Paup 1995MVP Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 The anger towards Bill Belichick Brady and the Patriots in general is over the top on this board. They have been far better then us for the past two decades. Simple as that. They have been better then everyone for that matter. We have basically been ***** until McDermott came on board. And even he has not been good enuf....yet to beat the Pats. I think that is about to change. You have to respect greatness in anything. You get your ass kicked, you tip your hat and go back to the drawing board. Belichick has been great, Brady has been great. The guy who annoys me the most is Robert Kraft. Talk about a smug old SOB. Can't stand him. But he is a winner at running a football franchise. So he gets his props, even if he can't be more discrete about the hookers he associates with. LOL Its the same with Michigan v Ohio State. I can't stand the Buckeyes. But they have kicked our ass for the past two decades. While I hate them, I have the utmost respect for Jim Tressel and Urban Meyer. Both great coaches. In fact, I wish Tressel was coaching the Wolverines right now. Again, you can not disrespect greatness. As for the coaching list, I am a big George Allen and George Seifert fan. Both great coaches that are underrated. Allen should be much higher then 25th. The guy was innovative and an incredible motivator. The old Redskin teams were awesome. Kind of guy I would have loved to play for. Seifert took over for Walsh and led the 49ers to two Super Bowls. He wasn't a look at me guy. But did an excellent job keeping the 49ers from missing a beat. The guys record in SF was 98-30. Unbelievable. I would put him on the list and take off Tomlin. Why is he there instead of John Harbaugh? I was also a Big Bum Phillips fan as a kid. Just a completely different kind of coach. Was a riot with his sayings and his Texan hokieness. But dam the guy could coach too. Tom Flores was another great coach. Won two Super Bowls with the Raiders. (Funny how Gruden thinks he knows how to coach. That ended when he left Tampa. He should take some lessons from Madden and Flores. Gruden is a brand. Not a coach. LOL) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: Brown had Otto Graham, Walsh had Montana and Shula had Dan Marino. All of those QBs also made the NFL 100 QB list. It’s not like those guys won with bad QBs. We all hate BB but let’s not pretend that he’s anything other than the best ever. He has had more roadblocks than anyone else (just the nature of a hard salary cap). The system is designed to level the playing field. He has won more big games than anyone else despite playing in that system. I swear I’m on this island here but why isn’t Joe Gibbs talked more about being the best coach ever. He went 3-1 in SBs with 3 different qbs - Doug Williams, Joe Theismann, and Mark Rypien who combined to make 4 pro bowls! He went 17-7 in the playoffs and the nfc East was an absolute monster then and far and away the best division in the nfl. I say 3 SBs with those guys is a hell of a more impressive than riding the greatest qbs ever. Gibbs must have a bad PR agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 5 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said: cowher IMO, Cowher isn't even in the conversation with the alltime greats. He was a compiler, longevity was on his side but he can't hold Shula, Gibbs etc. jock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhit34 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Mine would be: 1. Belichick 2. Shula 3. Lombardi 4. P. Brown 5. Halas 6. Landry 7. Walsh 8. Noll 9. Parcells 10. Curly Lambeau or Gibbs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Belichick is still 1. I hate him but he has been to 9 Super Bowls and won 6. He’s won 31 playoff games. He did this in the free agency era. It’s BB and everyone else. I don’t include the pats in any rankings, they just don’t exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Yep and Brown/Graham won 3, Walsh/Montana 3, Shula/Marino 0 and Belichick/Brady 6. So basically those other tandems would have had to produce the same output over the next 10 years (ie 30% of the Super Bowls) to keep pace. BB did that while turning over the roster and coaching staff. I’m sorry, but there really isn’t much of a debate at this point. I hate Belichick. I find him to be smug and condescending. With that being said, I’m over trying to discredit his incredible career. Tip my cap and move on. Hopefully he hangs up the whistle soon. For the record, Brown/Graham won a total of seven championships. Four in the AAFC and three in the NFL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, BarleyNY said: For the record, Brown/Graham won a total of seven championships. Four in the AAFC and three in the NFL. Fair enough but there were 7 or 8 teams in the AAFC. That doesn’t carry the same weight as a 32 team league IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said: IMO, Cowher isn't even in the conversation with the alltime greats. He was a compiler, longevity was on his side but he can't hold Shula, Gibbs etc. jock. .623 win %. 11 winning seasons in 15 years along with 8 division titles , 2 Super Bowls and one title. I’d argue the numbers disagree with you. But I wouldn’t argue too hard because, living on the outskirts of “Stiller” country, I can’t freaking stand that team. ?.... anyhow, I think he’s slotted pretty fairly on that list. Give it take a position or 2 either way. Edited May 4, 2020 by Stank_Nasty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: When teams had no turnover it was WAY easier. It’s the Red Auerbach argument. He, like Paul Brown, deserves credit but it’s much easier to win when your team is always better. BB doesn’t have that luxury in the salary cap era. In fact, he has it harder than other contemporaries. Team’s that win consistently end up with players who are overpaid to leave. Guys like Nate Solder and Jamie Collins come to mind. He has also turned over parts of his coaching staff a few different times. The Patriots are constantly tweaking things to remain at the top. BB had the two greatest players of all time on their respective sides of the ball - Brady and Lawrence Taylor. BB is probably the greatest coach of all time but I would like to see him go without Brady for 5 years. Think Phil Jackson with the Knicks and not the Bulls/MJ or Lakers/Kobe/Shaq. The other counter argument to the salary cap era is this is the free agency era. You can rebuild rosters even if you don't draft well. BB has never drafted better than others. His true mastery is cutting guys before they decline and signing good players to decent contracts and finding roles for them to excel. Edited May 5, 2020 by Ethan in Portland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBillsFan Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said: Belichick is still 1. I hate him but he has been to 9 Super Bowls and won 6. He’s won 31 playoff games. He did this in the free agency era. It’s BB and everyone else. Minus his cheating he's been to no Superbowls and won nothing. Cheatriots... they deserve no praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Don Otreply said: Shula was far more classy, trustworthy, and has won more games, and has an undefeated season, and wasn’t a cheating piece of ? When a very talented team such as the pAts comes to relying on cheating to enhance there own obvious skill, they can no longer be counted among the great teams. They are and always will be a tainted organization. They didn't cheat - they just competed hard ....also, Bills players (who, if anyone, have a right to gripe) barely cared about the so called infractions, so it’s awkward some fans care more about the so called cheating than the actual players on the field. If Patriots are so tainted, why have so many players taken pay cuts / reduced salaries to play for the team ? Bills GM and HC consistently say Patriots and Belicheck are the standard and heap praise on the Patriots. .... I get the good sportsmanship part, but they wouldn’t say it if it were not true. I think Bills GM and HC would be silent. Anyway, I don’t consider them tainted, and neither does the league or the championship trophies would be returned, and I don’t thing the rest of the teams in the NFL care too much either or they would have protested. Don, et al, I hope to get constructive feedback and def don’t mind a differing opinion, just hope we can get past the “piece of s**t” “Belicheat” and similar comments that seem like sour grapes. I like to engage with people who have different opinions, I want to learn new things and be challenged (background note to others, Don and I previously had some sharp disagreements that probably went to far). Flame away on my thoughts, just hope it’s doesn't get personal again. Cheers and best ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollars 2 donuts Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 6 hours ago, First Round Bust said: Shula coached against Halas and went5-4; only active coach left he coached against was BB and Shula was 2-0... old school guys: Halas, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, maybe Weeb Ewbanks (jets)...Ditka for charisma, chutzpah and Air Coryell for the passing innovations modern era; BB, Walsh, Noll, Madden, Parcells, Gibbs, Holmgren, Reid, Jimmie Johnson, Cowher..Bum Phillips and Glanville for some personality best of the rest: Perkins, Levy, Schottenheimer, best black coach ever - Tony Dungy ? maybe Bud Grant and Hank Stram and Pete Carroll and George Seiffert at 114-62 Respect to you guys, but it is a crime that it took down to FRB’s post for the name Tom Landry to come up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, BillsNutHawaii said: They didn't cheat - they just competed hard ....also, Bills players (who, if anyone, have a right to gripe) barely cared about the so called infractions, so it’s awkward some fans care more about the so called cheating than the actual players on the field. If Patriots are so tainted, why have so many players taken pay cuts / reduced salaries to play for the team ? Bills GM and HC consistently say Patriots and Belicheck are the standard and heap praise on the Patriots. .... I get the good sportsmanship part, but they wouldn’t say it if it were not true. I think Bills GM and HC would be silent. Anyway, I don’t consider them tainted, and neither does the league or the championship trophies would be returned, and I don’t thing the rest of the teams in the NFL care too much either or they would have protested. Don, et al, I hope to get constructive feedback and def don’t mind a differing opinion, just hope we can get past the “piece of s**t” “Belicheat” and similar comments that seem like sour grapes. I like to engage with people who have different opinions, I want to learn new things and be challenged (background note to others, Don and I previously had some sharp disagreements that probably went to far). Flame away on my thoughts, just hope it’s doesn't get personal again. Cheers and best ! Whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, Don Otreply said: Whatever... Well, I extended the “olive branch” ..... hope your bitterness for me goes away sometime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said: BB had the two greatest players of all time on their respective sides of the ball - Brady and Lawrence Taylor. BB is probably the greatest coach of all time but I would like to see him go without Brady for 5 years. Think Phil Jackson with the Knicks and not the Bulls/MJ or Lakers/Kobe/Shaq. The other counter argument to the salary cap era is this is the free agency era. You can rebuild rosters even if you don't draft well. BB has never drafted better than others. His true mastery is cutting guys before they decline and signing good players to decent contracts and finding roles for them to excel. BB (ref Taylor and Brady) could be nominated for luckiest of all time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 59 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said: Minus his cheating he's been to no Superbowls and won nothing. Cheatriots... they deserve no praise. If those mental gymnastics help you sleep at night go for it. I’m not going to attempt to rewrite history to meet what I wish would have happened. They’ve certainly pushed the boundaries of what’s acceptable. They’ve certainly played in 9 Super Bowls and won 6 with BB as their HC. Both of those things are true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said: If those mental gymnastics help you sleep at night go for it. I’m not going to attempt to rewrite history to meet what I wish would have happened. They’ve certainly pushed the boundaries of what’s acceptable. They’ve certainly played in 9 Super Bowls and won 6 with BB as their HC. Both of those things are true. Bravo! You articulated it perfectly - thanks! “Pushing the boundaries” says it just right. I need to take some notes from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterStrategist Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 (edited) Lost alot of credibility putting Mike Tomlin on this list, especially with comments about him moving up near the top by the time he retires. I think most people don't realize he has had a great QB/future hall of famer (Ben), his entire career. Lets see what happens once Ben retires. Cowher rightfully belongs on the list, and along with Kevin Colbert, built an unbelievable foundation. I'd take 5 coaches before Tomlin, who are coaching right now (alphabetical): 1. Belicheck 2. Carroll 3. Harbaugh 4. Payton 5. Reid And likely another 5 guys, including McDermott, who have less than 5 yrs head coaching experience that I would hire before Tomlin if starting with a new coach. Rest of list is solid, definite arguments to bring a few guys on and most are in +/- 3 spot range Edited May 5, 2020 by MasterStrategist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 1 hour ago, BillsNutHawaii said: Well, I extended the “olive branch” ..... hope your bitterness for me goes away sometime soon. Not bitter toward you at all, I will admit I did not read your entire post, sorry to cause this minor disruption. We seem to think of this differently is all. If I ever get to Hawaii again The beer is on me. Not a fan of them, likely never will be. They have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar to often. Go Bills!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNutHawaii Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 6 hours ago, jwhit34 said: Mine would be: 1. Belichick 2. Shula 3. Lombardi 4. P. Brown 5. Halas 6. Landry 7. Walsh 8. Noll 9. Parcells 10. Curly Lambeau or Gibbs Thats a great list ... but would put Coach Parcells higher (by about 4 spots) for the following reasons: - He has a good / better coaching tree than most - He genuinely cared for all his players in a very meaningful way and consistently backed it up with action - His resume demonstrates great / excellent success with 3 to 4 teams and not just one team like most of the others on the list BTW: Coach Parcells published an article in the Harvard Business Review, dated December 2000, entitled, “The tough work of turning around a team.” A really good read for aspiring or active leaders/managerial types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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