Defensive Backs in Top 10 of Round 1

[Bill from NYC]

5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

At what pick is it acceptable to select a DB? 

Doesn't it depend on the team. I am guessing not at #3 when your team is filled with holes and there are great players out there. What do you think?

 

Btw, is there any situation where it is too early or ill advised to draft a DB. Should teams trade up to #1 to take them?

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

Look, there really isn't any debate that the Bills did not score enough points last season.  The defense played about as well as you can expect a defense to play in this modern era, and it still wasn't good enough to beat good teams.  Since they aren't about to replace the QB, the only solution is to give that QB better weapons, and one new WR isn't nearly enough.

 

Don't disagree with any of that. 

[Bill from NYC]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes because they have a playmaker at QB, an elite OT and a future hall of famer at guard. The tight ends are nice players. But they aren't elite weapons.

 

That wasn't quite the argument. I would have taken Wirfs myself as the Giants but if not him then Thomas because the Giants needed a left tackle. The Lions do not need a left tackle was my point. They already have a really good one. An argument that someone who was a top end right tackle could go in there is one I have more sympathy with. 

Thomas was shown on film last night playing RT and LT GB.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Bill from NYC said:

Thomas was shown of film last night playing RT and LT GB.

 

Okay so you'd have taken Thomas an played him right tackle? Fair enough.

 

I still think valuing right tackle above #1 corner isn't a great strategy in my mind. The Lions have drafted loads of oline and dline in the first round for the last decade. It hasn't helped. 

 

It is about talent evaluation first and foremost.

[Bill from NYC]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Okay so you'd have taken Thomas an played him right tackle? Fair enough.

 

I still think valuing right tackle above #1 corner isn't a great strategy in my mind. The Lions have drafted loads of oline and dline in the first round for the last decade. It hasn't helped. 

 

It is about talent evaluation first and foremost.

Not necessarily. Open competition is OK too.

[Bill from NYC]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I still think valuing right tackle above #1 corner isn't a great strategy in my mind. The Lions have drafted loads of oline and dline in the first round for the last decade. It hasn't helped. 

 

It is about talent evaluation first and foremost.

Yeah and they didn't do so well at it. They also seemed to emphasize DT over pass rushers.

 

And of course, teams have to be able to evaluate players. We should know after decades of incompetence.

[Jauronimo]

19 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Doesn't it depend on the team. I am guessing not at #3 when your team is filled with holes and there are great players out there. What do you think?

 

Btw, is there any situation where it is too early or ill advised to draft a DB. Should teams trade up to #1 to take them?

If CB is a hole and the BPA is a CB at #3, I don't get the criticism. 

 

Your sense of betrayal from the selections of Whitner, Leodis, Spiller, Lynch, and McGahee without further facts or discussion isn't a very compelling argument.  

 

Try to contain your emotions in your response.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Yeah and they didn't do so well at it. They also seemed to emphasize DT over pass rushers.

 

And of course, teams have to be able to evaluate players. We should know after decades of incompetence.

 

They were pass rushing DTs though for the main. They weren't drafting a load of 1 techs. 

 

You draft linemen as many times as you like. Ultimately it comes down to drafting well. And other than Decker, Ragnow and Suh they haven't for the most part. Okudah will at least be really good. 

 

I do take your point though that Okudah on his own does not turn that team around next year. Just not sure Thomas does either because tackle hasn't been their issue. 

[Bill from NYC]

5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If CB is a hole and the BPA is a CB at #3, I don't get the criticism. 

 

Your sense of betrayal from the selections of Whitner, Leodis, Spiller, Lynch, and McGahee without further facts or discussion isn't a very compelling argument.  

 

Try to contain your emotions in your response.

Thanks for the football dialogue but please spare me your emotional guidance and worry about improving your own rather boring drivel.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Jauronimo]

18 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Thanks for the football dialogue but please spare me your emotional guidance and worry about improving your own rather boring drivel.

Better or worse?  Your feedback is appreciated.

 

[jrober38]

29 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If CB is a hole and the BPA is a CB at #3, I don't get the criticism. 

 

Your sense of betrayal from the selections of Whitner, Leodis, Spiller, Lynch, and McGahee without further facts or discussion isn't a very compelling argument.  

 

Try to contain your emotions in your response.

 

I think the argument is that it should be impossible for a CB to be the best player available at #3. 

 

Like, when has a top 5 pick CB ever changed the fortunes of a franchise over the past 20 years?

 

I can't think of a single player. 

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

I think the argument is that it should be impossible for a CB to be the best player available at #3. 

 

Like, when has a top 5 pick CB ever changed the fortunes of a franchise over the past 20 years?

 

I can't think of a single player. 

If that's the test then I suppose you shouldn't draft anything besides QB in the first 5 picks (perhaps even first round).  Name one player that isn't a QB, selected in the first 5 picks that changed the fortunes of a franchise.  

[mannc]

11 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I think the argument is that it should be impossible for a CB to be the best player available at #3. 

 

Like, when has a top 5 pick CB ever changed the fortunes of a franchise over the past 20 years?

 

I can't think of a single player. 

Darrell Revis, but he was not taken in the top 5.

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, mannc said:

Darrell Revis, but he was not taken in the top 5.

Revis made that Jets defense.  Not having to worry about one half of the football field makes your job a lot easier.

 

I think it was @thebandit27 who discussed  a draft strategy that makes much sense to me in using your early picks on positions that you pretty much can't address in free agency or trade with any reliability.  Those are your money positions.  QB, EDGE, Left Tackle, #1 WR, shutdown CB.

 

Guards, Centers, D Tackles, Linebackers, Running backs, safeties, tight ends, slot WRs need not apply.

[thebandit27]

10 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Revis made that Jets defense.  Not having to worry about one half of the football field makes your job a lot easier.

 

I think it was @thebandit27 who discussed  a draft strategy that makes much sense to me in using your early picks on positions that you pretty much can't address in free agency or trade with any reliability.  Those are your money positions.  QB, EDGE, Left Tackle, #1 WR, shutdown CB.

 

Guards, Centers, D Tackles, Linebackers, Running backs, safeties, tight ends, slot WRs need not apply.

Yeah that’s more or less how I feel.

 

I would append that to say “pass rusher” instead of EDGE, because I think an Ed Oliver type qualifies since he can have such a huge impact on the passing game.

And for the most part, teams followed suit yesterday. Breakdown of 1sts from last night:

 

4 QBs

1 RB

0 TE

6 WRs

1 IOL

5 OTs

2 EDGE rushers

2 IDLs (and both are good pass rushers)

3 LBs

6 corners

0 safeties 

 

So 5 out of 32 picks are non-premium, and one of those is Simmons, who may end up an elite player. The only exceptions I would say make sense is if you’re a team like NO or KC and believe you’re one player away, so you go for a Ruiz or CEH in round 1. Understandable, but unwise long-term IMO.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

47 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Better or worse?  Your feedback is appreciated.

 

 

At this point, it's ancient tradition.

 

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Yeah that’s more or less how I feel.

 

I would append that to say “pass rusher” instead of EDGE, because I think an Ed Oliver type qualifies since he can have such a huge impact on the passing game.

And for the most part, teams followed suit yesterday. Breakdown of 1sts from last night:

 

4 QBs

1 RB

0 TE

6 WRs

1 IOL

5 OTs

2 EDGE rushers

2 IDLs (and both are good pass rushers)

3 LBs

6 corners

0 safeties 

 

So 5 out of 32 picks are non-premium, and one of those is Simmons, who may end up an elite player. The only exceptions I would say make sense is if you’re a team like NO or KC and believe you’re one player away, so you go for a Ruiz or CEH in round 1. Understandable, but unwise long-term IMO.

 

That's why Derrick Brown would've been the better pick IMO.  Keep Slay if you need a corner - you've got a good one - and draft Brown who can blow up a passing game and has an A+ football character.

[Bill from NYC]

31 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If that's the test then I suppose you shouldn't draft anything besides QB in the first 5 picks (perhaps even first round).  Name one player that isn't a QB, selected in the first 5 picks that changed the fortunes of a franchise.  

Von Miller

Orlando Pace

Larry Fitzgerald

Bruce Smith

Earl Campbell

Jonathan Ogden

 

These guys were pretty important to their teams to name a few.

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I was not surprised to see the Jaguars and the Lions draft Top 10 first round DBs. Why not? Because one can make a case that these particular teams are long time second rate organizations. Their drafts are every bit as bad as ours in the "bad old days" or so it would seem.

The Lions were just so bad that they picked at #3. Could one even imagine how many problems they had to pick so early? They have a QB with a monster arm and there were receivers galore. They probably could have traded down and selected Lamb, Ruggs or Jeudy AND acquired extra picks but no; they really had to take that corner at #3. There were very good blockers available, and they could have even taken a QB to eventually replace Stafford. Incredible.

 

The Jags are another team that historically drafts poorly. They have issues galore. Their method of fixing said issues? A DB at #9. While unquestionably stupid, it was not quite on the same level of idiocy displayed by the ever horrible Lions, who would even appear to be tanking for Trevor.

 

I am on record as being skeptical of the trade for Diggs, but it looks wonderful compared to the above decisions.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Diggs trade was proven to be an excellent decision.  All 3 of the top WRs were gone by pick 17, the compensation we paid to get Diggs was equal to moving up to 18.  That means we would have had to have paid more to get one of the top 3 WRs, which are the best guys with a chance to be as good as Diggs and could still underperform to expectations or even just flat out bust.  

 

More importantly, we threw in extra 5th and 6th round picks, plus next years 4th (equivalent to a 5th this year) to get Diggs.  To move around in the first round, we would have had to include less picks, but more valuable picks like our 2nd and maybe even also our 3rd or 4th this year too. 

 

End result, we landed a top tier WR in Diggs for one first, and 3 day 3 or later picks (2 of which were extra from Beane fleecing teams trading them bad players last year who were gonna get cut anyway).  And Diggs is the #1 WR at contested catches, the leading deep threat, an elite route runner, and a fiery competitor who is just 26 on a team friendly contract for 4 years that will step in and for sure make an immediate impact to this offense and Allens development.  

 

Now on to your criticisms...fully agree.  No chance in hell I am taking a CB with the 3rd pick in the draft.  Lions get rid of slay, to just use the 3rd pick to replace him?  Jags get rid of Ramsey and likely Yannick to just use both first round picks to replace them?  Both were bad teams with proven talent at those positions, so now they get rid of the talent and replace with rookies that will more than likely not be as good as the guys they are replacing?  Feels like spinning your wheels in a pool of mud.  

 

Funniest part is neither the Lions or Jags were good football teams with pro bowl level players at those positions.  So their plan is to replace those top tier players with rookies?  How about fixing the trenches first...getting your QB some help in protection or weapons...etc etc.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Diggs trade was proven to be an excellent decision.  All 3 of the top WRs were gone by pick 17, the compensation we paid to get Diggs was equal to moving up to 18.  That means we would have had to have paid more to get one of the top 3 WRs, which are the best guys with a chance to be as good as Diggs and could still underperform to expectations or even just flat out bust.  

 

More importantly, we threw in extra 5th and 6th round picks, plus next years 4th (equivalent to a 5th this year) to get Diggs.  To move around in the first round, we would have had to include less picks, but more valuable picks like our 2nd and maybe even also our 3rd or 4th this year too. 

 

End result, we landed a top tier WR in Diggs for one first, and 3 day 3 or later picks (2 of which were extra from Beane fleecing teams trading them bad players last year who were gonna get cut anyway).  And Diggs is the #1 WR at contested catches, the leading deep threat, an elite route runner, and a fiery competitor who is just 26 on a team friendly contract for 4 years that will step in and for sure make an immediate impact to this offense and Allens development.  

 

 

 

Bingo!

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Joe in Winslow