but because he wants to win.  And i think he wants to prove that he can do it without the patriots after they basically walked away from him. 

[billieve420]

The Bills have always been a team that lacked that killer instinct. They played hard and were competitive over the years but they weren't the type of team like the Patriots who was out to embarrass and humiliate the other team.

 

That is something I want to see moving forward from this team to truly know they have arrived. When you have a team on the ropes you deliver the knockout punch and force them into submission. 

[Happy]

49 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

The Bills have always been a team that lacked that killer instinct. They played hard and were competitive over the years but they weren't the type of team like the Patriots who was out to embarrass and humiliate the other team.

 

That is something I want to see moving forward from this team to truly know they have arrived. When you have a team on the ropes you deliver the knockout punch and force them into submission. 

 

Totally agree.  This is the problem with McDermott right now.  He doesn't put the opposing team away when he has them beat, rather he lets them hang around.  If the Houston Texan game didn't ring a bell, nothing will.

[BillsInWilmingtonNC]

I can't wait for us to win our 6 championships!!!!

[Chaos]

20 hours ago, dorquemada said:

 

The defense introduces one Rex Ryan into evidence

Is he still a head coach?  Did his level of desire change from his first year with the jets to his last year with the Bills?

[marky]

Sure you win.

So did Stalin.

If it wasn't for Magic Johnson's tragic and shocking news, Jordan would have been just another millionaire in gym shorts.

 

Let's not delude ourselves. Ships sail because of the weather.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

But the Bills have always been this team right?

 

The little engine that could, the try-hard band of misfits. 

 

That's all Dick Jauron talked about. A broken record of working hard, studying the tape, correcting mistakes. 

 

Doug Marrone was the same way. "Earning the right to win". Brandon pitched him as an innovator, instead he a task-master. He'd seen it all, he'd done it all, and he was happy to tell you that.

 

McDermott has largely said the same things. 

 

McDermott and Beane came in and gutted the old Whaley guys - Watkins wasn't competitive, Dareus never gave you fully committed professional vibes, Cordy Glenn, Reggie Ragland, the Ronald Darby trade. But in their places they tried to put in the veterans they felt comfortable with, guys like Jordan Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, Chris Ivory, Joe Webb, Mike Tolbert,  Derek Anderson, Vontae Davis.  

 

I think largely those moves blew up in their faces. They inherited Kyle Williams, Beane wasn't here when Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer were signed, Lorenzo Alexander. 

 

The real change I have seen is McDermott willing to go for it on 4th Down more, pass it more. I think the Bills finally have a FO that understands it takes talent to win in the NFL. Rex Ryan thought he could line up and run over people with the run game. That's 1981 football. The Bills invested in a young quarterback and have largely drafted better under Beane, and so you actually have some young players who are good on this team, and have been aggressive in the draft, FA, and trades. Beane has also managed the cap well, the extra cap space gained has been used to add bodies to the offensive line and improve the skill position players. They moved off Jeremy Kerley, Kelvin Benjamin, promoted Levi Wallace. Now they still have tendencies to fall back into the pattern - Frank Gore was this, trying to sign Greg Olsen was this, Josh Norman is this to some degree. 

 

But for the most part, the Bills can practice what they preach about competition, because they actually have a roster with a mix of veterans and skilled younger players. 

 

The Bills aren't delusional anymore about what it takes to win. It takes talent and depth. Unlike Marv Levy as GM and Buddy Nix, we have a GM that realized you have to get your own franchise QB (not take other teams backups and try to luck into a QB) and draft well. 

 

  

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thurm -

 

I agree with this.   I think the NFL is about coaching, not about talent, and it's clear that the Bills have won with coaching.   The whole point of the excitement caused by the off-season is that this is a well-coached team that has now added some premier talent (Diggs), some solid starting talent (defensive acquistions), and some promising rookie talent.  

 

Win with coaching.  Win a lot with coaching and talent.  

 

And depth. 

 

The Drought Bills (and even the first two years under McDermott) were thin. 

 

If guys went down, you were starting practice squad players and guys off the street. 

 

Doing what the Dolphins did this year in the draft - trade their starting LT, draft his replacement, trade your best WR, draft his replacement. 

 

Instead of Whaley's "dust settler" guys, Beane actually fills the roster with a variety of replacements. 

[foreboding]

Nice write-up!

I have absolutely loved The Last Dance. I grew up in the Jordan era and he felt so secretive back then. This show is giving me ten years of stuff I wanted back them, now, all at once.

I agree, Jordan was so unique, that one man could will his team to follow him. Durant doesn't do that, Harden doesn't. Jordan was special.

Those men bled for him out of fear that usually evolved into deep respect. In the moment, I gather that many of them did not like him, but with the benefit of perspective (years) they have grown to appreciate what he did for them.

 

I do think there are parallels in football. Certainly Tom Landry comes to mind, and he had his best player as a willing soldier (Staubach, of course).

Bill Parcells, also led with fear and intimidation. Of course, the top Parcells protegee is Belechik and his long-time will soldier, the GOAT. Belechik is still afraid of Bill Parcells.

 

I agree that competitiveness is the key element, but how the Bills arrive at it is far different with Sean McDermott.

He's creating accountability and the same desire, but with growth mindset and respect and not intimidation. It is the McDermott way. He encourages honest men to learn together, be accountable and not to bull#### or blow smoke up each others collective asses.

 

Sean and Brandon are building a team with competitive guys who care for one another, and subsequently, will bleed for the man next to them.

We are probably going to be winning for a long time. It is a by-product of leadership and growth mindset.

Edited May 14, 2020 by foreboding

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

But the Bills have always been this team right?

 

The little engine that could, the try-hard band of misfits. 

 

That's all Dick Jauron talked about. A broken record of working hard, studying the tape, correcting mistakes. 

 

Doug Marrone was the same way. "Earning the right to win". Brandon pitched him as an innovator, instead he a task-master. He'd seen it all, he'd done it all, and he was happy to tell you that.

 

McDermott has largely said the same things. 

 

McDermott and Beane came in and gutted the old Whaley guys - Watkins wasn't competitive, Dareus never gave you fully committed professional vibes, Cordy Glenn, Reggie Ragland, the Ronald Darby trade. But in their places they tried to put in the veterans they felt comfortable with, guys like Jordan Matthews, Kelvin Benjamin, Chris Ivory, Joe Webb, Mike Tolbert,  Derek Anderson, Vontae Davis.  

 

I think largely those moves blew up in their faces. They inherited Kyle Williams, Beane wasn't here when Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer were signed, Lorenzo Alexander. 

 

The real change I have seen is McDermott willing to go for it on 4th Down more, pass it more. I think the Bills finally have a FO that understands it takes talent to win in the NFL. Rex Ryan thought he could line up and run over people with the run game. That's 1981 football. The Bills invested in a young quarterback and have largely drafted better under Beane, and so you actually have some young players who are good on this team, and have been aggressive in the draft, FA, and trades. Beane has also managed the cap well, the extra cap space gained has been used to add bodies to the offensive line and improve the skill position players. They moved off Jeremy Kerley, Kelvin Benjamin, promoted Levi Wallace. Now they still have tendencies to fall back into the pattern - Frank Gore was this, trying to sign Greg Olsen was this, Josh Norman is this to some degree. 

 

But for the most part, the Bills can practice what they preach about competition, because they actually have a roster with a mix of veterans and skilled younger players. 

 

The Bills aren't delusional anymore about what it takes to win. It takes talent and depth. Unlike Marv Levy as GM and Buddy Nix, we have a GM that realized you have to get your own franchise QB (not take other teams backups and try to luck into a QB) and draft well. 

 

  

 

I think this demonstrates a serious misunderstanding of what McBeane have been doing.   They told us what they would do, and they've doing it. 

 

They didn't get Kerley and Benjamin and those guys because they thought talent wasn't important, and somehow they "aren't delusional anymore."  These guys have never been delusional.   What they've said, and what they've done is fill the roster with players who have the kind of personal characteristics they were looking for:   Intense competitors, hard workers, guys determined to get better, family guys with serious personal values.   They've been very clear about this.   They don't care how talented a guy is; if he doesn't have those personal characteristics, they don't want them.   So they cleared guys like Watkins and Dareus out.   Plain and simple. 

 

They understood that by changing up the roster in that way they would drain the roster of some serious talent and they would not be able to replace it immediately with the same level of talent.   They told us that.   But McDermott explained that if you keep guys around who don't meet his character standards, they tend to infect the team, and as long as they are there infecting the team, you can't build the culture you want.   So they cleaned house and filled the roster with the character they wanted, to create the culture.  

 

Once they got the culture they wanted, they began replacing players who fit the character mold and who were more talented than the guys they have.   

 

They didn't didn't think that Kerley was good enough and then suddenly discover that talent was important.  They knew all along that they needed talent.   They just believed, and told us, that they were going to build character and culture first.   They did exactly what they said they'd do.   And they aren't done yet.   There will be another talent upgrade next year.  

 

My point in the OP was about only a small part of it, which is that part of the character criteria is the guy has to be an intense competitor.   They guy has to be desperate to win.   That's important to McDermott because he understands that the roster is so large that there can be no equivalent of a Jordan, no superstar who drives the entire team to be excellent every day.   As someone pointed out, that's why McDermott is constantly talking about veteran leadership in every position room.   Within each position room you can have a guy who pushes teammates like a Jordan did, because it's a small enough group.  

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thurm -

 

I agree with this.   I think the NFL is about coaching, not about talent, and it's clear that the Bills have won with coaching.   The whole point of the excitement caused by the off-season is that this is a well-coached team that has now added some premier talent (Diggs), some solid starting talent (defensive acquistions), and some promising rookie talent.  

 

Win with coaching.  Win a lot with coaching and talent.  

 

 

I disagree with that. Bad coaching can lose games and limit what talent can do. Good coaching allows talent to play to the limits of their ability. But it's mostly about talent and the players.

 

This is indeed a well-coached team but they were that for all of the last three years. The difference is that they're now a well-GM'd team and that GM has finally put together the roster they've been working towards. Pundits had the Bills just about exactly right last year, good enough to play well especially with a weaker schedule but not good enough to seriously compete. The roster wasn't good enough. And IMO they've got them right this year too ... they've got the roster to compete, to win in the playoffs, to be among the top few teams ... all dependent on how well Allen plays. They've finally got the roster, and it's been a long long time since we could say that.