Tre White - Best in the League?

[Buffalo716]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

White is critical to way the whole scheme operates. If you don't have White able to match up 1 on 1 you can't play the cover 3 McDermott wants to play and you end up in more of a tampa 2 shell. We have seen - think early in 2018 - that when this team gets in a rut defensively it generally comes in the Tampa 2 where they can't get the extra guy down in the box. The stuff the Bills do with their coverage is as advanced as anyone in the league. They are pretty vanilla up front and extremely complex on the backend. So for this team, losing the best guy out of that secondary.... yea..  I think it would be in the region of a touchdown per game. Because it isn't just the drop off from White to Wallace or White to Norman. It is the drop off from a defense that has its who defensive call sheet available to one that suddenly loses half of it. 

McDermott actually probably ran more cover 4 palms than cover 3 last season. It's actually what has made the defense more complex running the palms coverage

Edited April 17, 2020 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

So we need to overpay a zone CB to send a message to other players? If we pay White 100 mil and Allen 130 mil how the hell do we sign any of those other players. I would rather keep Edmunds, Oliver and Milano over paying a zone CB a astronomical contract. Cover LB like Edmunds and Milano are hard to find, DT’s that can rush the passer and blow up running lanes are hard to find. Finding a solid/good zone CB, not that hard to find.

 

But White isn't just a "solid/good zone corner" that is where your analysis falls down. 

4 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Not only is that but let’s add, on top of of this, that he seems to make all his plays in the CLUTCH. 
 

Rookie year he essentially wins the Bucs game with a strip and recovery. He seals the KC game with a pick. 
 

Last season he turned around or closed out 3 games for them. That’s MASSIVE. he seals a win vs cincy with a pick. He single handedly turned around the fins game with a HUGE pick at the 2yd line and then a strip the very next drive. And let’s toss in the 4th quarter int that ignited the comeback win in PITT. 
 

Some guys just show up in those moments. Those are the ones you shouldn’t have a problem paying. 

 

And he had a strip fumble in the playoff game that the offense only turned into 3 points when 7 probably puts the game away. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

The bold is a big problem.  Putting pressure on the opposing offense backfield goes a long way to helping out our defensive backfield.  I really don't understand the desire to go vanilla up front, though I do get the complexities in back such as disguising coverages which is a smart tactic.  Supplement what you're doing in back with an aggressive front; you'll have the #1 ranked defense, then.  You'll only be so good being DB-centric; you can't out cover the receivers to win in the NFL today, though it seems McD wants to do just that.

 

I am afraid this comes down to your stylistic preference. But McDermott's record suggests otherwise. He has consistently fielded top defenses with his approach. The Legion of Boom in Seattle was similar - they at their best were very vanilla up front and beat you with clever coverage. On the flip side Rex Ryan was as exotic as anyone with his front 7 and his secondary was torched consistently despite featuring two corners who have since won Superbowls. You can say that it isn't stylistically the defense you would want to see the team run.... but saying you can't win that way? Yea the evidence is against you I am afraid. 

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am afraid this comes down to your stylistic preference. But McDermott's record suggests otherwise. He has consistently fielded top defenses with his approach. The Legion of Boom in Seattle was similar - they at their best were very vanilla up front and beat you with clever coverage. On the flip side Rex Ryan was as exotic as anyone with his front 7 and his secondary was torched consistently despite featuring two corners who have since won Superbowls. You can say that it isn't stylistically the defense you would want to see the team run.... but saying you can't win that way? Yea the evidence is against you I am afraid. 

I wouldn't even say Sean is super vanilla up front

 

He runs plenty of stunts , twists. Frazier dials up overload blitzes and safety blitzes at very good times as well

 

The back end is so talented and disguises everything so well it just makes the front look vanilla. It's far from super plain but it's not exotic. And it's very efficient, which is key

Edited April 17, 2020 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I wouldn't even say Sean is super vanilla up front

 

He runs plenty of stunts , twists. Frazier dials up overload blitzes and safety blitzes at very good times as well

 

The back end is so talented and disguises everything so well it just makes the front look vanilla. It's far from super plain but it's not exotic. And it's very efficient, which is key

 

Yea that is fair. Let's say they are more routinely vanilla up front with some well timed change ups. What they do on the backend is much more advanced on a down in and down out basis. And you are right. They key is it is efficient. You can win that way. McDermott's track record proves it and the Seahawks prove it and Dan Quinn's Falcons made the Superbowl with a similar (though not exactly the same) basic philosophy too.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea that is fair. Let's say they are more routinely vanilla up front with some well timed change ups. What they do on the backend is much more advanced on a down in and down out basis. And you are right. They key is it is efficient. You can win that way. McDermott's track record proves it and the Seahawks prove it and Dan Quinn's Falcons made the Superbowl with a similar (though not exactly the same) basic philosophy too.

keep in mind that Sean also is a huge proponent of going dual a gap on 3rd down. Which legendary Jim Johnson was an innovator at

 

It is far from plain and honestly my favorite formation for any third-down look

[Royale with Cheese]

13 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I would rather have a defense that is more line focused since that tends to put more pressure on the QB, who will get rid of the ball before he wants to as well as make errant throws.  Playing a largely vanilla front and relying on coverage will only do so much since the NFL favors the offense (more defensive PI flags); you ultimately should do both - an aggressive, attacking front and disguised coverages in the back.  I don't agree with a DB-focused defensive scheme.

 

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to pay a DB big money, but would rather allocate resources to the d-line, first.  If you pay Tre $16M per season, what are you going to sacrifice to do so?  The other DB's?  D-line?  LB?   I'd rather have higher paid/better DE's and DT's as they will make an average backfield look good.  I've seen Tre get beat by a number of receivers in man coverage enough to think twice about paying him elite money.  His big plays have been in zone situations, and I think he tends to struggle in man coverage with a lot of field behind him.  In shorter field situations, Tre seems to be better in man coverage, which could explain him not giving up a TD.  Other posters have pointed out that all CB's get beat, which I agree with; paying a CB big money doesn't make sense and I don't see it as a premium position...not in today's NFL.

 

We do put resources in the defensive line.  We signed 3 this offseason and drafted Oliver with our first pick last year.

It doesn't matter if it's a big contract to a corner, defensive end, WR etc.....the salary cap hit is still the same.

So your'e saying it didn't make sense that the Pats paid Gilmore?  

 

I don't see how you don't think corner isn't a premier position when the NFL is a passing league.  If corner wasn't a big deal, then you wouldn't see them taking early consistently in the draft and you'd just rely on them in the later rounds.

[BeastMaster]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We do put resources in the defensive line.  We signed 3 this offseason and drafted Oliver with our first pick last year.

It doesn't matter if it's a big contract to a corner, defensive end, WR etc.....the salary cap hit is still the same.

So your'e saying it didn't make sense that the Pats paid Gilmore?  

 

I don't see how you don't think corner isn't a premier position when the NFL is a passing league.  If corner wasn't a big deal, then you wouldn't see them taking early consistently in the draft and you'd just rely on them in the later rounds.

In McDermott's system, I believe it's easier to find corners that can play their part in a zone based scheme.

 

That being said, Tre White has above average ball skills and instincts, and is also solid playing man.

 

He's a valuable piece, but I could see the argument being made to eventually move on from him at a certain price with a replacement being groomed.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

In McDermott's system, I believe it's easier to find corners that can play their part in a zone based scheme.

 

That being said, Tre White has above average ball skills and instincts, and is also solid playing man.

 

He's a valuable piece, but I could see the argument being made to eventually move on from him at a certain price with a replacement being groomed.

People overestimate how hard playing corner in any scheme is

 

Also it's not like McDermott run 80% zone coverage. It's about 60/40 and he really likes man to man on third down. Tre is huge do what we do

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

In McDermott's system, I believe it's easier to find corners that can play their part in a zone based scheme.

 

That being said, Tre White has above average ball skills and instincts, and is also solid playing man.

 

He's a valuable piece, but I could see the argument being made to eventually move on from him at a certain price with a replacement being groomed.

 

We've had roughly 5-6 starting corners opposite of White since he got here.  We haven't been able to get the #2 position solidified in 3 years so I think it's a little more difficult than you think.

White is a special player with elite talent....he makes our defense so much better.  I think it can be argued that of all the injuries to our defense....he would be the most critical.

 

Our DL is a heavy rotation.  Our top DE's play about 60% of the snaps....White plays 100%.  Seems to me we are more of a DL by committee because we just rotate fresh bodies all the time.  Would we really want pay a top DE the highest end of the range sitting on the sidelines 40% of the time?

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

People overestimate how hard playing corner in any scheme is

 

Also it's not like McDermott run 80% zone coverage. It's about 60/40 and he really likes man to man on third down. Tre is huge do what we do

 

Yep. This idea that Tre White "can only play zone" I mean do people not actually watch the games? Not expecting everyone to be able to recognise every coverage as well as you do 716 - you are one of the best posters we have in that regard - but amazes me that we have people who supposedly watch the games each week and can't spot even at a basic level man vs zone. Tre plays plenty of man in our scheme. Even in what are essentially zone concepts at times they will basically play Tre 1:1 in a man type look and roll the coverage the other way. 

[Stank_Nasty]

14 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We've had roughly 5-6 starting corners opposite of White since he got here.  We haven't been able to get the #2 position solidified in 3 years so I think it's a little more difficult than you think.

White is a special player with elite talent....he makes our defense so much better.  I think it can be argued that of all the injuries to our defense....he would be the most critical.

 

Our DL is a heavy rotation.  Our top DE's play about 60% of the snaps....White plays 100%.  Seems to me we are more of a DL by committee because we just rotate fresh bodies all the time.  Would we really want pay a top DE the highest end of the range sitting on the sidelines 40% of the time?

can anyone name a bills defender in the previous 10-15 years that had such a knack for "clutch" type plays as white? I having a hard time figuring out how a handful of people aren't noticing this. not only is the guy consistently very good, but he routinely rises up in big moments. great ones do that! just this last year he sealed or debatably just flat out won us 3 different games. we're talking about a single cornerback impacting the outcome of MULTIPLE games... there MIGHT be a handful of db's throughout the NFL that can make that sort of claim right now.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This idea that Tre White "can only play zone" I mean do people not actually watch the games? Not expecting everyone to be able to recognise every coverage as well as you do 716 - you are one of the best posters we have in that regard - but amazes me that we have people who supposedly watch the games each week and can't spot even at a basic level man vs zone. Tre plays plenty of man in our scheme. Even in what are essentially zone concepts at times they will basically play Tre 1:1 in a man type look and roll the coverage the other way. 

 

I don't think most casual fans can't recognize the difference....I can't in a broadcast view live.  This is why I read and listen to you, 716, Bandit, Kirby....so I can get real information.

 

I don't know if you were on BBMB before it shutdown but there was a large percentage of posters who thought Gilmore was either a bust or average/below average.

They didn't know what they were looking at.  They just saw Gilmore in the area of a completed pass and then assumed it was him that blew the coverage.  That shows the level of recognition of the casual fan.

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This idea that Tre White "can only play zone" I mean do people not actually watch the games? Not expecting everyone to be able to recognise every coverage as well as you do 716 - you are one of the best posters we have in that regard - but amazes me that we have people who supposedly watch the games each week and can't spot even at a basic level man vs zone. Tre plays plenty of man in our scheme. Even in what are essentially zone concepts at times they will basically play Tre 1:1 in a man type look and roll the coverage the other way. 

When we were talking yesterday I brought that up under the palms coverage. Palms is a modified cover 4 which CAN turn into man based on the looks and route combos the offense gives you

 

 

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't think most casual fans can't recognize the difference....I can't in a broadcast view live.  This is why I read and listen to you, 716, Bandit, Kirby....so I can get real information.

 

I don't know if you were on BBMB before it shutdown but there was a large percentage of posters who thought Gilmore was either a bust or average/below average.

They didn't know what they were looking at.  They just saw Gilmore in the area of a completed pass and then assumed it was him that blew the coverage.  That shows the level of recognition of the casual fan.

And who was Gilmore's number one supporter on bbmb?!

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

When we were talking yesterday I brought that up under the palms coverage. Palms is a modified cover 4 which CAN turn into man based on the looks and route combos the offense gives you

 

Yep. Now I am not expecting everyone to recognise or diagnose that but be able to recognise at a basic level zone or man I do expect a fan who watches every game to be able to spot the difference. 

[Happy]

42 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We do put resources in the defensive line.  We signed 3 this offseason and drafted Oliver with our first pick last year.

It doesn't matter if it's a big contract to a corner, defensive end, WR etc.....the salary cap hit is still the same.

So your'e saying it didn't make sense that the Pats paid Gilmore?  

 

I don't see how you don't think corner isn't a premier position when the NFL is a passing league.  If corner wasn't a big deal, then you wouldn't see them taking early consistently in the draft and you'd just rely on them in the later rounds.

 

You have to put resources in every position.  As far as the d-line, we lost Shaq and Jordan Phillips so you have to replace them.  

I don't get what you're saying in the bolded part.  The cap hit to a big contract CB is the same as a contract hit to a mid priced defensive end?

I thought it was nuts that the Pats paid Gilmore, but it worked.  His career took off in NE and he's a pretty good man to man corner.  It also helps that NE can put pressure on the QB much better than we can.

So everyone takes CB's early?  

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. Now I am not expecting everyone to recognise or diagnose that but be able to recognise at a basic level zone or man I do expect a fan who watches every game to be able to spot the difference. 

Some people just like the sport because it interests them and entertains them. They really have no clue about the x's and o's

 

I was a long time  defensive back so I can just pick this up naturally

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't think most casual fans can't recognize the difference....I can't in a broadcast view live.  This is why I read and listen to you, 716, Bandit, Kirby....so I can get real information.

 

I don't know if you were on BBMB before it shutdown but there was a large percentage of posters who thought Gilmore was either a bust or average/below average.

They didn't know what they were looking at.  They just saw Gilmore in the area of a completed pass and then assumed it was him that blew the coverage.  That shows the level of recognition of the casual fan.

 

@Buffalo716 is a master at this stuff. He is the guy to listen to. 

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Some people just like the sport because it interests them and entertains them. They really have no clue about the x's and o's

 

I was a long time  defensive back so I can just pick this up naturally

 

But surely just a bit of osmosis some of it must sink in? ?

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't think most casual fans can't recognize the difference....I can't in a broadcast view live.  This is why I read and listen to you, 716, Bandit, Kirby....so I can get real information.

 

I don't know if you were on BBMB before it shutdown but there was a large percentage of posters who thought Gilmore was either a bust or average/below average.

They didn't know what they were looking at.  They just saw Gilmore in the area of a completed pass and then assumed it was him that blew the coverage.  That shows the level of recognition of the casual fan.

Just listen to what I tell you and everything will be ok

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

@Buffalo716 is a master at this stuff. He is the guy to listen to. 

 

But surely just a bit of osmosis some of it must sink in? ?

Hahah I appreciate it buddy and I'm very impressed with your knowledge of the game that you learned from across the pond

 

You are definitely a honorary buffalonian for life