Defensive Backs in Top 10 of Round 1

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes this is certainly true. Indeed drafting Ramsey was an excellent pick as he was the best player on a team that made the AFC title game. Trading him away to spend that pick on Henderson is just flat out bad strategy.

 

Equally with the Lions trading Slay for two mid round picks. The slight distinction I make there is even if they still had Slay I am not sure what the right alternative was for that pick. Other than maybe gamble on Tua and sit him for a year or two. 

 

I'd have taken that TE all day and twice on sunday.

 

[jrober38]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I find it amazing that the same teams seem to just continue their senseless, losing ways.

 

These owners are rich beyond imagination. Are all of them actual billionaires? How they got to be just so wealthy when they can't see their way past these dumb, easy to correct mistakes is beyond me.

 

I agree. 

 

I've said for about 10 years now that the NFL is so flawed because what constitutes a scouting "expert"? 

 

Reality is this has been, and in most cases continues to be an old boys club and you get jobs based off who you know, and how much people like you. 

 

No one goes to school to learn how to scout players. They might learn stuff along the way from mentors, but the number of blown draft picks, particularly in the top 10 has always been astounding to me. 

 

The Bills were in this trap from 2000 to 2017 when Russ Brandon was running the show. A football idiot, with no experience playing the game or scouting, some how buddied his way into an NFL Franchise, became the owner's pet, and within like 10 years was running the show despite horrendous results on the field year after year. Along the way, the Bills were drafting running backs and corner backs seemingly every year, despite never having a top 20 QB, and the results were top 12 picks essentially every year for 15 years. 

 

This happens all over the NFL. 

 

I think owners get lost in how easy it is to make money in this league, and each year when heads are on the chopping block these con artist GMs tell them to look at the bottom line, which is ultimately all they care about, or can comprehend because ultimately they're all successful business people, and somehow they keep their job for another losing season so that they can blow another first round pick on a player who won't impact their franchise's destiny. 

 

It's crazy. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by jrober38

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Re the Lions, I don’t know what the exact right strategy was but using a Top 5 pick on replacing a good player with a slightly cheaper player at the same position can’t be it.

 

A trade back was the right option but according to Shefy no firm offers. 

1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

I'd have taken that TE all day and twice on sunday.

 

 

You'd have been as wrong as the Lions. 

[Coach Tuesday]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

A trade back was the right option but according to Shefy no firm offers. 

 

You'd have been as wrong as the Lions. 

I mean, isn’t that why they keep drafting in the top 10?

[Bill from NYC]

I suppose that I would have taken Andrew Thomas. He shows signs of true greatness and could protect your QB and open up the run for many years. I am NOT saying that the corner isn't good, or even great. I don't know. What I do know that a trip on the defensive back merry go-round where you draft them early, lose them, and draft another one is a proven, guaranteed method to lose. I have seen it too many times.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I'm thinking there is like a 75% chance the Bills take a DB at 54, either Chinn/Dugger or Hall/Johnson.

 

I go back to the end of season presser when Beane spoke.  Two things stood out to me: he talked about looking at how you lost the last game of the season and how they weren't 1 player away.  

 

I'm not convinced that the secondary was a problem, nor that their depth is poor.  Drafting a DB just speaks to me as a defensive HC who can't let go of that side of the ball.  A guy who won't acknowledge their offense is now the more important side of the ball.  Because McD isn't gonna be graded on how well his secondary plays or even the defense as a whole.  

 

It's about Allen now and whether he's got enough weapons.  Because if one of the receivers goes down as of right now it's back to the Duke Williams/Foster/McKenzie parade of fringe NFL players.  

 

Then again, it all comes down to how things play out through pick 53.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

I suppose that I would have taken Andrew Thomas. He shows signs of true greatness and could protect your QB and open up the run for many years. I am NOT sating that the corner isn't good, or even great. I don't know. What I do know that a trip on the defensive back merry go-round where you draft them early, lose them, and draft another one is a proven, guaranteed method to lose. I have seen it too many times.

 

So I don't see greatness in Thomas. I think he has a very high floor and a low bust % but I am not convinced on his ceiling I think it is lowest of the top 4 tackles. Plus Taylor Decker (who I had the exact same grade on that I had on Thomas) is one of their best players so left tackle was not really a need in Detroit. I'd have more sympathy with the argument you take Jedrick Wills actually and plug him in at right tackle and say we are gonna have bookend tackles. 

 

The Lions haven't drafted defensive backs high a lot. Indeed @BillfromNYC I actually think the Lions are the argument against your general draft strategy. In SEVEN of the last ELEVEN drafts (ie. Since they took Stafford) they have done what you always implore teams to do - blockers and rushers. 7 of 11 first round picks on oline or dline. And they have still been bad. There is no magical positional formula to winning the draft. You have to be good talent evaluators and have a long term strategy. 

 

The 4 exceptions by the way are Okudah (who will be an elite corner), Jarrad  Davis (linebacker) and then Ebron and Hockenson (tight end). 

 

Now I will bash them for the two tight end picks. Tight End is above running back to me as the position you almost never spend a 1st on. 

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I go back to the end of season presser when Beane spoke.  Two things stood out to me: he talked about looking at how you lost the last game of the season and how they weren't 1 player away.  

 

I'm not convinced that the secondary was a problem, nor that their depth is poor.  Drafting a DB just speaks to me as a defensive HC who can't let go of that side of the ball.  A guy who won't acknowledge their offense is now the more important side of the ball.  Because McD isn't gonna be graded on how well his secondary plays or even the defense as a whole.  

 

It's about Allen now and whether he's got enough weapons.  Because if one of the receivers goes down as of right now it's back to the Duke Williams/Foster/McKenzie parade of fringe NFL players.  

 

Then again, it all comes down to how things play out through pick 53.  

 

Allen has more weapons that 80% of the QBs in the league.

 

If a starting WR gets hurt, every team in the league is going down to a replacement level player. 

[BillsVet]

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

Allen has more weapons that 80% of the QBs in the league.

 

If a starting WR gets hurt, every team in the league is going down to a replacement level player. 

 

Let's not conflate.  The teams winning deep in the playoffs aren't doing it with a surplus of secondary or LB talent.  Sure, they need to rush the passer and defend, but offense is how you advance.

 

I look at the AFC and the elite teams.  KC is at the top of the conference and they feature a stacked offense.  Baltimore scored a lot last season with Lamar and that offense featuring multiple TE's and some solid WR's.

 

Teams that cannot score at this level are left behind and no amount of DB talent is going to change that.  

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Just look at the McBeane Carolina Panthers. 

 

On offense they essentially had Cam Newton and nothing else.

 

They actually always had highly paid running backs. Stewart and Williams before him. They did try with receivers too. They just never had a great record evaluating them. Benjamin and Funchess etc. 

[jrober38]

5 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Let's not conflate.  The teams winning deep in the playoffs aren't doing it with a surplus of secondary or LB talent.  Sure, they need to rush the passer and defend, but offense is how you advance.

 

I look at the AFC and the elite teams.  KC is at the top of the conference and they feature a stacked offense.  Baltimore scored a lot last season with Lamar and that offense featuring multiple TE's and some solid WR's.

 

Teams that cannot score at this level are left behind and no amount of DB talent is going to change that.  

 

This is true for last year if you only look at the Chiefs. 

 

Looking back over the past 10 years, defense, for the most part, wins Championships. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by jrober38

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Let's not conflate.  The teams winning deep in the playoffs aren't doing it with a surplus of secondary or LB talent.  Sure, they need to rush the passer and defend, but offense is how you advance.

 

I look at the AFC and the elite teams.  KC is at the top of the conference and they feature a stacked offense.  Baltimore scored a lot last season with Lamar and that offense featuring multiple TE's and some solid WR's.

 

Teams that cannot score at this level are left behind and no amount of DB talent is going to change that.  

 

Those Baltimore tight ends were not ripping it up with Flacco. They are decent players but nothing special made to look better by their Quarterback. 

 

Baltimore's offense is driven by their Quarterback and their oline not their weapons. 

 

Kansas City have a stable of good weapons I agree but they have an all world QB too.

[BillsVet]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

This is true for last year if you only look at the Chiefs. 

Looking back over the past 10 years, defense, for the most part, wins Championships. 

 

I'm going to keep providing evidence.  Would you argue that the majority of the following teams were offensive driven or better defensively:

 

2019: Kansas City

2018: New England

2017: Philadelphia

2016: New England

2015: Denver

2014: New England

2013: Seattle

2012: Baltimore

2011: NY Giants

2010: Green Bay

 

Out of these teams, perhaps 3 SB winners were strong defensively and that carried them to the title: 2015 Denver, 2013 Seattle, and 2012 Baltimore.  The rest were teams that featured very strong offenses. I'm confident you'll respond and say that QB play is the way forward, but you see in GB an elite QB without much offensive skill talent struggling.  

[mannc]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I was not surprised to see the Jaguars and the Lions draft Top 10 first round DBs. Why not? Because one can make a case that these particular teams are long time second rate organizations. Their drafts are every bit as bad as ours in the "bad old days" or so it would seem.

The Lions were just so bad that they picked at #3. Could one even imagine how many problems they had to pick so early? They have a QB with a monster arm and there were receivers galore. They probably could have traded down and selected Lamb, Ruggs or Jeudy AND acquired extra picks but no; they really had to take that corner at #3. There were very good blockers available, and they could have even taken a QB to eventually replace Stafford. Incredible.

 

The Jags are another team that historically drafts poorly. They have issues galore. Their method of fixing said issues? A DB at #9. While unquestionably stupid, it was not quite on the same level of idiocy displayed by the ever horrible Lions, who would even appear to be tanking for Trevor.

 

I am on record as being skeptical of the trade for Diggs, but it looks wonderful compared to the above decisions.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

The funniest thing about this pick (other than the fact that it pretty much assures that this is Matt Patricia's last season in Detroit), is that there are plenty of scouts and experts who don't even consider Okudah the best CB in the draft.  He's probably not fast enough to cover the faster receivers in the league one-on-one.  For example, he had a difficult time against KJ Hamler from Penn State this year.   There's a good chance he'll be another Denzel Ward.  

[eball]

The Atlanta pick was the worst of the bunch!

[Jauronimo]

At what pick is it acceptable to select a DB? 

[mannc]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Those Baltimore tight ends were not ripping it up with Flacco. They are decent players but nothing special made to look better by their Quarterback. 

 

Baltimore's offense is driven by their Quarterback and their oline not their weapons. 

 

Kansas City have a stable of good weapons I agree but they have an all world QB too.

Look, there really isn't any debate that the Bills did not score enough points last season.  The defense played about as well as you can expect a defense to play in this modern era, and it still wasn't good enough to beat good teams.  Since they aren't about to replace the QB, the only solution is to give that QB better weapons, and one new WR isn't nearly enough.

Edited April 24, 2020 by mannc

[BillsVet]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Those Baltimore tight ends were not ripping it up with Flacco. They are decent players but nothing special made to look better by their Quarterback. 

 

Baltimore's offense is driven by their Quarterback and their oline not their weapons. 

 

Kansas City have a stable of good weapons I agree but they have an all world QB too.

 

Flacco left after the 2018 season.  Mark Andrews was a rookie that year, and Hayden Hurst was a second year player. 

 

Besides, their top 3 TE's were featured more in a rotation than one being a starter.  The sum though has been greater than the parts in that offense. .  

[Bill from NYC]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

. I'd have more sympathy with the argument you take Jedrick Wills actually and plug him in at right tackle and say we are gonna have bookend tackles. 

 

 

I love conversations like this.

Unless I was running to a men's room, I am thinking that I watched every play Of Wills' college career. He is very good and steady but he seemed to lose concentration and have a lot of penalties called on him. It would drive Saban nuts.

He is not what jumps out at me in terms of a top 5 or even 10 OT. Now we are getting into Orlando Pace territory. From what I saw, Thomas appears to be noticeably stronger. I am THE Crimson Tide Fan but agreed with Gettleman's choice. I hope I'm wrong because Wills was a very good player and I appreciate what he did for Bama.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Flacco left after the 2018 season.  Mark Andrews was a rookie that year, and Hayden Hurst was a second year player. 

 

Besides, their top 3 TE's were featured more in a rotation than one being a starter.  The sum though has been greater than the parts in that offense. .  

 

Yes because they have a playmaker at QB, an elite OT and a future hall of famer at guard. The tight ends are nice players. But they aren't elite weapons.

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

I love conversations like this.

Unless I was running to a men's room, I am thinking that I watched every play Of Wills' college career. He is very good and steady but he seemed to lose concentration and have a lot of penalties called on him. It would drive Saban nuts.

He is not what jumps out at me in terms of a top 5 or even 10 OT. Now we are getting into Orlando Pace territory. From what I saw, Thomas appears to be noticeably stronger. I am THE Crimson Tide Fan but agreed with Gettleman's choice. I hope I'm wrong because Wills was a very good player and I appreciate what he did for Bama.

 

That wasn't quite the argument. I would have taken Wirfs myself as the Giants but if not him then Thomas because the Giants needed a left tackle. The Lions do not need a left tackle was my point. They already have a really good one. An argument that someone who was a top end right tackle could go in there is one I have more sympathy with.