Final result of the Marcel Dareus trade for Buffalo:

[C.Biscuit97]

7 hours ago, Utah John said:

Dareus was a great physical talent but completely lacked self-discipline.  He was a very young person, not chronological age but wrt maturity, when he arrived.  He got to a Bills team with losing culture, and figured, OK then, that's how it is.  He didn't push himself and no one really pushed him.  No one, no matter how talented, makes it without hard work.  It's all just a shame.  A waste of a potentially great career, and a waste of a great draft opportunity.

A lot of people died around him.  Sometimes that motivates people.  Other times, you go the opposite way.  

17 hours ago, somnus00 said:

 

At the time, I hated the Dareus pick. I wanted Watt there (even at 3), or a trade down for Cameron Jordan. My 2 favorite D-line prospects in that draft. I saw Dareus as a 2 down DT. You don't spend the 3rd overall pick on a 2 down player in my opinion.

I’m going to call BS in the Watt stuff.  You were really calling for the Bills to draft a guy with 11.5 sacks in 3 years in college?  Really??? Over the guy who was the D player of game in a national championship? Really???

[C.Biscuit97]

15 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

Great information and it underscores the importance of a good GM like Beane.  He makes every asset count.  
 

For Sabres fans,  all we need do is look at Boterill and his moves and be thankful for Beane.  

I still fail to see how the timing of the Dareus trade was a good move.  It literally makes no sense to do a salary dump in the middle of a season when you are competing for the playoffs.  Especially at a position that was a huge weakness.  
 

McBeane has done some really good things but I think people fall all over themselves to praise them.  The Jags almost went to the SB with Dareus.  The Bills lost to the Jags 10-3.  Maybe if they have Dareus and kept Sammy instead of scrubs like Jordan Matthews and fat Kelvin, they win that game and go on a playoff run. 

[SoTier]

59 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I still fail to see how the timing of the Dareus trade was a good move.  It literally makes no sense to do a salary dump in the middle of a season when you are competing for the playoffs.  Especially at a position that was a huge weakness.  
 

McBeane has done some really good things but I think people fall all over themselves to praise them.  The Jags almost went to the SB with Dareus.  The Bills lost to the Jags 10-3.  Maybe if they have Dareus and kept Sammy instead of scrubs like Jordan Matthews and fat Kelvin, they win that game and go on a playoff run. 

 

I agree.  Taylor wasn't a very good QB, but in 2017 he had nobody to throw to except for McCoy.  The personnel moves in 2017 really soured me on McDermott and Beane, but I think that Beane, at least, has shown himself to be a good GM. 

 

I wrote in the thread from last week or the week before about where Beane ranked as a GM that I don't think Beane really had true GM power until some time after Russ Brandon was fired.  I think that at least through the 2018 draft, Beane was functioning much as Doug Whaley did: a talent scout/manager subservient to the bean counters in the FO and the HC.  The personnel moves made by the Bills in 2017-2018 -- with players and with coaches -- were reminiscent of personnel moves made by the Bills since Brandon took over the team in 2006.  That changed in  2019 as the Bills brought in almost an entirely new offensive coaching staff for Daboll, including a well respected and experienced QB coach.  They also brought in an entirely new OL and WR corps.  This year is much more like 2019 than 2017 or 2018.  The Bills traded for their first proven play maker on offense in forever, they made solid if unspectacular FA signings, and they had a solid draft that looks like they have an eye on the future with Day 3 picks like Fromm and Bass.  That all suggests an upgraded scouting department along with upgraded coaches and players.  For the first time since John Butler and AJ Smith departed for the West Coast, it seems like the Bills FO is focused on winning football games rather than just filling the stadium.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

This is mostly about the salary dump, which is huge. 

 

Honestly though, even though that draft was stacked...I don't know how much I can rail on the former regime for taking Dareus. He was a total force in college and he had everything physically to be a really impactful stalwart on the DLine. To me it's still tougher to find those guys than WR's. 

 

I tend to be in the middle when it comes to the draft being evaluation vs crapshoot. For the most part I think it's very tough to tell who will adapt to the NFL and keep/elevate their motivation. I don't blame the logic in drafting Dareus though, at the time I was fully on board. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by HomeskillitMoorman

[billsfan89]

The Dareus trade was addition by subtraction. Not only did the Bill's get rid of his contract a year early (which helped them have a ton of spending money for 2019 free agency) but they also got rid of a locker room problem when they were trying to establish a new culture. The actually draft pick compensation is fairly inconsequential.

 

I do think that the 2017 defense did suffer from Dareus absence in rush defense but long term it was worth it. It is unfortunate that Dareus never worked out. From 2011 to 2014 Dareus was a good to great player and even in the Rex and first McD years he still was a capable player. But you can't live up to that type of contract by simply being a better than average player. 

[Phil The Thrill]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I still fail to see how the timing of the Dareus trade was a good move.  It literally makes no sense to do a salary dump in the middle of a season when you are competing for the playoffs.  Especially at a position that was a huge weakness.  
 

McBeane has done some really good things but I think people fall all over themselves to praise them.  The Jags almost went to the SB with Dareus.  The Bills lost to the Jags 10-3.  Maybe if they have Dareus and kept Sammy instead of scrubs like Jordan Matthews and fat Kelvin, they win that game and go on a playoff run. 

Shocking this C. Biscuit character takes the stance against Beane and McDermott.

 

In this case, he fails to take into account the human element of a sports team.  You had a guy like Dareus who was overpaid, unmotivated, and not buying in.  They sent a message to the locker room by trading him, and it worked.

 

To assume that Marcel would suddenly become a model citizen and turn things around to help the Bills in a playoff run is pretty short sighted.  
 

Trading Marcel was 100% the right move.  The results and salary cap speaks for itself.  So does Marcel’s current football team.

 

Great move by Beane and McDermott

[Phil The Thrill]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

The Dareus trade was addition by subtraction. Not only did the Bill's get rid of his contract a year early (which helped them have a ton of spending money for 2019 free agency) but they also got rid of a locker room problem when they were trying to establish a new culture. The actually draft pick compensation is fairly inconsequential.

 

I do think that the 2017 defense did suffer from Dareus absence in rush defense but long term it was worth it. It is unfortunate that Dareus never worked out. From 2011 to 2014 Dareus was a good to great player and even in the Rex and first McD years he still was a capable player. But you can't live up to that type of contract by simply being a better than average player. 

This is what many including @C.Biscuit97 In this thread fail to understand.  They think “Marcel is a better DT than Adolphus Washington, so the trade was bad.”  That thinking is short sighted and the same logic that which hurt the franchise under Doug Whaley.  Building a team is more than just adding talent.

 

Also in any situation - whether it’s sports or business, when you’re trying to turn around the entire culture of an organization, you get rid of people who won’t get on board.  Very rarely do you turn things around with the same exact team.  The handling of Marcel was a great move and it sent a positive message to the locker room. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said:

This is what many including @C.Biscuit97 In this thread fail to understand.  They think “Marcel is a better DT than Adolphus Washington, so the trade was bad.”  That thinking is short sighted and the same logic that which hurt the franchise under Doug Whaley.  Building a team is more than just adding talent.

 

Also in any situation - whether it’s sports or business, when you’re trying to turn around the entire culture of an organization, you get rid of people who won’t get on board.  Very rarely do you turn things around with the same exact team.  The handling of Marcel was a great move and it sent a positive message to the locker room. 

I think you are missing the point.  No one is arguing about trading Dareus.  The argument is when they traded him and acting like it was some genius move.  When they traded Dareus, they were 4-2.  They finished 5-6 after the trade.  Genius!  It clearly sent an inspiring message in the lockerroom!

 

It saved zero money when if happened; the Jags went from a terrible run defense to almost making the SB; and our run defense was awful after the trade.  If they keep Dareus for the season, he might help win a few more games and possibly the playoff game.  He also may have been traded for better value in the offseason.  
 

long term, they cleared cap room.  But short term, no, it wasn’t a good move.  You can still be a Bills fans and not pretend every move they make is genius.  

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

A lot of people died around him.  Sometimes that motivates people.  Other times, you go the opposite way.  

I’m going to call BS in the Watt stuff.  You were really calling for the Bills to draft a guy with 11.5 sacks in 3 years in college?  Really??? Over the guy who was the D player of game in a national championship? Really???

He was the second DL off the board, just outside the top 10. Hardly an unbelievable claim.

 

In 5 years, some people may say they liked Kinlaw over Derrick Brown.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I agree.  Taylor wasn't a very good QB, but in 2017 he had nobody to throw to except for McCoy.  The personnel moves in 2017 really soured me on McDermott and Beane, but I think that Beane, at least, has shown himself to be a good GM. 

 

I wrote in the thread from last week or the week before about where Beane ranked as a GM that I don't think Beane really had true GM power until some time after Russ Brandon was fired.  I think that at least through the 2018 draft, Beane was functioning much as Doug Whaley did: a talent scout/manager subservient to the bean counters in the FO and the HC.  The personnel moves made by the Bills in 2017-2018 -- with players and with coaches -- were reminiscent of personnel moves made by the Bills since Brandon took over the team in 2006.  That changed in  2019 as the Bills brought in almost an entirely new offensive coaching staff for Daboll, including a well respected and experienced QB coach.  They also brought in an entirely new OL and WR corps.  This year is much more like 2019 than 2017 or 2018.  The Bills traded for their first proven play maker on offense in forever, they made solid if unspectacular FA signings, and they had a solid draft that looks like they have an eye on the future with Day 3 picks like Fromm and Bass.  That all suggests an upgraded scouting department along with upgraded coaches and players.  For the first time since John Butler and AJ Smith departed for the West Coast, it seems like the Bills FO is focused on winning football games rather than just filling the stadium.

McDermott drafted the best player on the Bills and an All-Pro player in 2017. He also drafted an above average LT and a pretty good LB in the fifth.

 

You could argue that McD has drafted better players than Beane. 0 All-Pros to 1. 1-1 ProBowlers. And McD has had less drafts.

 

2017 was a lost season from the jump, but we fell into the playoffs. Breaking the drought was awesome and probably helped our football team a lot, but we probably cost our team talent in the short term by having some success. Imagine winning 6 games in 2017, not having to trade as many picks to get Allen or Edmunds.

 

We may have ended up with Chark or Warner or Goedert.

[Mango]

On 5/1/2020 at 4:58 PM, NewEra said:

Couldn’t believe beane was able to get rid of that contract and actually get picks in return. I figured we’d have to trade picks a la the Texans and Osweiler.

 

Beane is a stud.

 

teams are just lining up to sign him.  We made the playoffs 2 out of 3 years since trading him.  None with him.  
 

I wonder if anyone is gonna eat crow or just continue to defend their stance that it was a terrible trade on our part.

 

 

Cam not luck

I didn’t hate the trade as much as I hated the timing of it. The Dareus trade plus Star signing was a huge part of our “cap he’ll”. 
 

Had they waited until the end of the season we could have cut his dead money in half. Instead we traded him away and signed Star to an inflated contract. We ended up having a larger cap hit with dead money + Star than if we would have just kept him one more season. Dareus seems to continue to regress but I think we also get more out of MD that year than we got out of Star. 
 

I also didn’t like the Darby trade. Jordan Matthews was a dud. We all like Harry (picked with the 3rd in the trade) but we really don’t have any idea what his career will be like at this point, and so far is off to a lesser start than Darby did. Even pre draft we weren’t sure if we would take a CB in the first 2 days because we are lacking depth and a ton of question marks around Norman having much tread in the tires. Still chasing his replacement. 

 

[NewEra]

13 minutes ago, Mango said:

I didn’t hate the trade as much as I hated the timing of it. The Dareus trade plus Star signing was a huge part of our “cap he’ll”. 
 

Had they waited until the end of the season we could have cut his dead money in half. Instead we traded him away and signed Star to an inflated contract. We ended up having a larger cap hit with dead money + Star than if we would have just kept him one more season. Dareus seems to continue to regress but I think we also get more out of MD that year than we got out of Star. 
 

I also didn’t like the Darby trade. Jordan Matthews was a dud. We all like Harry (picked with the 3rd in the trade) but we really don’t have any idea what his career will be like at this point, and so far is off to a lesser start than Darby did. Even pre draft we weren’t sure if we would take a CB in the first 2 days because we are lacking depth and a ton of question marks around Norman having much tread in the tires. Still chasing his replacement. 

 

Trading marcel for a 5th = a win. Doesn’t even matter who the pick turned out to be.  You can’t bring star into the trade.  He has absolutely nothing to do with it.  I didn’t like the star signing either.  I was pretty vocal about my dislike for the signing.

 

Phillips on his rookie contract > Darby imo.  Washington signed him to a 1 year 4 mill contract. He was no loss.  If we thought anything of him, he could’ve been ours for next to nothing.  Jordan Matthews sucked, but whatevs 
 

Phillips is still an unknown but he showed a good amount of improvement from year 1 to 2 before him injury.  It’s a no brainer that we made out on that trade imo.  Every trade philly made that year was good for them, as they won the SB.  It was also good for us imo

 

 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Trading marcel for a 5th = a win. Doesn’t even matter who the pick turned out to be.  You can’t bring star into the trade.  He has absolutely nothing to do with it.  I didn’t like the star signing either.  I was pretty vocal about my dislike for the signing.

 

Phillips on his rookie contract > Darby imo.  Washington signed him to a 1 year 4 mill contract. He was no loss.  If we thought anything of him, he could’ve been ours for next to nothing.  Jordan Matthews sucked, but whatevs 
 

Phillips is still an unknown but he showed a good amount of improvement from year 1 to 2 before him injury.  It’s a no brainer that we made out on that trade imo.  Every trade philly made that year was good for them, as they won the SB.  It was also good for us imo

 

 

Star does have everything to do with it because the trade itself was terrible cap management and largely responsible for our “cap he’ll. Waiting 16 games would have halved our dead cap space. But we traded MD and needed a replacement. So we were then in the whole for more than if we just kept Dareus and probably got less production that year. It’s the entire reason I disliked the trade. 
 

Darby’s 2 years in was better than Harry has played. And that’s not a knock on Harry at all. Unfortunately RD’s time was injury plagued in Philly. Hopefully he bounces back, we shall see.  Largely he was traded because he was a man to man corner and McD loves to play zone.
 

 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Star does have everything to do with it because the trade itself was terrible cap management and largely responsible for our “cap he’ll. Waiting 16 games would have halved our dead cap space. But we traded MD and needed a replacement. So we were then in the whole for more than if we just kept Dareus and probably got less production that year. It’s the entire reason I disliked the trade. 
 

Darby’s 2 years in was better than Harry has played. And that’s not a knock on Harry at all. Unfortunately RD’s time was injury plagued in Philly. Hopefully he bounces back, we shall see.  Largely he was traded because he was a man to man corner and McD loves to play zone.
 

 

When Dareus was traded.  Star was a panther.  He became a bill months later.  They were separate moves and are graded separately. 
 

Calling star a part of the Dareus trade is like calling drafting Tre’davious part of the Darby trade.  Drafting tre allowed us to trade our best corner.  

No, they are separate.  It’s just doesn’t correlate to me.  

Edited May 3, 2020 by NewEra

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

When Dareus was traded.  Star was a panther.  He became a bill months later.  They were separate moves and are graded separately. 
 

Calling star a part of the Dareus trade is like calling drafting Tre’davious part of the Darby trade.  Drafting tre allowed us to trade our best corner.  

No, they are separate.  It’s just doesn’t correlate to me.  

Nobody team-builds in a vacuum so you’re actually right on the money. We drafted Tre and traded for Gaines which made Darby pretty expendable.

 

Trading Dareus left a hole at DT. Star’s contract was going to be up and McD and co knew it. They didn’t trade Dareus, and then 12 weeks later go, “hey maybe we should sign a DT because we don’t have many, who is available?” That doesn’t mean their ONLY plan at DT was Star, but that’s the one they executed to replace Dareus.

 

 

[Mr. K]

Well that kicker can hit a practice 1 leg no step 50 yarder. I love shorts season

[stuvian]

On 5/1/2020 at 4:42 PM, warrior9 said:

We initially traded Dareus for a sixth round conditional pick that turned into a fifth.

 

The initial fifth round pick turned out to be Wyatt Teller. 

 

The Bills then traded Wyatt teller and a 7th for this year's 5th and 6th round draft picks. 

 

When all is said and done the Bills traded Marcel Dareus and recieve

 

Jake Fromm, Tyler Bass

this will be a great trivia question someday

[Jerry Jabber]

Dareus was a beast until he got the contract extension and turned in an Albert Haynesworth. Such a shame, both players were extremely talented, but both packed it in once they got paid.

[Bob in STL]

9 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I still fail to see how the timing of the Dareus trade was a good move.  It literally makes no sense to do a salary dump in the middle of a season when you are competing for the playoffs.  Especially at a position that was a huge weakness.  
 

McBeane has done some really good things but I think people fall all over themselves to praise them.  The Jags almost went to the SB with Dareus.  The Bills lost to the Jags 10-3.  Maybe if they have Dareus and kept Sammy instead of scrubs like Jordan Matthews and fat Kelvin, they win that game and go on a playoff run. 

Getting rid of that contract was huge.  Dump it when you can. 
 

Dareus helped them for one year, and then he went back to being the typically unreliable Dareus.  Getting rid of that salary help us to rebuild.   

[Phil The Thrill]

7 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think you are missing the point.  No one is arguing about trading Dareus.  The argument is when they traded him and acting like it was some genius move.  When they traded Dareus, they were 4-2.  They finished 5-6 after the trade.  Genius!  It clearly sent an inspiring message in the lockerroom!

 

It saved zero money when if happened; the Jags went from a terrible run defense to almost making the SB; and our run defense was awful after the trade.  If they keep Dareus for the season, he might help win a few more games and possibly the playoff game.  He also may have been traded for better value in the offseason.  
 

long term, they cleared cap room.  But short term, no, it wasn’t a good move.  You can still be a Bills fans and not pretend every move they make is genius.  

If you read my comments here you know I don’t pretend every move is the greatest.  But unlike some, I give this Bills administration a lot of credit for the job they’ve done.  It seems like everything you write is critical.

 

Im regards to trading Dareus being a “genius” move, I never said that.  But if you remember in the summer of 2017, many in the NFL said it would be nearly impossible to move a slumping and lazy  Dareus given this cap hit - if that’s why people are giving Beane props - that’s why.  
 

I said it was the right move which you again dismissed failing to take into account the reasons why keeping him was problematic.  Again, it’s about changing culture and it happens all of the time.  
 

Also you can stop pretending that Dareus deserves the lion-share of credit for the Bills 4-2 record (he was playing less than 50% of the defensive snaps) or Jacksonville’s run defense who had already had a tremendous defensive line.  To make either of these correlations is just using junk data for your confirmation bias  
 

Your anti-Beane bias shines loud and clear through threads like this.  

Edited May 3, 2020 by Phil The Thrill