EJ Manuel Reflects On His Career As The Bills Future QB

[Capco]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

???

Bledsoe in his first year and Fitz we’re both decidedly better.

Not throwing the ball anywhere NEAR a defender has a way of skewing TTs stats.

Two games to watch: The playoff game and the Carolina game. One at the beginning of the season and one at the end. They tell you all you’ll ever need to know about TTs lack ofQB acumen.

 

Ah yes, I forgot how we went to the playoffs under Bledsoe and Fitz.  Oh wait...

[34-78-83]

On 4/17/2020 at 12:51 PM, T master said:

EJ was always a pro Bills type player & like our QB now had a lot of the same type of things said about him as they were said about Josh but unlike Josh had way to many coaching changes & support from those coaches to further his career in a positive way !

 

Josh & EJ were both athletic QB's with a good arm but their accuracy had issues but i think that Josh is in a much better position due to the stability McBeane & company have brought to the team . 

 

If Josh was in the same situation as EJ i think his future could very much resemble that of EJ's & other QB's that the Bills have brought in over the years .

I don't think they are even close to comparable type of players at any point. One is a fiery competitor that likes to put the team on his back, throws far more accurately than the other and has a much stronger arm. The other could not execute a short pass (not just coming in but season after season), didn't want the spotlight and was a mellow guy. Both are very good people, I suppose you can count that.

[Happy]

52 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Also when Kolb was hurt why wouldn’t they pick

up another QB? 

You fail to take into account trades.  You never know which QB’s could’ve been had for a 5th or 6th round pick as a temporary starter/mentor 

 

It's probable that nothing else was available at that time; Kolb got his bath mat concussion just before the season started.  Where would all these wonderful trades be at in August?  You really think Matt Moore, Brian Hoyer, or any of those other backup level QBs were better than Kolb?  Say they passed on Kolb and took Brian Hoyer, who would have most likely performed around average; the rest of the team wouldn't have been good enough to overcome this level of performance.  You and others would have complained about Whaley taking Hoyer.  Whaley had his hands tied in 2013, your dislike for him blinds you to seeing otherwise.  Again, Nix blew it in 2012 when he could have, and should have, picked up Alex Smith in FA.

[SirAndrew]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

???

Bledsoe in his first year and Fitz we’re both decidedly better.

Not throwing the ball anywhere NEAR a defender has a way of skewing TTs stats.

Two games to watch: The playoff game and the Carolina game. One at the beginning of the season and one at the end. They tell you all you’ll ever need to know about TTs lack ofQB acumen.

I wasn’t a TT fan, but I encourage you to watch the entire second half of Bledsoe’s first year, and the same with Fitz in 2011. TT was steady yet unspectacular for an entire season. Bledsoe and Fitz were great for half a season, and awful for the second half. Picking two games doesn’t tell the whole story. TT was a game manager who wasn’t going to win a Super Bowl, but could win by playing within the system. Bledsoe and Fitz were the reason their team lost many games. 

[Rico]

10 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I wasn’t a TT fan, but I encourage you to watch the entire second half of Bledsoe’s first year, and the same with Fitz in 2011. TT was steady yet unspectacular for an entire season. Bledsoe and Fitz were great for half a season, and awful for the second half. Picking two games doesn’t tell the whole story. TT was a game manager who wasn’t going to win a Super Bowl, but could win by playing within the system. Bledsoe and Fitz were the reason their team lost many games. 

If 2017 TT was the QB for the Bills in the 2004 game against the Steelers, absolutely no doubt Bills would have won.

[TheCockSportif]

5 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

???

Bledsoe in his first year and Fitz we’re both decidedly better.

Not throwing the ball anywhere NEAR a defender has a way of skewing TTs stats.

Two games to watch: The playoff game and the Carolina game. One at the beginning of the season and one at the end. They tell you all you’ll ever need to know about TTs lack ofQB acumen.

I don't get the dislike of TT.  I really don't.  Was he going to elevate his play and take the Bills to the playoffs on a regular basis, deep into the playoffs, and/or to the Super Bowl?  Probably not, if almost certainly not.  But I remain of the opinion that he brought stability (not greatness, but stability) to the QB position while the team tried to figure the roster out.  EJ was a flame out.  Orton wasn't coming back.  Cassel, uh, no.  Peterman, definitely no.  Etc, etc, etc. 

 

Getting rid of the lousy FO situation, bringing in capable coaching, and yes having TT under center in the interim finally seems to have stabilized my favorite moribund NFL team.

[Phil The Thrill]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

It's probable that nothing else was available at that time; Kolb got his bath mat concussion just before the season started.  Where would all these wonderful trades be at in August?  You really think Matt Moore, Brian Hoyer, or any of those other backup level QBs were better than Kolb?  Say they passed on Kolb and took Brian Hoyer, who would have most likely performed around average; the rest of the team wouldn't have been good enough to overcome this level of performance.  You and others would have complained about Whaley taking Hoyer.  Whaley had his hands tied in 2013, your dislike for him blinds you to seeing otherwise.  Again, Nix blew it in 2012 when he could have, and should have, picked up Alex Smith in FA.

Do you honesty feel Kolb was the best answer possible?????  Answer that directory.  
 

I think it was understood that when Marrone took over on 2013, the team probably wasn’t going to be competitive.  But they were taking a rookie and the plan was to have him sit.  The difference between Houer or Matt Moore is that neither had an injury history.  They actually....you know would have allowed the “plan” to take it course.  They’d get between 6-8 starts

before turning the reigns over EJ.  If Hoyer performed average fans would be ok, knowing he ‘s short term and EJ was the “future.”

 

Do you honestly think that Kolb was the best choice available?  Because I don’t.  A 5th year QB who hasn’t finished an entire season and was 1 concussion away from retirement.   Why not sign Kolb and a Hoyer or Anderson?  OR maybe make a trade like teams do every season.
 

The Bills has 2 whole seasons to create a contingency plan at QB.  TheIr answer was....Kevin Kolb.

 

I don’t have “blind hate” for Doug Whaley.  I think he was a below average GM.  Listening to the Whaley apologists make all of these excuses, just makes me want to echo my thoughts.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Groin said:

I don't get the dislike of TT.  I really don't.  Was he going to elevate his play and take the Bills to the playoffs on a regular basis, deep into the playoffs, and/or to the Super Bowl?  Probably not, if almost certainly not.  But I remain of the opinion that he brought stability (not greatness, but stability) to the QB position while the team tried to figure the roster out.  EJ was a flame out.  Orton wasn't coming back.  Cassel, uh, no.  Peterman, definitely no.  Etc, etc, etc. 

 

Getting rid of the lousy FO situation, bringing in capable coaching, and yes having TT under center in the interim finally seems to have stabilized my favorite moribund NFL team.

I think that part of the problem was that Tyrod was being positions as the team’s answer at QB after 2015.  At the time, we didn’t know where his ceiling was.  I think that it was understood that he was a placeholder for a rookie, that fans would have been a bit more forgiving 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Phil The Thrill

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Do you honesty feel Kolb was the best answer possible?????  Answer that directory.

 

I'll answer it directly, since I don't have a directory of answers.  If Kolb was a better QB than, say Moore or Hoyer, it wasn't by much; they were all of backup quality.  The Kolb concussion history was a gamble, for sure, but who would have guessed he'd end his career by slipping on a bath mat.  Freak accident.

 

They could have brought in Moore or Hoyer and guess what, their production would have been bad to mediocre and calls for EJ to start would become deafening.  EJ would still be in the league had he been behind Rodgers, Manning(s), Brady, Brees, etc where he wouldn't have seen the field much at all.  The Bills were in a bad position going into the 2013 draft needing a QB.  Where Whaley screwed up was doubling down on EJ by moving up to draft Sammy.

 

So now he had a mess on his hands with a starting QB who was really a backup, and a WR1 who was really a WR2.  Whaley could have cut bait in 2014 and if he was lucky, drafted Bridewater, Derek Carr, or Garappolo, but he also could have wiffed and taken Bortles or McCarron.  Not much good in 2014 or 2015 as far as rookie QBs.

[TheCockSportif]

3 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I think that part of the problem was that Tyrod was being positions as the team’s answer at QB after 2015.  At the time, we didn’t know where his ceiling was.  I think that it was understood that he was a placeholder for a rookie, that fans would have been a bit more forgiving 

 

Without question TT was the best answer going into 2016.  No way I was going to talk myself into EJ again or to Cardale freaking Jones.  We don't know what the org believed because Rex would say anything at any given time -- in an attempt to pump up a lackluster coaching effort.

 

I will say that in my lifetime I have witnessed the following players under center for the Bills (excluding guys like Flutie and Kelly and Fergy and Bledsoe, obviously in no specific order), and it was underwhelming to say the least:

• Joe Dufek
• Vince Ferragamo
• Matt Kofler
• Bruce Mathison
• Alex Van Pelt
• Billy Joe Hobert
• Rob Johnson
• Travis Brown
• Kelly Holcomb
• Brian Brohm
• Trent Edwards
• Levi Brown
• Tyler Thigpen
• Jeff Tuel
• Thad Lewis
• EJ Manuel
• JP Losman

And that's really just the tip of the iceberg.  I have seen astoundingly lousy quarterback play from this team since I became conscious of watching OJ and crew in my grandparents' apartment in Buffalo, in 1974.  Other QBs have adorned us with their presence, and that list above was just off the top of my head.

 

Given what I noted above though, TT was way, way more stable than any of those cats.  If you come back and say that TT was JAG then I agree.  I can't argue that TT was the organization's only plan though.  Because until the coaching regime and FO changed, I'm not entirely sure that they had a plan.

 

 

[Phil The Thrill]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I'll answer it directly, since I don't have a directory of answers.  If Kolb was a better QB than, say Moore or Hoyer, it wasn't by much; they were all of backup quality.  The Kolb concussion history was a gamble, for sure, but who would have guessed he'd end his career by slipping on a bath mat.  Freak accident.

 

They could have brought in Moore or Hoyer and guess what, their production would have been bad to mediocre and calls for EJ to start would become deafening.  EJ would still be in the league had he been behind Rodgers, Manning(s), Brady, Brees, etc where he wouldn't have seen the field much at all.  The Bills were in a bad position going into the 2013 draft needing a QB.  Where Whaley screwed up was doubling down on EJ by moving up to draft Sammy.

 

So now he had a mess on his hands with a starting QB who was really a backup, and a WR1 who was really a WR2.  Whaley could have cut bait in 2014 and if he was lucky, drafted Bridewater, Derek Carr, or Garappolo, but he also could have wiffed and taken Bortles or McCarron.  Not much good in 2014 or 2015 as far as rookie QBs.

Fair assessment thought I don’t think Kolb was much better than Moore or Hoyer.  Also with his injury history, there’s a very good chance that had he not met his demise with the bath may, it could’ve happened on the field.  I just think there were options that could have been taken in 2013.

 

Maybe the reason why they didn’t is because they evaluated EJ much higher he was in actuality - who knows?

 

Either way - I think we can agree QB was mismanaged throughout this administration and as a Bills fan, it was one of the more frustrating periods - though as sad as it is, Orton did give a faint glimmer of hope.

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Here is the 2013 NFL FA QB list:

 

Joe Flacco
Matt Moore
Tarvaris Jackson
Jason Campbell
David Garrard
Josh Johnson
Byron Leftwich
Brady Quinn
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
Rex Grossman
David Carr
Derek Anderson
Drew Stanton
Chase Daniel
Brian Hoyer
Charlie Batch
Bruce Gradkowski
Kellen Clemens
Tyler Thigpen
Josh McCown
Sage Rosenfels
Seneca Wallace
Donovan McNabb
A.J. Feeley
Troy Smith
Luke McCown
Chris Redman
John Beck
Jordan Palmer
J.P. Losman
Kevin O'Connell

 

Who on that list were we going to acquire back in 2013?  McNabb, Flacco....um, no.  Stop acting like there were any good options in 2013, because there wasn't.  As I mentioned before, 2012 is where they blew it and could have grabbed Alex Smith.

I don't think that was likely as the 49ers weren't going to let him go after a decent 2011 season under Harbaugh.  Most of us were still high on Fitz as we blamed his rib injury along with injuries to Jackson, our o-line, and Stevie for his poor finish in 2011 after a really hot start.  Good Fitz/Bad Fitz wasn't as established a trend.  There was a lot of debate about upgrading his backup through the draft in the mid to later rounds.  Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins were names floated out there. 

 

In typical Bills fashion we decided let's just bring Vince Young in to compete for that backup role with Thigpen.  When that didn't work out we thought Tarvaris Jackson could be a good idea.  Just really bad timing going into 2013 in desperate need of a franchise QB in possibly the worst crop of QB draft prospects in recent memory.

[Happy]

11 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I don't think that was likely as the 49ers weren't going to let him go after a decent 2011 season under Harbaugh.  Most of us were still high on Fitz as we blamed his rib injury along with injuries to Jackson, our o-line, and Stevie for his poor finish in 2011 after a really hot start.  Good Fitz/Bad Fitz wasn't as established a trend.  There was a lot of debate about upgrading his backup through the draft in the mid to later rounds.  Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins were names floated out there. 

 

In typical Bills fashion we decided let's just bring Vince Young in to compete for that backup role with Thigpen.  When that didn't work out we thought Tarvaris Jackson could be a good idea.  Just really bad timing going into 2013 in desperate need of a franchise QB in possibly the worst crop of QB draft prospects in recent memory.

 

Alex Smith went to the Chiefs in 2013.  Jim Harbaugh went with Kapernick in 2013 over Alex Smith.  I'm pretty sure I remember Alex Smith being mentioned as a possibility around here back in 2012/13.  But yeah, it was a disaster in Buffalo during that time.

[Buddo]

Not read all of this, but imho, the first mistake was cutting Jackson, who was an eminently tough QB, in favour of the fragile Kolb.

 

While it was a freak accident, Kolb was an accident waiting to happen in an actual game. Plenty of people were predicting that. Which meant that EJ was going to have to start far sooner than the supposed 'plan'.

 

Ironically, Beane and McDermott didn't learn from some Bills past history in respect of how they mishandled Allen's first year - at least the early part of it.

[Rico]

6 minutes ago, Buddo said:

Not read all of this, but imho, the first mistake was cutting Jackson, who was an eminently tough QB, in favour of the fragile Kolb.

 

While it was a freak accident, Kolb was an accident waiting to happen in an actual game. Plenty of people were predicting that. Which meant that EJ was going to have to start far sooner than the supposed 'plan'.

 

Ironically, Beane and McDermott didn't learn from some Bills past history in respect of how they mishandled Allen's first year - at least the early part of it.

Yeah, I was never ever a Tarvaris Jackson fan (may  he RIP) but he was a much, much better choice than a piece of trash like Kolb (and please don’t someone bring up his stats, because as we all know, stats are for losers, just like Kevin Kolb).

[Phil The Thrill]

21 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Alex Smith went to the Chiefs in 2013.  Jim Harbaugh went with Kapernick in 2013 over Alex Smith.  I'm pretty sure I remember Alex Smith being mentioned as a possibility around here back in 2012/13.  But yeah, it was a disaster in Buffalo during that time.

You are right here, from what I remember.  The rumour was that potential head coaching candidates in 2012 were asked about potential scenarios with a QB like Alex Smith.  Like you said, they should’ve made a move while they had a chance.  

[Phil The Thrill]

16 minutes ago, Buddo said:

Not read all of this, but imho, the first mistake was cutting Jackson, who was an eminently tough QB, in favour of the fragile Kolb.

 

While it was a freak accident, Kolb was an accident waiting to happen in an actual game. Plenty of people were predicting that. Which meant that EJ was going to have to start far sooner than the supposed 'plan'.

 

Ironically, Beane and McDermott didn't learn from some Bills past history in respect of how they mishandled Allen's first year - at least the early part of it.

In his defense, Beane signed AJ McCarron to be the QB bridge/mentor to Allen.  The problem is, he had no interest in this role and (believe it or not) Peterman was playing well in the preseason.  
 

So it’s not exactly an identical situation but there are some similarities in the fact that both teams didn’t make a move when they should have.

 

After Kolb was hurt the Bills didn’t both signing anyone else, electing to start the year with 2 rookies at QB.

 

When McCarron was trades the Bills were ok with Allen and Peterman at QB.  They should have brought in a veteran like Derek Anderson earlier.  Beane has admitted that much.  

[Happy]

5 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

You are right here, from what I remember.  The rumour was that potential head coaching candidates in 2012 were asked about potential scenarios with a QB like Alex Smith.  Like you said, they should’ve made a move while they had a chance.  

 

They would have had to massively overpay Smith back then, but they also had to overpay for Mario Williams.

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I would agree but the real problem was that Nix and Whaley saw him as a franchise QB and drafted him in the middle of the first round.  
 

You draft QB’s that you can develop as functional backups in the late rounds - not the middle of Round 1.
 

They have EJ chances.  I don’t blame the team for not taking the time to groom his as a backup when he was drafted to be THE man.

 

 

and you and are talking about him with the major gift of hindsight. Of course they hoped he could be the guy. 

 

But as a prototype body with extensive starting time that the plan was to develop him behind someone tells you quite a bit. Also that they traded back to get him says a lot.
 

That they could’ve secured the top guy on their list at 8 and the first qb off the board but dropped to the teens says “we need a qb, we don’t love these QBs, but we have to take our best swing still“

 

That he we did little to support him is a problem.

 

any qb taken, say, 4th through 90th is “let’s roll the dice on it but he’s probably some other teams backup in a few years”

[Phil The Thrill]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

and you and are talking about him with the major gift of hindsight. Of course they hoped he could be the guy. 

 

But as a prototype body with extensive starting time that the plan was to develop him behind someone tells you quite a bit. Also that they traded back to get him says a lot.
 

That they could’ve secured the top guy on their list at 8 and the first qb off the board but dropped to the teens says “we need a qb, we don’t love these QBs, but we have to take our best swing still“

 

That he we did little to support him is a problem.

 

any qb taken, say, 4th through 90th is “let’s roll the dice on it but he’s probably some other teams backup in a few years”

It’s not hindsight.  Most draft analysts and pro scouts that put a 3rd-5th grade on EJ.  He wasn’t even the first QB on many team’s draft boards.  
 

When you draft a player in the first round that the majority of teams think is a mid/round selection, because you think he can be a franchise QB.... that’s the problem.

[Sweats]

Believe it or not, but some QB's just aren't cut out for the NFL.......E.J. should never have been picked in the draft where he was. He was clearly a work in progress.