Has there been a QB in recent memory with more Bulletin Board material than Josh?

[Mr. K]

There is that Boston Blobe article saying Fromm is going to be the starter. But thats just a protroll.

[BuffaloHokie13]

6 minutes ago, eball said:

You have a poor memory.  None of the QBs mentioned were top 10 draft picks, and all were justifiably critiqued for their play on the field.  Most were "propped up" or at least given the benefit of the doubt before reality could not be ignored.

 

Allen, by contrast, has been bashed incessantly since he was drafted -- before he took one step on an NFL field many labeled him a certain bust.  Then, despite huge improvements in key areas last season, nearly every write up about the 2020 Bills lists Allen as the biggest question mark and/or reason the Bills won't advance farther.

 

It's like night and day.

Isn't that also justifiable based on his play to date? He's absolutely improving, but he's pretty clearly the limiting factor on the field for the O. The roster has been intentionally built that way to foster success, while also ensuring a fair evaluation. 

 

If the same statement were made about, let's say Drew Lock, would you feel like it was unfair? The Broncos went out and added the pieces around him on O to let him sink or swim.

[nucci]

every QB gets trashed

[eball]

7 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Isn't that also justifiable based on his play to date? He's absolutely improving, but he's pretty clearly the limiting factor on the field for the O. The roster has been intentionally built that way to foster success, while also ensuring a fair evaluation. 

 

If the same statement were made about, let's say Drew Lock, would you feel like it was unfair? The Broncos went out and added the pieces around him on O to let him sink or swim.

 

The criticism of Josh is over the top.  If he plays exactly how he played last season the Bills are a playoff team.  Didn't he sustain the highest rate of drops last year?  It is VERY fair to say that Josh needs to continue to develop and improve, but (correct me if I'm wrong) there are still far too many "critiques" out there that presume he will flop.

[BuffaloHokie13]

4 minutes ago, eball said:

The criticism of Josh is over the top.  If he plays exactly how he played last season the Bills are a playoff team.  Didn't he sustain the highest rate of drops last year?  It is VERY fair to say that Josh needs to continue to develop and improve, but (correct me if I'm wrong) there are still far too many "critiques" out there that presume he will flop.

You didn't answer either of my questions. The point that this team will go as far as Josh Allen takes them is pretty valid imo. Whether that's 8-8, playoffs, or a super bowl remains to be seen.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Meh .... Kelly got crushed, relatively speaking, on occasion. Comes with the territory. 

[nucci]

12 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

You didn't answer either of my questions. The point that this team will go as far as Josh Allen takes them is pretty valid imo. Whether that's 8-8, playoffs, or a super bowl remains to be seen.

aren't most teams reliant on their starting QB?

[BuffaloHokie13]

Just now, nucci said:

aren't most teams reliant on their starting QB?

Not the point I'm making. The 2018 team results, for instance, were not on Josh. The roster needed work, especially on O. This is evidenced by bringing in 9 new starters in 2019, trading our 1st round pick for Diggs in 2020, and then drafting 2 more WRs after that.

[eball]

47 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

You didn't answer either of my questions. The point that this team will go as far as Josh Allen takes them is pretty valid imo. Whether that's 8-8, playoffs, or a super bowl remains to be seen.

 

I didn't answer your question about Drew Lock because his situation is not similar to Allen's -- he has literally no NFL resume to speak of while Allen now has 28 games and has shown a modicum of success already.

 

Yes, it is reasonable to say that the success of an NFL team rests largely upon its QB.  In the specific case of Josh Allen, more often than not the presumption is that he will not take the next step and he is rarely given the benefit of the doubt that his development and performance will improve.  Is that hard to understand?

 

Edit:  Case in point:  what do experts say about Mayfield/Darnold?  They are expecting them to move forward and progress in their third seasons.  Absolutely night and day from when they talk about Allen.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by eball

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I didn't answer your question about Drew Lock because his situation is not similar to Allen's -- he has literally no NFL resume to speak of while Allen now has 28 games and has shown a modicum of success already.

 

Yes, it is reasonable to say that the success of an NFL team rests largely upon its QB.  In the specific case of Josh Allen, more often than not the presumption is that he will not take the next step and he is rarely given the benefit of the doubt that his development and performance will improve.  Is that hard to understand?

Lock went 4-1 last year.  He threw 7 TDs and 3 INTs while completing 64% of his passes in throwing for 204 yards per game and a rating of 89.7.  That would be the best 5 game stretch of Allen’s career.

[BuffaloHokie13]

8 minutes ago, eball said:

I didn't answer your question about Drew Lock because his situation is not similar to Allen's -- he has literally no NFL resume to speak of while Allen now has 28 games and has shown a modicum of success already.

 

Yes, it is reasonable to say that the success of an NFL team rests largely upon its QB.  In the specific case of Josh Allen, more often than not the presumption is that he will not take the next step and he is rarely given the benefit of the doubt that his development and performance will improve.  Is that hard to understand?

Fine, let's go with Mitch Trubisky then. Top 10 pick, got weapons put around him, averages exactly the same total attempts per game as Allen, has a strong Defense to lean on when needed. As far as your second paragraph, you're either using poor sources or applying your own BBFS bias to the statements. Heck, I even said they could win the super bowl. The roster is very good around him. He'll determine how far they get. That is specific to Allen. Not every team has the quality roster we do.

[Kirby Jackson]

17 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I’ve been going through the years and I can’t remember a qb who has literally been trashed more then this guy yet is somehow successful heck even Josh Rosen who is almost out the league has gotten better publicity...just strange 

The thing with Josh (and I suspect Herbert and Love will face it) is that he was a polarizing prospect coming out. Some people LOVED him and some HATED him. It is human nature for people to want to be proven correct. The people that hated him say “see I told you he was inaccurate” whenever he misses an open receiver. The people that love him say, “see I told you he was one of the most talented QBs in the world” when he hurdles a defender in Minnesota. There were such extremes on him coming out that people get loud because they are constantly defending their strong feelings. They want to be right.
 

I don’t suspect Joe Burrow will face that because the opinions on him were pretty consistent. People just won’t discuss him like that. No one is going to write 6,000 words on, “Why I was right about Joe Burrow.” Everyone jumps at the opportunity to be proven right about Josh. Kiper, Adam Schein and Chris Simms think he’s the second coming. PFF and the guy at The Globe thinks that he’s terrible. He was polarizing coming out and people just can’t wait to tell you why they were right.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[BuffaloHokie13]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The thing with Josh (and I suspect Herbert and Love will face it) is that he was a polarizing prospect coming out. Some people LOVED him and some HATED him. It is human nature for people to want to be proven correct. The people that hated him say “see I told you he was inaccurate” whenever he misses an open receiver. The people that love him say, “see I told you he was one of the most talented QBs in the world” when he hurdles a defender in Minnesota. There were such extremes on him coming out that people get loud because they are constantly defending their strong feelings. They want to be right.
 

I don’t suspect Joe Burrow will face that because the opinions on him were pretty consistent. People just won’t discuss him like that. No one is going to right 6,000 words on, “Why I was right about Joe Burrow.” Everyone jumps at the opportunity to be proven right about Josh. Kiper, Adam Schein and Chris Simms think he’s the second coming. PFF and the guy at The Globe thinks that he’s terrible. He was polarizing coming out and people just can’t wait to tell you why they were right.

And that's the rub. He hasn't definitively proven he's one or the other (probably because the truth was always going to be in the middle somewhere). If he came in and had the same numbers as Mahomes' first 2 years as a starter this wouldn't be a thing. As it stands, he's a 56% passer who averages 6.6 YPA, 209 total YPG, and 1.68 TDs per game that has had success in the win/loss department and has won over the locker room. The 2020 roster is the best he has ever been on and it will be interesting to see where he takes them.

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

And that's the rub. He hasn't definitively proven he's one or the other (probably because the truth was always going to be in the middle somewhere). If he came in and had the same numbers as Mahomes' first 2 years as a starter this wouldn't be a thing. As it stands, he's a 56% passer who averages 6.6 YPA, 209 total YPG, and 1.68 TDs per game that has had success in the win/loss department and has won over the locker room. The 2020 roster is the best he has ever been on and it will be interesting to see where he takes them.

The truth is almost always somewhere in the middle. With Josh the opinions were so extreme it left a big middle. With Burrow, as an example, that doesn’t exist. The opinions were pretty consistent. There isn’t much to debate. You aren’t trying to influence people to one side or the other. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

You have a poor memory.  None of the QBs mentioned were top 10 draft picks, and all were justifiably critiqued for their play on the field.  Most were "propped up" or at least given the benefit of the doubt before reality could not be ignored.

 

Allen, by contrast, has been bashed incessantly since he was drafted -- before he took one step on an NFL field many labeled him a certain bust.  Then, despite huge improvements in key areas last season, nearly every write up about the 2020 Bills lists Allen as the biggest question mark and/or reason the Bills won't advance farther.

 

It's like night and day.

You and I have different recollections of the pre-draft and post-draft assessments of Josh as a prospect. Most credible analysts acknowledged his raw physical talents while also acknowledging that he was very far from being a refined NFL qb. That is not only a fair assessment of him as a draft prospect but also an accurate assessment of him as a young NFL qb. There is no doubt that he had his critics as a prospect. But the reality is that most analysts had him rated as one of the top three to four qbs in the draft who would be picked early in the first round. And that is exactly what transpired. 

 

There are always going to be people who have extreme views on players from being elite to being a bust. But in general (my opinion) most credible analysts and hometown fans were reasonable and fair in how they evaluated him. My view of him in the early part of his career is that he has demonstrated improvement as a qb. I'm happy with his development but there is still a long way to go for his impressive physical to be fully actualized. 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

You have a poor memory.  None of the QBs mentioned were top 10 draft picks, and all were justifiably critiqued for their play on the field.  Most were "propped up" or at least given the benefit of the doubt before reality could not be ignored.

 

Allen, by contrast, has been bashed incessantly since he was drafted -- before he took one step on an NFL field many labeled him a certain bust.  Then, despite huge improvements in key areas last season, nearly every write up about the 2020 Bills lists Allen as the biggest question mark and/or reason the Bills won't advance farther.

 

It's like night and day.

Lol there were reports about EJ that his college coach thought he would suck in the NFL. This was at the start of his second season. There have been negative takes on all of these Bills QB’s. I even linked a thread above about how the criticism was “so unfair.”

 

Several analysts have gushed over Josh. Pre and post draft.

 

You have a bad memory.

[eball]

53 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

And that's the rub. He hasn't definitively proven he's one or the other (probably because the truth was always going to be in the middle somewhere). If he came in and had the same numbers as Mahomes' first 2 years as a starter this wouldn't be a thing. As it stands, he's a 56% passer who averages 6.6 YPA, 209 total YPG, and 1.68 TDs per game that has had success in the win/loss department and has won over the locker room. The 2020 roster is the best he has ever been on and it will be interesting to see where he takes them.

 

None of which I disagree with.  The premise was about how he is perceived, in general, nationally.

[416BillsFan]

Probably, but most of it is a bi-product of the Bills actually being relevant nationally now, as well as him being a high draft pick. Can't imagine ESPN segments on EJ Manuel garnered good ratings or PFT articles on Trent Edwards generated any views.

Post Flutie/Johnson, our next biggest "star" at QB would undoubtedly be Nathan Peterman because his historically bad performances captured the imagination of even casual NFL fans. Him as a QB was like the sports version of Denise Richards as a nuclear physicist in that James Bond movie.

[Paup 1995MVP]

5 hours ago, Hampton Josh fan said:

What a testimony to the awesomeness of being a great fan and seeing an event that is a standard for the NFL capturing the imagination of all sports fans. I dream of going to a venue with my son and grandson and sharing an experience like that. 

Thanks Hampton.  I appreciate the response.  Football has been a huge constant in my life since I was 8 years old living in Pennsylvania.  I moved to Buffalo New Years 1976 when I was 10 and been a Bills fan ever since.  I have not missed a game on TV since the last game of the 94 season.  (when I go on vacation in the fall, it is usually to Vegas to bet on games)  My three kids who are either young adults or close to it grew up with the NFL and the Bills on the Sunday Ticket every Sunday.  My daughter used to wear a Brian Moorman jersey when she was young (he was the best player on team for years)  My older son would only wear NFL jerseys to school when he was in elementary school.  Football was a way of life in our house.  My mother who did not grow up a big football fan became hooked watching the Bills-Chargers playoff game at the end of the 1980 season.  She had season tickets for years after she moved to Toronto.  She would make the trek with her boyfriend to every game.  Her last one was the blizzard game against the Colts.  She was in the middle of that at age 77.  She gave her tickets away after that because her boyfriend had heart issues.  But she still watches every game in Toronto.  And the rest of my family all spread out across America does too.  I went to the first and third Bills Super Bowls.  Took my two boys down to Jacksonville for the Bills-Jags playoff game.  We are all very loyal to the team.  I was watching the draft with two boys last Thursday nite.  And my younger who is 17 says to me.  I remember when I was little, you would always be yelling at Trent Edwards, that he was always dumping it off instead of throwing down the field.  That cracked me up.    

[Jauronimo]

20 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I’ve been going through the years and I can’t remember a qb who has literally been trashed more then this guy yet is somehow successful heck even Josh Rosen who is almost out the league has gotten better publicity...just strange 

Most of the talking heads are high on Buffalo.  They have Allen as the best QB in the division.  

 

The obnoxious opinions from the extremely loud minority being shared all over Bills Mafia facebook and the budding QB controversy for simpletons are irrelevant.  When it comes to QB play we have 3 types of Bills fans:

 

1. The fast in love, thin skinned fan boys who see persecution everywhere  

2. The ardent haters who will never be convinced

3. The quiet and reasonable ones who recognize upside, flaws, progression, and regression when they see it.

 

11/10 threads and social median posts on the topic of QB play are started by the first 2 groups.