Defensive Backs in Top 10 of Round 1

[Jauronimo]

21 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Von Miller

Orlando Pace

Larry Fitzgerald

Bruce Smith

Earl Campbell

Jonathan Ogden

 

These guys were pretty important to their teams to name a few.

Yes, they were very important and each one a great pick (although in the modern game no running back seems to be that valuable).  I think jrober's argument about changing the fortunes of a franchise is a poor metric since in the modern game of football only a QB can have that kind of impact.  I think we can all agree that limiting your selection on draft day to only QBs in the top 5 is silly.

 

- Von Miller is the first player I thought of due to his dominance in the Super Bowl and MVP award.  But the Bronco's success was largely due to Peyton Manning until their super bowl year when the defense led by Von and two strong CBs carried Manning's corpse to a title.  The Broncos aren't even a playoff team now.

- Orlando Pace is a great player but that team was all about Warner, Martz, Faulk, Bruce, and Holt putting up crazy points.

- Fitz is the man but without Warner or Palmer the Cards are bottom feeders and have been for much of his sterling career.

- Bruce played with how many other hall of famers on both sides of the ball.  Its hard to credit any one player on the amazing team Polian assembled.

- Earl is so far before my time I can't comment other than the game has changed and examples like OJ and Jim Brown do not have the same relevance in a pass happy league.

- No one will ever forget how Jonathan Ogden kept Trent Dilfer clean while the Raven's juggernaut offense moved into field goal position.  Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, your man Haloti Ngata, CJ Mosely were the heart of all those Raven's teams. 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Yes, they were very important and each one a great pick (although in the modern game no running back seems to be that valuable).  I think jrober's argument about changing the fortunes of a franchise is a poor metric since in the modern game of football only a QB can have that kind of impact.  I think we can all agree that limiting your selection on draft day to only QBs in the top 5 is silly.

 

- Von Miller is the first player I thought of due to his dominance in the Super Bowl and MVP award.  But the Bronco's success was largely due to Peyton Manning until their super bowl year when the defense led by Von and two strong CBs carried Manning's corpse to a title.  The Broncos aren't even a playoff team now.

- Orlando Pace is a great player but that team was all about Warner, Martz, Faulk, Bruce, and Holt putting up crazy points.

- Fitz is the man but without Warner or Palmer the Cards are bottom feeders and have been for much of his sterling career.

- Bruce played with how many other hall of famers on both sides of the ball.  Its hard to credit any one player on the amazing team Polian assembled.

- Earl is so far before my time I can't comment other than the game has changed and examples like OJ and Jim Brown do not have the same relevance in a pass happy league.

- No one will ever forget how Jonathan Ogden kept Trent Dilfer clean while the Raven's juggernaut offense moved into field goal position.  Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, your man Haloti Ngata, CJ Mosely were the heart of all those Raven's teams. 

Lol

[Bill from NYC]

Did you see the Super Bowl that the Rams won? Pace pretty much took over the very close game. Warner was good but imo it would be a huge mistake to think that not having to worry about his blind side did not have a drastic positive effect on his play.

I do however think that I get why you are trying to say. I don't think that any one person was totally responsible for the success of a franchise. This would not be possible. Were the players that I mentioned instrumental in making their teams much better? Absolutely.

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Funniest part is neither the Lions or Jags were good football teams with pro bowl level players at those positions.  So their plan is to replace those top tier players with rookies?  How about fixing the trenches first...getting your QB some help in protection or weapons...etc etc.  

 

So on the Jags I think both lines are an issue. On the Lions their biggest issues have been the secondary (despite Slay the other three have been disaster zones) and obviously last year losing their Quarterback and their backup.

[Chandler#81]

Read every post and was surprised no one has yet mentioned specifically that the AFCW went big on CB very early, as the Chiefs high potent offense is clearly atop that Division. A trio of great WRs and skilled pass catching TE’s & RB’s. Carrying this premise out further, they all play the AFCE this season where at least the prohibitive favorite boasts much of the same (Us).

 

in order to be the best, you gotta Beat the best.

 

Shaping up as a Helluva season!

[CookieG]

27 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Revis made that Jets defense.  Not having to worry about one half of the football field makes your job a lot easier.

 

I think it was @thebandit27 who discussed  a draft strategy that makes much sense to me in using your early picks on positions that you pretty much can't address in free agency or trade with any reliability.  Those are your money positions.  QB, EDGE, Left Tackle, #1 WR, shutdown CB.

 

Guards, Centers, D Tackles, Linebackers, Running backs, safeties, tight ends, slot WRs need not apply.

Yeah well, ..there's Revis..and um...Deion Sanders and...um...maybe Patrick Peterson, but then...how good have the Cards been since he's been drafted?  (3 winning season out of 8).

 

I don't know if you make it a rule that a DB is the cornerstone of your franchise when the two examples are from 20 and 30 years ago and are HOF'ers.

 

Cleveland has done it a number of times...Joe Haden, Denzell Ward, Justin Gilbert and people are still waiting for them to turn it around.  And hell, both Haden and Ward are good.  But neither transformed the Browns.

 

The Jets spent a better part of the Rex Ryan era using their top pick on a DB, and that was when they had Revis.  After initial success, they've been a bad, bad franchise.

 

And of course..there's the droughty Bills.

 

Not to mention that there is a pretty high bust factor.

 

Dee Millner

Justin Gilbert

Mo Claiborne

Eli Apple is going to be on his 3rd team since 2016, provided someone picks him up.

 

Those are guys taken in the top 10 in just the past 8 years. I think there were only 8 taken in the top 10 during that time.

 

Its about a 50% bust ratio.

 

Its an important position..but wayyyyy overrated as the place to build a franchise

 

 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, CookieG said:

Yeah well, ..there's Revis..and um...Deion Sanders and...um...maybe Patrick Peterson, but then...how good have the Cards been since he's been drafted?  (3 winning season out of 8).

 

I don't know if you make it a rule that a DB is the cornerstone of your franchise when the two examples are from 20 and 30 years ago and are HOF'ers.

 

Cleveland has done it a number of times...Joe Haden, Denzell Ward, Justin Gilbert and people are still waiting for them to turn it around.  And hell, both Haden and Ward are good.  But neither transformed the Browns.

 

The Jets spent a better part of the Rex Ryan era using their top pick on a DB, and that was when they had Revis.  After initial success, they've been a bad, bad franchise.

 

And of course..there's the droughty Bills.

 

Not to mention that there is a pretty high bust factor.

 

Dee Millner

Justin Gilbert

Mo Claiborne

Eli Apple is going to be on his 3rd team since 2016, provided someone picks him up.

 

Those are guys taken in the top 10 in just the past 8 years. I think there were only 8 taken in the top 10 during that time.

 

Its about a 50% bust ratio.

 

Its an important position..but wayyyyy overrated as the place to build a franchise

 

 

You can play this game with every position. The Redskins just picked Young, do you think they win the Super Bowl in the next 3 years?

[Jauronimo]

3 minutes ago, CookieG said:

Yeah well, ..there's Revis..and um...Deion Sanders and...um...maybe Patrick Peterson, but then...how good have the Cards been since he's been drafted?  (3 winning season out of 8).

 

I don't know if you make it a rule that a DB is the cornerstone of your franchise when the two examples are from 20 and 30 years ago and are HOF'ers.

 

Cleveland has done it a number of times...Joe Haden, Denzell Ward, Justin Gilbert and people are still waiting for them to turn it around.  And hell, both Haden and Ward are good.  But neither transformed the Browns.

 

The Jets spent a better part of the Rex Ryan era using their top pick on a DB, and that was when they had Revis.  After initial success, they've been a bad, bad franchise.

 

And of course..there's the droughty Bills.

 

Not to mention that there is a pretty high bust factor.

 

Dee Millner

Justin Gilbert

Mo Claiborne

Eli Apple is going to be on his 3rd team since 2016, provided someone picks him up.

 

Those are guys taken in the top 10 in just the past 8 years. I think there were only 8 taken in the top 10 during that time.

 

Its about a 50% bust ratio.

 

Its an important position..but wayyyyy overrated as the place to build a franchise

 

 

I guess its a good thing I have never said CB is or should be the cornerstone of the franchise.  Other than being completely irrelevant to anything I have written in this thread, nice post.  I love the classic "if you disagree with me then you must certainly believe the extreme opposite" logic. 

 

Now go through the same exercise for every other position in the game and show me what positions we are allowed to draft in the first round. Probably kicker.  Only one first round kicker and he was a stud on the field!

 

[CookieG]

10 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

I guess its a good thing I have never said CB is or should be the cornerstone of the franchise.  Other than being completely irrelevant to anything I have written in this thread, nice post.  I love the classic "if you disagree with me then you must certainly believe the extreme opposite" logic. 

 

Now go through the same exercise for every other position in the game and show me what positions we are allowed to draft in the first round. Probably kicker.  Only one first round kicker and he was a stud on the field!

 

Then what exactly DID you say?

 

You're the one prattling on about Revis and how CB is one of the few "money positions" on the field.

 

I love the classic, "oh *****, someone presented facts to refute my theory, so I better get snide with him," routine.

 

Let me know when you come up with something factual.

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So on the Jags I think both lines are an issue. On the Lions their biggest issues have been the secondary (despite Slay the other three have been disaster zones) and obviously last year losing their Quarterback and their backup.

 

I just don't think replacing Slay with a rookie is going to move that team forward.  Yes, he is the top corner in the draft (graded at least), but look at the board, there are a lot of really promising corners and safeties on the board for their pick in the 2nd.  

18 minutes ago, CookieG said:

Yeah well, ..there's Revis..and um...Deion Sanders and...um...maybe Patrick Peterson, but then...how good have the Cards been since he's been drafted?  (3 winning season out of 8).

 

I don't know if you make it a rule that a DB is the cornerstone of your franchise when the two examples are from 20 and 30 years ago and are HOF'ers.

 

Cleveland has done it a number of times...Joe Haden, Denzell Ward, Justin Gilbert and people are still waiting for them to turn it around.  And hell, both Haden and Ward are good.  But neither transformed the Browns.

 

The Jets spent a better part of the Rex Ryan era using their top pick on a DB, and that was when they had Revis.  After initial success, they've been a bad, bad franchise.

 

And of course..there's the droughty Bills.

 

Not to mention that there is a pretty high bust factor.

 

Dee Millner

Justin Gilbert

Mo Claiborne

Eli Apple is going to be on his 3rd team since 2016, provided someone picks him up.

 

Those are guys taken in the top 10 in just the past 8 years. I think there were only 8 taken in the top 10 during that time.

 

Its about a 50% bust ratio.

 

Its an important position..but wayyyyy overrated as the place to build a franchise

 

 

 

All positions have about a 50% bust ratio in the top 10.  

[Jauronimo]

9 minutes ago, CookieG said:

Then what exactly DID you say?

 

You're the one prattling on about Revis and how CB is one of the few "money positions" on the field.

 

I love the classic, "oh *****, someone presented facts to refute my theory, so I better get snide with him," routine.

 

Let me know when you come up with something factual.

Go read the thread and catch up with the rest of the class.  Its all there in text. Take time off for headaches.

[Augie]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I do get Bill's point on this but this is not a class littered with studs. I think there were 3 slam dunk players in this class and they went 1,2 and 3. 

 

I thought the Lions would trade down too but per Schefter a lot of interest never materialised into a firm offer. So then what do you do? They have a need at pass rusher but there was nobody there who was even nearly worth the pick. Take a left tackle? Except they have a left tackle they drafted in the first round in Taylor Decker who has played pretty well. Take Tua? Yea they could have done that I suppose but there is a very good chance that Matt Stafford is a better Quarterback than Tua for at least the next couple of years. 

 

I have sympathy with the argument. I just don't necessarily see the alternative. Now if you want to slam Detroit for a first round pick start with them passing on Ed Oliver and Brian Burns last year to draft a freaking tight end at #8. 

 

I won’t slam them for that at all. In fact, I will be eternally grateful!!!     

 

 I thought of sending flowers, but that just felt wrong.....

[CookieG]

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Go read the thread and catch up with the rest of the class.  Its all there in text. Take time off for headaches. "

 

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

 

 

I think it was @thebandit27 who discussed  a draft strategy that makes much sense to me in using your early picks on positions that you pretty much can't address in free agency or trade with any reliability.  Those are your money positions.  QB, EDGE, Left Tackle, #1 WR, shutdown CB."

Let me know what I missed.

 

"Let me know when you come up with something factual."

 

 

Well, I tried.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Go read the thread and catch up with the rest of the class.  Its all there in text. Take time off for headaches.

Why is it that you see fit to be so condescending? Does it make you feel better about yourself? I hope that you are happier and more satisfied in life than you appear to be in this thread.

Stay healthy and God bless.

[Jauronimo]

52 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Why is it that you see fit to be so condescending? Does it make you feel better about yourself? I hope that you are happier and more satisfied in life than you appear to be in this thread.

Stay healthy and God bless.

I feel the need to put fools in their place who make ridiculous strawman arguments.  I disagree with the opinion that drafting defensive backs in the first round is a waste and somehow this wingnut construes that as me declaring that defensive back is the most important position on the field and fires back in an obnoxious manner. 

 

Anyone who reads this:

Quote

 

Revis made that Jets defense.  Not having to worry about one half of the football field makes your job a lot easier.

 

I think it was @thebandit27 who discussed  a draft strategy that makes much sense to me in using your early picks on positions that you pretty much can't address in free agency or trade with any reliability.  Those are your money positions.  QB, EDGE, Left Tackle, #1 WR, shutdown CB.

 

Guards, Centers, D Tackles, Linebackers, Running backs, safeties, tight ends, slot WRs need not apply.

 and then responds with:

 

Quote

I don't know if you make it a rule that a DB is the cornerstone of your franchise when the two examples are from 20 and 30 years ago and are HOF'ers.

 and then further demands to know "just what I am saying", when its plainly written in the text that he responded to in the first place, deserves to get slapped around a little.  Or a lot.  

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I just don't think replacing Slay with a rookie is going to move that team forward.  Yes, he is the top corner in the draft (graded at least), but look at the board, there are a lot of really promising corners and safeties on the board for their pick in the 2nd.  

 

 

I do get that Alpha... and as I keep saying, I am sympathetic to the argument. What I still haven't been convinced by is what is alternative that makes that team better this year. I'm not sure how many a wins an upgrade at right tackle buys either. The right decision was a trade down, but nobody ended up making them an offer. So in that case staying in your spot and taking the best player available and it being a guy who plays a premium position at that #1 outside corner spot? I can't criticise them for that.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I won’t slam them for that at all. In fact, I will be eternally grateful!!!     

 

 I thought of sending flowers, but that just felt wrong.....

 

There are at least 4 teams who passed on Ed Oliver who will regret it. The Cardinals, 49ers and Jags can't be knocked for their picks and if Daniel Jones continues to ascend then the Giants can't either. But the Jets? Raiders? Buccs? Lions? Man. Those four teams will be sorry for a long time.

[jrober38]

The Lions are completely inept. 

[Bill from NYC]

13 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 But the Jets? Raiders? Buccs? Lions? Man. Those four teams will be sorry for a long time.

This was a portion of what I was trying to get across with my OP. Stupidity is the norm for the Lions and Jags.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

This was a portion of what I was trying to get across with my OP. Stupidity is the norm for the Lions and Jags.

 

The two tight end picks in the top 10 are stupid I agree with that. My point back to you though was they have been a build up the trenches team since drafting their franchise QB and they have still lost for the most part. 

 

The Lions stupidity has been in never having a settled culture, until Quinn and Patricia they never seemed to have coaches and GMs on the same page and their talent evaluation hasn't been good enough. I would argue they have over drafted players for the trenches when they should have taken better players at other spots.