Do we have the Deepest D-Line in the league?

[MrEpsYtown]

Now that we have Cox we can really go deep. 

[billsfan89]

4 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

I look at defense from the standpoint of impact plays: INTs, forced fumbles, and sacks.  You can always debate which events on defense are most important, but swinging the momentum typically comes on defense with those results.  And, it gets the ball into your offense's hands more to score points.    

 

Buffalo didn't lose much talent from their 2019 defense, yet they added 4 DL in the draft and UFA.  To me, that's a lot of resources put into a unit that had already contributed to being 2nd in points allowed.  I don't think the loss of Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson really hurts them significantly.  I also recognize they needed to be replaced, and Epenesa probably fits into the role of base 40 front end.  

 

Still, is that investment likely to contribute to more wins against a more difficult 2020 schedule?  That question will be answered in short order.  

 

In the interim, per Spotrac, Buffalo is investing about 23% of their current cap dollars in the DL.  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/breakdown/  Perhaps they have the flexibility to continue that trend when Tre White, Dawkins, Milano, and Allen come up for contracts in 2020-21 although it's hard to tell because the cap is very flexible.

 

   

 

The point remains that player investment on defense should be centered on who provides impact plays and of course, on the offense.  That to me is what makes good teams excellent and improves the W-L record.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a lot of money on the D-line right now but the money isn't committed long term. The only contracts that are on the books for 2021 that come with a dead cap hit above 2 million dollars is Addison who is still a 4 million dollar dead cap hit and Star who comes with 7 million in dead money. The commitment the Bills have on the D-line is super flexible and shouldn't impact the team's ability to sign bigger players long term. In fact the only contract that is truly tragic as far as dead money is Star. 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

I think Addison 

Ya I was going to reply the same. He's an elite DE, stops run as well. He's going to be tough to keep off the first unit. 

 

But ya , this line is deep and talented.

 

This is the type of DLs u see playing in February. Alot of versatility and nastiness on them. 

 

If you think Mario Addison is elite I suggest you look up the word "elite". He has a been a good NFL player. But elite? No chance.

[BillsVet]

6 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

There is a lot of money on the D-line right now but the money isn't committed long term. The only contracts that are on the books for 2021 that come with a dead cap hit above 2 million dollars is Addison who is still a 4 million dollar dead cap hit and Star who comes with 7 million in dead money. The commitment the Bills have on the D-line is super flexible and shouldn't impact the team's ability to sign bigger players long term. In fact the only contract that is truly tragic as far as dead money is Star. 

 

It's not an immediate concern, but many of these short term UFA DL signings will need to be replaced with draftees, yet after 4 drafts they've got 3 younger players on the DL:  Phillips, Oliver and Epenesa.    

 

If they're going to perennially need a 7-8 man DL rotation, they'll require more draft picks because that seems like the HC's strategy.  

 

Bottom line is the 2020 Bills feature a lot of UFA's starting or contributing big minutes and the DL isn't the only example.  Their OL and WR groups are largely made up of UFAs or those they've traded for.    

 

Still, something to watch out for. 

[Motor26]

Ed Oliver is going to have his coming out party this year. 

[Richard Noggin]

12 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

I look at defense from the standpoint of impact plays: INTs, forced fumbles, and sacks.  You can always debate which events on defense are most important, but swinging the momentum typically comes on defense with those results.  And, it gets the ball into your offense's hands more to score points.    

 

Buffalo didn't lose much talent from their 2019 defense, yet they added 4 DL in the draft and UFA.  To me, that's a lot of resources put into a unit that had already contributed to being 2nd in points allowed.  I don't think the loss of Jordan Phillips and Shaq Lawson really hurts them significantly.  I also recognize they needed to be replaced, and Epenesa probably fits into the role of base 40 front end.  

 

Still, is that investment likely to contribute to more wins against a more difficult 2020 schedule?  That question will be answered in short order.  

 

In the interim, per Spotrac, Buffalo is investing about 23% of their current cap dollars in the DL.  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/breakdown/  Perhaps they have the flexibility to continue that trend when Tre White, Dawkins, Milano, and Allen come up for contracts in 2020-21 although it's hard to tell because the cap is very flexible.

 

   

 

The point remains that player investment on defense should be centered on who provides impact plays and of course, on the offense.  That to me is what makes good teams excellent and improves the W-L record.

 

 

 

 

 

 

First, thank you for the date-driven source. Maybe this hasn't been pointed out yet, but: a huge issue with these Bills positional cap percentages as posted in the graphic, is that Addison is being counted as an LB. 

 

So the Bills are ACTUALLY spending $59M on the DL (NOT $49M), and only $17M on LBs (NOT $28M--it was this bizarre LB allotment that caught my eye initially). That puts the Bills DL spending up to 27 or 28% of their cap (rather than 23% as posted). 

 

Really hope I'm not repeating someone else's scoop, as this correction further emphasizes the current lopsided cap allotment (that all our rookie contracts allow for as of 2020) that will have to be adjusted considerably once they pay Tre and Dawkins, and maybe Milano (although Milano getting paid would make this chart MORE accurate, with respect to the LB cap hits) and then eventually Allen. 

 

These numbers mean we should see some serious production and disruption from our down-linemen, eh?

[Richard Noggin]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:23 PM, BillsVet said:

Buffalo's DL depth largely is geared toward stopping the run and less so rushing the passer.  Of those players on the roster, Hughes, Oliver, (EDIT: Addison) and perhaps Murphy are the guys who might regularly get to the QB.  The rest are either unproven or not pass rushers.  

 

The key to good defense now is getting impact plays like sacks, INT's and fumble recoveries, not being strong against the run.  Buffalo collected 14 INTs, 9 fumble recoveries, and 44 sacks which combined ranked 11th in the NFL.    

Pass rushing prowess definitely matters, but...one could argue that defensive linemen don't earn the opportunity to rush the passer UNLESS they first stop the run. (And/or unless their offense scores points in bunches.)

 

A defense that can get after the QB but struggles to stop the run will only work when your offense scores a lot of points. 

[BillsVet]

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

First, thank you for the date-driven source. Maybe this hasn't been pointed out yet, but: a huge issue with these Bills positional cap percentages as posted in the graphic, is that Addison is being counted as an LB. 

 

So the Bills are ACTUALLY spending $59M on the DL (NOT $49M), and only $17M on LBs (NOT $28M--it was this bizarre LB allotment that caught my eye initially). That puts the Bills DL spending up to 27 or 28% of their cap (rather than 23% as posted). 

 

Really hope I'm not repeating someone else's scoop, as this correction further emphasizes the current lopsided cap allotment (that all our rookie contracts allow for as of 2020) that will have to be adjusted considerably once they pay Tre and Dawkins, and maybe Milano (although Milano getting paid would make this chart MORE accurate, with respect to the LB cap hits) and then eventually Allen. 

 

These numbers mean we should see some serious production and disruption from our down-linemen, eh?

 

I did not notice that Addison is being counted as a LB in that analysis.  That adds to my argument they've loaded up there and they've not yet signed Epenesa to his rookie contract. 

 

We're going to find out if this plan of featuring a deep DL pays off in wins.  Ultimately, I think McD wants to be strong against the run to force teams to pass into that secondary with White, Hyde, Poyer, and whomever is CB2. 

[BillsVet]

11 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

First, thank you for the date-driven source. Maybe this hasn't been pointed out yet, but: a huge issue with these Bills positional cap percentages as posted in the graphic, is that Addison is being counted as an LB. 

 

So the Bills are ACTUALLY spending $59M on the DL (NOT $49M), and only $17M on LBs (NOT $28M--it was this bizarre LB allotment that caught my eye initially). That puts the Bills DL spending up to 27 or 28% of their cap (rather than 23% as posted). 

 

Really hope I'm not repeating someone else's scoop, as this correction further emphasizes the current lopsided cap allotment (that all our rookie contracts allow for as of 2020) that will have to be adjusted considerably once they pay Tre and Dawkins, and maybe Milano (although Milano getting paid would make this chart MORE accurate, with respect to the LB cap hits) and then eventually Allen. 

 

These numbers mean we should see some serious production and disruption from our down-linemen, eh?

 

If you add in cap hits of Addison's ~10M 2020 contract and assume Epenesa with 1.25M for this year, we're talking about 61M going toward the DL of their ~215M in cap dollars spent (assuming 6M for rookie contracts this season).  That's approximately about 28% of their cap going to DL and the highest in the NFL so far as I can see.  

 

And yes, we should see significant production from that group.  My guess is also that Murphy with a 9.775M cap hit many not fit into this group given.  

 

Just trying to put some context around this.  The cap is flexible and many contracts are short term, but they'll have decisions to make on players soon.  Especially with White, perhaps Dawkins, and hopefully Allen up for extensions.  

 

[C.Biscuit97]

20 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Now that we have Cox we can really go deep. 

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If you think Mario Addison is elite I suggest you look up the word "elite". He has a been a good NFL player. But elite? No chance.

This something I notice with some fans (probably most fans).  I rarely heard Addison name brought up here (I think Bandit might have).  Now he’s elite?  Same thing with Diggs.  Very good player but he has become Jerry Rice since he joined the Bills.
 

I would love to see the reactions if Darnold was Bill and Allen was a Jet. 

[ngbills]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

This something I notice with some fans (probably most fans).  I rarely heard Addison name brought up here (I think Bandit might have).  Now he’s elite?  Same thing with Diggs.  Very good player but he has become Jerry Rice since he joined the Bills.
 

I would love to see the reactions if Darnold was Bill and Allen was a Jet. 

This 1 million percent. I know I should just ignore the so much of it but its hard not to get into it. Barkley and Fromm are way better than Cam or Winston would be as backups. Diggs is better than DeAndre Hopkins or drafting any of the WR's in this years draft. We trade a draft pick and the player we got is way better than any pick. We dont trade for a guy and its we value draft picks or its a strong draft class. Our 7th round guy pick is a steal and will be starting in a few years. Meanwhile every player another team gets is not a good fit, sucks and we did not want them. On and on. 

 

And I would bet my house that Allen as a Jet would be destroyed on these boards. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by ngbills

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, ngbills said:

This 1 million percent. I know I should just ignore the so much of it but its hard not to get into it. Barkley and Fromm are way better than Cam or Winston would be as backups. Diggs is better than DeAndre Hopkins or drafting any of the WR's in this years draft. We trade a draft pick and the player we got is way better than any pick. We dont trade for a guy and its we value draft picks or its a strong draft class. Our 7th round guy pick is a steal and will be starting in a few years. Meanwhile every player another team gets is not a good fit, sucks and we did not want them. On and on. 

 

And I would bet my house that Allen as a Jet would be destroyed on these boards. 

 

It is homerism, but it is a fan board after all. Some people struggle to be objective about it. 

 

I actually do genuinely love Stefon Diggs and have since he came into the league and I loved that move but there are moves this regime (like any) have made that I don't like and when that is the case I will say it. 

 

I tend, honestly, the value less the opinions of people who love every move and the opinions of people who hate every move. 

[BillsVet]

 

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is homerism, but it is a fan board after all. Some people struggle to be objective about it. 

 

I actually do genuinely love Stefon Diggs and have since he came into the league and I loved that move but there are moves this regime (like any) have made that I don't like and when that is the case I will say it. 

 

I tend, honestly, the value less the opinions of people who love every move and the opinions of people who hate every move. 

 

Those who are objective typically are chided or, at worst, ripped for not applauding most if not every move.  

 

I get that to be a fan you have to love the team.  At the same time it's not wrong to be analytical and compare your team to the successful ones.  

 

I want Buffalo to win the SB like any fan.  Loved the trade for Diggs, not keen on trying to be a top defense if it takes away from offensive investment given league trends and what the best teams are doing.  We'll see, but all fans' perspectives should be discussed openly and without judgement.  Here, that's a bridge too far when it comes to the biggest decisions.

[eball]

53 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

Those who are objective typically are chided or, at worst, ripped for not applauding most if not every move.

 

That's an exaggeration.  Those who encounter the behavior you cite are those who have rightfully earned it by being the ones who fail to find anything positive in anything the team does.

 

Far too many pessimists try to cloak themselves with labels of "realism" or "objectivity" when in truth, they're just pissed off about everything.

[GunnerBill]

49 minutes ago, eball said:

 

That's an exaggeration.  Those who encounter the behavior you cite are those who have rightfully earned it by being the ones who fail to find anything positive in anything the team does.

 

Far too many pessimists try to cloak themselves with labels of "realism" or "objectivity" when in truth, they're just pissed off about everything.

 

Not always. I am not a poster who hates everything and yet I have encountered some brutal takes from posters for not liking Bills moves. 

 

I actually got abusive and threatening (genuinely a poster who I don't think posts here any longer or if he does has changed name threatened to hack me ?) for hating the Peterman pick. I got more abuse for that than I did for not liking the Allen pick. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

That's an exaggeration.  Those who encounter the behavior you cite are those who have rightfully earned it by being the ones who fail to find anything positive in anything the team does.

 

Far too many pessimists try to cloak themselves with labels of "realism" or "objectivity" when in truth, they're just pissed off about everything.

You say that because you are consistently one of the posters who rips on posters who have anything negative to say. 

 

You are exactly who he is talking about.

[eball]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not always. I am not a poster who hates everything and yet I have encountered some brutal takes from posters for not liking Bills moves. 

 

I actually got abusive and threatening (genuinely a poster who I don't think posts here any longer or if he does has changed name threatened to hack me ?) for hating the Peterman pick. I got more abuse for that than I did for not liking the Allen pick. 

 

There are a few who are overly protective of the Bills but generally speaking I think if any opinion is presented in a reasonable way there is good discussion back and forth.

 

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

You say that because you are consistently one of the posters who rips on posters who have anything negative to say. 

 

You are exactly who he is talking about.

 

Umm, wrong, and wrong.  I react on occasion to posters who consistently take a negative viewpoint even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, ngbills said:

This 1 million percent. I know I should just ignore the so much of it but its hard not to get into it. Barkley and Fromm are way better than Cam or Winston would be as backups. Diggs is better than DeAndre Hopkins or drafting any of the WR's in this years draft. We trade a draft pick and the player we got is way better than any pick. We dont trade for a guy and its we value draft picks or its a strong draft class. Our 7th round guy pick is a steal and will be starting in a few years. Meanwhile every player another team gets is not a good fit, sucks and we did not want them. On and on. 

 

And I would bet my house that Allen as a Jet would be destroyed on these boards. 

Diggs is absolutely elite. He is a top route runner in the league who gets separation vs man at the top rate in the league

 

And catches everything thrown his way

[BuffaloHokie13]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Diggs is absolutely elite. He is a top route runner in the league who gets separation vs man at the top rate in the league

 

And catches everything thrown his way

Did he ever get that mailbox unstuck from his hand? That might make it harder to catch balls this year...

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Diggs is absolutely elite. He is a top route runner in the league who gets separation vs man at the top rate in the league

 

And catches everything thrown his way

Well we all have different definitions of elite. In my view elite is the top 3-5 guys at a position. Top 20 is good. If your saying he is top 3-5 in the league why has he had only 2 1000 yard seasons? Never caught 10+ TD's? On his career thus far he averages about 5 rec for 65 yds and under .5 TD per game. Very good but not elite...yet.