Is Big Nickel “Need” overblown?

[billsbackto81]

44 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Agreed.  While we don’t “need” it we could certainly upgrade.

 

That’s pretty much where our team is at this point.  We don’t “need” anything but we could stand to upgrade a few positions.

neal played fine.  Until he let Watson end our season.  Someone like Dugger or Chinn could take this D to another level in that position. 
 

having depth and players that can move around is very important for to this regime.

 

Good post. One of those 2 could elevate this defense even more, especially considering we don't have that 3rd caliber LB to go with Edmunds and Milano. Klein is serviceable but in a Big Nickel Dugger or Chinn would be a nasty addition.

[Mountain Man]

33 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

Call me crazy, but I can't picture McBeane spending a Day 2 pick in the draft upgrading a positon (where we already have a decent player) that only plays around 20% of the snaps on defense.

We don't currently have anyone in that position. 

[gobills404]

4 minutes ago, Mountain Man said:

We don't currently have anyone in that position. 

Neal and Marlowe it literally says that in the first tweet

[First Round Bust]

hybrid 6-1 or 6-2...220-225 lbs

 a big nickel that can play the run, cover TE and RBs in pass coverage and blitz so it confuses the offense by allowing more variety and diversity to your scheme and formations as such allows other LBs to blitz without sacrificing one slower in pass coverage. 

 

Can also play safety as backup and while developing experience will contribute on special teams.  

 

But I wonder if Dugger is gone before we pick what they would do ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freddyjj]

From what Carolina did in 2017 and based on Chinn's/Dugger 's athletic profiles, based on matchups, Bills D could go Big Nickel for 35-40% of downs in a year.  They help contain a mobile QB. Can cover TE on the RPO stuff.  They can pick up RBs in the flat or on wheel routes.  

 

Makes the D less susceptible to the run while in pass D packages.  Instead of a small 5'11 200 lb guy, you have someone who is 6'2" and 220 but can cover like a CB.  Can see the value of a hybrid player like this immediately and they could actually replace Milano if he leaves.

Edited April 25, 2020 by freddyjj

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I think people are misinterpreting what the position would be, or I am. The consensus is a situational role player subbing in for the NC. That is what Neal and some of other Safetys did. They are 190-200 pounds and are larger than our normal Nickle corner.

 

What this "Buffalo Nickle" is, a big former Safety (215-220 pounds, none of our current Safetys are over 200lbs) who are very fast, very strong, very physical, very agile. They are new age LBs who lack the traditional pounds, but are elite athletes. These Buffalo Backers can stay in a base defense when opponents go 3 wide, or cover these crazy TEs. This isn't a gimic situational player, but a new age defensive weapon. 

 

We could see 2 by the time Sunday rolls around.

[mjt328]

Is it a HUGE NEED.  Absolutely not.

But in all honesty, we don't have ANY really big needs this year.  Any position we draft is going to be playing a limited number of snaps as a rookie.

 

Lots of people want a Running Back.  Whoever we draft is going to splitting carries with Devin Singletary.  

Lots of people want a Wide Receiver.  A draftee would be #4 at best behind Stefon Diggs, John Brown and Cole Beasley.

Lots of people want a Defensive End.  A rookie would rotate behind Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison and Quinton Jefferson.

Lots of people want a Cornerback.  We already have a competition of Josh Norman, Levi Wallace and EJ Gaines opposite Tre White.

 

Our current Big Nickel is usually Siran Neal, who is better suited as a pure backup Safety.

Upgrading Neal would give us more ability to cover TEs, while not sacrificing run support.  It's another chess piece for our coaching staff.

 

 

[Just Joshin']

3 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I think people are misinterpreting what the position would be, or I am. The consensus is a situational role player subbing in for the NC. That is what Neal and some of other Safetys did. They are 190-200 pounds and are larger than our normal Nickle corner.

 

What this "Buffalo Nickle" is, a big former Safety (215-220 pounds, none of our current Safetys are over 200lbs) who are very fast, very strong, very physical, very agile. They are new age LBs who lack the traditional pounds, but are elite athletes. These Buffalo Backers can stay in a base defense when opponents go 3 wide, or cover these crazy TEs. This isn't a gimic situational player, but a new age defensive weapon. 

 

We could see 2 by the time Sunday rolls around.

The trick is to find someone who can fill all these roles and be stout against the run.

 

If it was easy to fill that role there would be no discussion as every team would have two.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Just now, Just Joshin' said:

The trick is to find someone who can fill all these roles and be stout against the run.

 

If it was easy to fill that role there would be no discussion as every team would have two.

It started with Mark Barron and that dude the Jags have, it's just been a slow evolution 

[Stank_Nasty]

1 minute ago, mjt328 said:

Is it a HUGE NEED.  Absolutely not.

But in all honesty, we don't have ANY really big needs this year.  Any position we draft is going to be playing a limited number of snaps as a rookie.

 

Lots of people want a Running Back.  Whoever we draft is going to splitting carries with Devin Singletary.  

Lots of people want a Wide Receiver.  A draftee would be #4 at best behind Stefon Diggs, John Brown and Cole Beasley.

Lots of people want a Defensive End.  A rookie would rotate behind Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison and Quinton Jefferson.

Lots of people want a Cornerback.  We already have a competition of Josh Norman, Levi Wallace and EJ Gaines opposite Tre White.

 

Our current Big Nickel is usually Siran Neal, who is better suited as a pure backup Safety.

Upgrading Neal would give us more ability to cover TEs, while not sacrificing run support.  It's another chess piece for our coaching staff.

 

 

This right here is exactly why I’m just drafting whatever big time talent slips through. If it’s one of those big hybrid safeties so be it. 
 

just get a player you think can impact the game. Impact players, to me, are more important than any “need” they might have for depth. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

I guess the question is would you rather have another playmaker on offense or defense?

 

Its a pretty easy answer for me....

Defense.

 

A WR is the 4th guy for at least 2 more years.

A RB is possible what that basically says "take a seat" to Singletary.

[mjt328]

7 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I think people are misinterpreting what the position would be, or I am. The consensus is a situational role player subbing in for the NC. That is what Neal and some of other Safetys did. They are 190-200 pounds and are larger than our normal Nickle corner.

 

What this "Buffalo Nickle" is, a big former Safety (215-220 pounds, none of our current Safetys are over 200lbs) who are very fast, very strong, very physical, very agile. They are new age LBs who lack the traditional pounds, but are elite athletes. These Buffalo Backers can stay in a base defense when opponents go 3 wide, or cover these crazy TEs. This isn't a gimic situational player, but a new age defensive weapon. 

 

We could see 2 by the time Sunday rolls around.

 

Right now, the Bills defense would probably look like this, depending on the package:

- AJ Klein starting at SLB in base 4-3 looks

- Taron Johnson starting at NCB in pure nickel defense against 3 wide receivers

- Siran Neal starting at NCB in the big nickel

 

From what I understand (from those who studied Carolina's old defensive packages), Sean McDermott actually prefers to go with the Big Nickel formation more often.  We just haven't had an exact fit in his first 3 years here.  The recent interest in Kyle Dugger and Jeremy Chinn is causing several to connect the dots.

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

22 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Right now, the Bills defense would probably look like this, depending on the package:

- AJ Klein starting at SLB in base 4-3 looks

- Taron Johnson starting at NCB in pure nickel defense against 3 wide receivers

- Siran Neal starting at NCB in the big nickel

 

From what I understand (from those who studied Carolina's old defensive packages), Sean McDermott actually prefers to go with the Big Nickel formation more often.  We just haven't had an exact fit in his first 3 years here.  The recent interest in Kyle Dugger and Jeremy Chinn is causing several to connect the dots.

 

 

Right, a rookie buffalo nickle basically sends Klien and Neal to the bench (eventually) 

[Buddo]

Alternatively, eventually we could just get another elite LB with the necessary wheels.

 

Sometimes I believe we overthink this stuff.

 

The 'Big Nickel' strikes me as simply being a way to adjust to certain situations, where you haven't got the necessary base talent. i.e. 3, 3 down LBs.

 

I understand the necessity to do this currently, but I don't think it has to be an approach set in stone, at all.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 minute ago, Buddo said:

Alternatively, eventually we could just get another elite LB with the necessary wheels.

 

Sometimes I believe we overthink this stuff.

 

The 'Big Nickel' strikes me as simply being a way to adjust to certain situations, where you haven't got the necessary base talent. i.e. 3, 3 down LBs.

 

I understand the necessity to do this currently, but I don't think it has to be an approach set in stone, at all.

I think the main difference is elite agility and explosiveness. These guys are probably better in coverage. Also hard to nab truly elite LB outside the first half of round 1.

[Buddo]

17 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I think the main difference is elite agility and explosiveness. These guys are probably better in coverage. Also hard to nab truly elite LB outside the first half of round 1.

 

I couldn't argue there, but another Edmunds type could solve the 'problem'.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

4 minutes ago, Buddo said:

 

I couldn't argue there, but another Edmunds type could solve the 'problem'.

Agreed, but they are few and far between. In theory, this player will have better coverage skills and more agile than even Edmunds.

 

The sacrifice would likely be getting off blocks, but Matt Milano does fine.

Edited April 24, 2020 by TheyCallMeAndy

[whatdrought]

Is the Need for a RB overblown? How about the need for an Edge? The Need for a WR? A CB?

 

The answer to all of those, I believe, is yes. We aren't drafting a player at 54 because we need him in the sense that we don't have anyone else to play that spot. We're drafting for supplement, and competition. 

 

So to answer your question, I think we could use/get a return of value on a big nickel as much as we could just about any other position in this draft. We're in a good spot, we can be luxurious and take whose there. 

[gjv001]

I think McDermott has done the homework and concluded having a Big Nickel is a critical necessity for today's NFL defenses. With that said, I have no problem with Dugger or Chinn at 54.

[stuvian]

Big Nickel can be found in Sudbury Ontario