25 Best of all Time in the NFL !!

[BillsNutHawaii]

18 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Not bitter toward you at all, I will admit I did not read your entire post, sorry to cause this minor disruption. We seem to think of this differently is all. If I ever get to Hawaii again The beer is on me. Not a fan of them, likely never will be. They have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar to often. 
 

Go Bills!!!

 

Your sentiment is much appreciated and lots peace to you! Would def meet up; I have lots of special access to “things” here Hawai’i which I would be happy to share with you or anyone on TBD,  even with “The Process” who probably hates me more than anyone here : )

 

7 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

The anger towards Bill Belichick Brady and the Patriots in general is over the top on this board.  They have been far better then us for the past two decades.  Simple as that.  They have been better then everyone for that matter.  We have basically been ***** until McDermott came on board.  And even he has not been good enuf....yet to beat the Pats.  I think that is about to change.  You have to respect greatness in anything.  You get your ass kicked, you tip your hat and go back to the drawing board.  Belichick has been great, Brady has been great.  The guy who annoys me the most is Robert Kraft.  Talk about a smug old SOB.  Can't stand him.  But he is a winner at running a football franchise.  So he gets his props, even if he can't be more discrete about the hookers he associates with.  LOL

 

Its the same with Michigan v Ohio State.  I can't stand the Buckeyes.  But they have kicked our ass for the past two decades.  While I hate them,  I have the utmost respect for Jim Tressel and Urban Meyer.  Both great coaches.  In fact, I wish Tressel was coaching the Wolverines right now.  Again, you can not disrespect greatness.  

 

As for the coaching list, I am a big George Allen and George Seifert fan.  Both great coaches that are underrated.  Allen should be much higher then 25th.  The guy was innovative and an incredible motivator.  The old Redskin teams were awesome.  Kind of guy I would have loved to play for.  Seifert took over for Walsh and led the 49ers to two Super Bowls.  He wasn't a look at me guy.  But did an excellent job keeping the 49ers from missing a beat.  The guys record in SF was 98-30.  Unbelievable.  I would put him on the list and take off Tomlin.  Why is he there instead of John Harbaugh?  I was also a Big Bum Phillips fan as a kid.  Just a completely different kind of coach.  Was a riot with his sayings and his Texan hokieness.  But dam the guy could coach too.  Tom Flores was another great coach.  Won two Super Bowls with the Raiders.  (Funny how Gruden thinks he knows how to coach.  That ended when he left Tampa.  He should take some lessons from Madden and Flores.  Gruden is a brand.  Not a coach.  LOL)

 

Awesome post, spot on!!!!!   ...... but why so down on the hookers ?

[Paup 1995MVP]

7 minutes ago, BillsNutHawaii said:

 

Your sentiment is much appreciated and lots peace to you! Would def meet up; I have lots of special access to “things” here Hawai’i which I would be happy to share with you or anyone on TBD,  even with “The Process” who probably hates me more than anyone here : )

 

 

Awesome post, spot on!!!!!   ...... but why so down on the hookers ?

Thanks man.  Not down on the hookers.  Just down on Kraft.  Don't like the man.  But the hookers may have been hot.  I didn't see them.  

[BigBillsFan]

8 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If those mental gymnastics help you sleep at night go for it. I’m not going to attempt to rewrite history to meet what I wish would have happened. They’ve certainly pushed the boundaries of what’s acceptable. They’ve certainly played in 9 Super Bowls and won 6 with BB as their HC. Both of those things are true. 

 

Mental gymnastics of getting caught? hahaha

 

Caught 3 times, evidence and records, assistants who become head coaches also cheating and busted. Yup, mental gymnastics.

 

Nothing they were busted for was "accpetable". That's mental gymnastics.

[Bring it]

Shula? Belichick? I don’t know who is the greatest, but Shula was a class act! I can’t have the respect for BB that I do for Shula.

Belichick is a great defensive coach, great at scheming for an opposing offense! Really good at changing or adapting in game! Setting a culture too. But, I feel that Brady was really the offensive genius the last 20 years

[plenzmd1]

12 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

BB had the two greatest players of all time on their respective sides of the ball - Brady and Lawrence Taylor.  BB is probably the greatest coach of all time but I would like to see him go without Brady for 5 years.  Think Phil Jackson with the Knicks and not the Bulls/MJ or Lakers/Kobe/Shaq.  

 

The other counter argument to the salary cap era is this is the free agency era.  You can rebuild rosters even if you don't draft well.  BB has never drafted better than others. His true mastery is cutting guys before they decline and signing good players to decent contracts and finding roles for them to excel. 

He did go 11-5 with Matt Cassell as well. And good point on free agency, i really never thought of it that way. Back in the day as well, teams could stash players on IR as well. For most of the 80's, only had to miss 4 games, and could bring back 5 guys. JKC used this like a champ, helped the Skins win the 3 Super Bowls( as did strikes) .But BB still number 1 no doubt.

16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Brown had Otto Graham, Walsh had Montana and Shula had Dan Marino. All of those QBs also made the NFL 100 QB list. It’s not like those guys won with bad QBs. 
 

We all hate BB but let’s not pretend that he’s anything other than the best ever. He has had more roadblocks than anyone else (just the nature of a hard salary cap). The system is designed to level the playing field. He has won more big games than anyone else despite playing in that system. 

I agree.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Mental gymnastics of getting caught? hahaha

 

Caught 3 times, evidence and records, assistants who become head coaches also cheating and busted. Yup, mental gymnastics.

 

Nothing they were busted for was "accpetable". That's mental gymnastics.

It’s not like what the Houston Astros did. A semi-deflated football isn’t the reason that they beat the Colts 45-7 in that game. I’d call pretending that was the reason for winning “mental gymnastics.” The Astros still have a championship too and what they did was infinitely worse. 
 

I can’t believe that I’m defending the Patriots here. I’d cheer for North Korea against them. With that being said this alternate universe that some try to create to discredit them is absurd. It doesn’t make us look better; it makes us look worse. When you get beat for 20 years it sucks. Pretending it didn’t happen makes you look like a child. Take your beating, as we have, and hope that one day you switch roles from the nail to the hammer. I suspect that day has arrived and am excited about it. 

9 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Thanks man.  Not down on the hookers.  Just down on Kraft.  Don't like the man.  But the hookers may have been hot.  I didn't see them.  

 

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

If those mental gymnastics help you sleep at night go for it. I’m not going to attempt to rewrite history to meet what I wish would have happened. They’ve certainly pushed the boundaries of what’s acceptable. They’ve certainly played in 9 Super Bowls and won 6 with BB as their HC. Both of those things are true. 

What is remarkable about the Patriot run under BB is that it was accomplished under a cap and free agency system. Think about the level of success he had and the organization had in a system that is designed to give advantages to teams that are down and disadvantages to teams are up through the drafting system, salary system and waiver claims. In a system designed for turning over rosters his teams remained consistently good even when his rosters were being turned over. He overcame a system with a built in cycle for success and decline. That to me is BB's and the organization's greatest achievement i.e. being consistently good for longer than a generation. 

 

There are the jealous critics who always point to the fact that BB had arguably the best qb in the history of the modern game directing his teams. What is conveniently left out is that other coaches and teams had HOF qbs such as Peyton, Favre, Elway and Rothlisberger etc taking the snaps and didn't come close to matching the success of New England. While others make excuses about their sustained success and their own failures I tip my hat to them. 

[BigBillsFan]

40 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s not like what the Houston Astros did. A semi-deflated football isn’t the reason that they beat the Colts 45-7 in that game. I’d call pretending that was the reason for winning “mental gymnastics.” The Astros still have a championship too and what they did was infinitely worse. 

 

It's not deflating footballs. Hell, I think that's a stupid part of the "cheating". Although their fumble rate was the lowest ever in the league by a whopping margin, but I digress.

 

I call taping teams, using your radio frequencies to listen to plays, breaking their coms, having spies on walk-throughs, having a special frequency to the QB in his helmet, and placing people on top of roofs to spy pretty freaking serious and it's so serious the NFL BURNS THE EVIDENCE on the same day they receive it. And then their coaches know about it: Magini turned them in and McDaniel's getting caught doing it too.

 

Then being caught in 2019 doing the same thing.

 

Yeah pretty serious and it has nothing to do with footballs.

[T master]

19 hours ago, Motorin' said:

Paul Brown won 7 championships. Totally different area, pre-merger. But if there's a case to be made, it's him... Belichick even says Brown was the greatest ever. 

 

 

Plus didn't Brown bring some offensive innovation to the game as far as the passing game went ? BB took all he learned from those that came before him & perfected it to the point he's at now .

 

If you put BB ahead of Brown that would be like saying all the guitar players that copied Eddy Van Halen are better than he is but they copied him ? .

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

It's not deflating footballs. Hell, I think that's a stupid part of the "cheating". Although their fumble rate was the lowest ever in the league by a whopping margin, but I digress.

 

I call taping teams, using your radio frequencies to listen to plays, breaking their coms, having spies on walk-throughs, having a special frequency to the QB in his helmet, and placing people on top of roofs to spy pretty freaking serious and it's so serious the NFL BURNS THE EVIDENCE on the same day they receive it. And then their coaches know about it: Magini turned them in and McDaniel's getting caught doing it too.

 

Then being caught in 2019 doing the same thing.

 

Yeah pretty serious and it has nothing to do with footballs.

I didn’t say what they did was right. The whole point is that they still have 9 Super Bowl appearances and 6 titles in that span. The cheating helped them but they still crushed teams. The Deflategate game was 45-7. If it was 31-28 people would be irate. It was a massacre. The rules that they broke certainly helped them but they were historically good either way. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[BigBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I didn’t say what they did was right. The whole point is that they still have 9 Super Bowl appearances and 6 titles in that span. The cheating helped them but they still crushed teams. The Deflategate game was 45-7. If it was 31-28 people would be irate. It was a massacre. The rules that they broke certainly helped them but they were historically good either way. 

 

Ok but we aren't talking about the Colts game, that's the problem. Every game that they won by 1 score or less could have been influenced previous to that game. Did you see their fumble rate that year and previous years? Stop looking at 1 game, and ask yourself if it helped every game before that one.

 

Still doesn't eliminate videoing teams, frequencies, etc.. That's not historically good, it's historically cheating. They got busted just a few months ago. If it wasn't helping why are they doing it?

 

Again, focusing on the Colts game is deflection. Would they have had home field advantage with some of their "wins"? Would those fumbles or increased production throwing helped them "win" games they might not have? Did it help their drop rate?

 

The science is there: lowest drops and lowest fumbles by a wide margin, the margin so big it's impossible to deny. Look it up instead of throwing 1 game as if that's what we're discussing instead of a systemic system of corruption.

[Kirby Jackson]

20 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Ok but we aren't talking about the Colts game, that's the problem. Every game that they won by 1 score or less could have been influenced previous to that game. Did you see their fumble rate that year and previous years? Stop looking at 1 game, and ask yourself if it helped every game before that one.

 

Still doesn't eliminate videoing teams, frequencies, etc.. That's not historically good, it's historically cheating. They got busted just a few months ago. If it wasn't helping why are they doing it?

 

Again, focusing on the Colts game is deflection. Would they have had home field advantage with some of their "wins"? Would those fumbles or increased production throwing helped them "win" games they might not have? Did it help their drop rate?

 

The science is there: lowest drops and lowest fumbles by a wide margin, the margin so big it's impossible to deny. Look it up instead of throwing 1 game as if that's what we're discussing instead of a systemic system of corruption.

It’s Occam’s razor. We could go miles down the rabbit hole talking about how each little thing is the cause for their great success. We can assume that no one else was doing these same things. We can put together a whole long story to discredit them. I choose to chalk it up to the most likely situation; they’ve been historically great for 20 years. I don’t sleep better at night by diminishing their accomplishments. Tip my cap and move on. The simplest answer is the likeliest answer.

[Paup 1995MVP]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s not like what the Houston Astros did. A semi-deflated football isn’t the reason that they beat the Colts 45-7 in that game. I’d call pretending that was the reason for winning “mental gymnastics.” The Astros still have a championship too and what they did was infinitely worse. 
 

I can’t believe that I’m defending the Patriots here. I’d cheer for North Korea against them. With that being said this alternate universe that some try to create to discredit them is absurd. It doesn’t make us look better; it makes us look worse. When you get beat for 20 years it sucks. Pretending it didn’t happen makes you look like a child. Take your beating, as we have, and hope that one day you switch roles from the nail to the hammer. I suspect that day has arrived and am excited about it. 

 

THOSE were the hookers??  Wow come on Bob.  Seriously.....Not good!!  

[BuffaLoko]

23 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

When teams had no turnover it was WAY easier. It’s the Red Auerbach argument. He, like Paul Brown, deserves credit but it’s much easier to win when your team is always better. BB doesn’t have that luxury in the salary cap era.

In fact, he has it harder than other contemporaries. Team’s that win consistently end up with players who are overpaid to leave. Guys like Nate Solder and Jamie Collins come to mind. He has also turned over parts of his coaching staff a few different times. The Patriots are    were constantly tweaking things to remain at the top.

fixed...sorry Sir fr scratching your post... in all due respect, we don´t know which Pats****** team we will see yet.... ?

[Kirby Jackson]

31 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

THOSE were the hookers??  Wow come on Bob.  Seriously.....Not good!!  

If you look at that picture it probably was taken 15 seconds after. Kraft is thrilled. The hooks are riddled with guilt and regret. They are asking themselves, “where did I go wrong?”

7 minutes ago, BuffaLoko said:

fixed...sorry Sir fr scratching your post... in all due respect, we don´t know which Pats****** team we will see yet.... ?

I think that they will stink. I’m on record as saying that they are a 6-10 team. They have no skill players and the worst QB situation in the league. They lost their legendary OL coach and 3 starters in the front 7. They are definitely tweaking though. I just don’t see any path for them to remain on top. They will be a bad team in 2020.